Rebranded Healing Surges In D&D Next

To sum up Mearls' idea on Hit Dice from his recent Legends & Lore post for those who haven't read it, the idea is that characters gain a pool of dice (the size of which depends on the class) that they can tap into for nonmagical healing inbetween encounters.

So during a short rest after a fight, Battleaxe Billy, 3rd level fighter, spends a Hit Dice to recover 1d10 hit points. He'll presumably have 2 Hit Dice more that he can use throughout the day. Some of these Hit Dice will be replenished during an extended rest.

In this regard, they work much like healing surges. The difference is that according to Mearls, Hit Dice account for non-magical healing whereas magical healing doesn't cost the recipient any Hit Dice to function.

To put it bluntly, I don't like it. I don't like it because having two separate healing systems is inelegant, and the divide between mundane and magical healing doesn't actually accomplish anything more than a spiritual placebo for people who took issue with the concept of healing surges and martial healing in the first place.

I personally think that healing surges as an easy, unified, neat mechanic for ALL healing should stay in the game, and I'm going to make a case for them here.
Now one of the primary criticisms that people have made about D&D 4th edition is that it limits the ability of some to suspend their willign suspension of disbelief. I believe that this is a valid and salient criticism, and the designers of D&DN have made a noticeable effort to make sure that the mechanics in the game, have some sort of explicit, easy to define, gameworld analog.

4E is notoriously jargo heavy, and Healing Surges are one of the most oft-cited offenders. However, I believe that all they need to be accepted by players of all editions is a bit of tweaking and some re-branding, so that they can easily fit within any playstyle and make sense in terms of the gameworld.

The first step to this, is to define what Hit Points actually are in descriptive terms, because they are just too abstract to make sense as a measure of pure meat and blood. Otherwise we'd have to accept that people can withstand several axe blows to the face and still fight with 100% efficacy.

So instead, we define hit points simply as "an abstract combination of physical and mental endurance", rather than point-for-point parity with physical wounds. This is not a 4E inventon mind you...hit points have been described this way since the olden days (See 1st edition DMG pg. 88; written by Papa Gygax himself).

See, hit points aren't about grit and realism...they're about John Wayne trading punches with Albert Dekker in "Old Oklahoma". They're about pulp-y action and adventure.

If Hit Points are just as much in the mind of the characters as they are in the muscle and sinew, then what does an axe blow mean to a PC? Well 4th edition gives us a very easy answer to that conundrum, with it's 100/50/25% value divide.

The first bit of re-branding that I would suggest is to change the term "healing surge value", to "wounded" so...

A creature at Full HP is "Uninjured".
A creature at 1/2 it's HP total is "Bloodied".
A creature at 1/4 it's HP total is "Wounded".
A creature at 0 HP is "Incapacitated".

See? Easily defined descriptors, with actual analogs within the game's fiction. Also, for players who aren't into Critical Existence Failure, this would be an easy place to graft injury penalties to.
The primary complaint that people have about the concept of "healing surges" is that they have actual no real world or literary counterpart to be compared to.

I mean, yes...there is a salient argument to the contrary. The idea of healing surges as deep reserves of mettle that the hero can draw upon in times of crisis to push themselves through their pain and persevere is a phenomena that is seen often in movies and literature. Also, accepting that Hit Points are mental as well as physical, anyone who has ever been to a personal trainer at the gym, or who has been through physical therapy has seen a version of this in play.

The reason why there is a disconnect between the 4E mechanic and this concept is that the term "healing surge" did not exist anywhere in the world until 4th edition. I mean, what exactly is a healing surge? There's no definition on Merriam-Webster. The term has never been in any fantasy novel that I've read. Even D&D novels. This is some of that game jargon that D&D is infamous for.

Therefore, the second bit of rebranding that I propose is changing the name of "healing surges" to something less game-y like "vitality" or "endurance". Something that has a familiar analog that players can mentally grab onto so that they can better envision what is happening in the world of the game.

Besides being metagame-y, healing surges are often criticized as a resource management scheme as being too forgiving, as players regain their full suite of healing surges after each extended rest, limiting the feeling that what happens in the game world has actual lasting consequences. I would agree with this assessment in terms of the stated design goals that Mearls, Cook and the rest of the design team have shared, mainly putting the focus of D&D back on the adventure as a whole, rather than the individual encounter.

I believe that a Vitality mechanic can easily satisfy the needs of both playstyles.

What I propose is this:

Each character gets a certain amount of Vitality (measured in individual points) that acts as a well of inner mettle and resolve.

Taking a Second Wind action, or healing abilities such as a Cleric's Cure Wounds spell, allows a character to spend Vitality to regain lost hit poitns equal to their Wounded value (diminishing returns). Character's can only spend up to one point of vitality per hour (I'm just tossing out ideas here).

An night's rest of at least 6 hours allows characters to regain 1/2 lost vitality points (more diminishing returns).

An extended rest of at least 1 week, allows a character to regain all lost vitality (so between adventures, essentially).

This works because it limits resource replenishment, thereby refocusing on the adventure.

People who want a grittier style of game, or more of a 4E style encounter based game, can toggle the rules up or down.

Maybe an optional rule states that characters only regain 1 point of Vitality per night's rest, and only a 1/3 of their vitality total per week's rest. Maybe critical hits result in lasting wounds that permanently reduce vitality by 1 point.

Or perhaps another optional rule states that all Vitality is restored after a night's rest.

The point is that this mechanic can easily be re-fitted to other playstyles than just the 4E encounter based style.
TLDR version:

Hit Points = Abstract measure of physical and mental endurance, and not individual axe blows.

Creatures at full HP are "Uninjured".
Creatures at 1/2 of HP total are "Bloodied".
Creatures at 1/4 of HP total are "Wounded".
Creatures at 0 HP are "Incapacitated".

Change "Healing Surges" to "Vitality". Less jargon-y.

Vitality = deep rooted well of inner mettle and resolve.

Healing abilities allow a character to spend Vitality to restore HP equal to their wounded value.

Cap on how much vitality can be spent per hour.

Characters can replenish 1/2 of lost vitality points by resting for at least 6 hours.

Vitality replenishes completely between adventures.

These values can be toggled and adjusted to support multiple game styles.

I like the idea of if that if you are a 10th Level Fighter, you heal 10d10HD overnight (or am I totally wrong?).
I like the idea of if that if you are a 10th Level Fighter, you heal 10d10HD overnight (or am I totally wrong?).


You spend your HDs on a short rest.  You regain spent HDs on an extended rest.  So, a 10th level fighter can restore 10d10 HPs before needing to take an extended rest to replenish his HDs.

Edit: of course, that's all just self-healing.  Magical healing doesn't consume HDs.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Edit: of course, that's all just self-healing.  Magical healing doesn't consume HDs.



That's how I understood it.

It's inelegant compared to the healing surge mechanic.

It also places more emphasis on magical healing, therefore low-level sword and sorcery games are less viable under this system than they are in 4th editon. So no Conan game for Johnny.

Edit: of course, that's all just self-healing.  Magical healing doesn't consume HDs.



That's how I understood it.

It's inelegant compared to the healing surge mechanic.


Not really.  If you assume a static result, it basically is the healing surge mechanic (only it doesn't restrict magical healing).  Plus, we don't know if anything else will get added in yet.  You may get a bonus based on the results of Heal check, or for being trained in Heal, or you may be able to replace one of the HD roll results with the result of a Heal check.

As I said in the other thread about this topic, I'm hoping the Toughness feat (if it exists in DDN) will grant +3 HDs each time you take it.  At least then it will no longer be a trap option.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Not really.  If you assume a static result, it basically is the healing surge mechanic (only it doesn't restrict magical healing).  Plus, we don't know if anything else will get added in yet.  You may get a bonus based on the results of Heal check, or for being trained in Heal, or you may be able to replace one of the HD roll results with the result of a Heal check.

As I said in the other thread about this topic, I'm hoping the Toughness feat (if it exists in DDN) will grant +3 HDs each time you take it.  At least then it will no longer be a trap option.



It's inelegant in that rolling and adding up dice is an extra resolution step that the healing surge system does not require, AND having two separate sub-systems for magical and mundane healing is overly clunky. It is clunkiness for the sake of clunkiness and in any other form of technology, management would send it back to the design team for rework.

The proposed Hit Dice system is a double chin on an otherwise handsome face, and it needs to be sweated off.
TLDR version:

Hit Points = Abstract measure of physical and mental endurance, and not individual axe blows.

Creatures at full HP are "Uninjured".
Creatures at 1/2 of HP total are "Bloodied".
Creatures at 1/4 of HP total are "Wounded".
Creatures at 0 HP are "Incapacitated".

Change "Healing Surges" to "Vitality". Less jargon-y.

Vitality = deep rooted well of inner mettle and resolve.




I agree with this 100%

On that note, I'm willing to try something new...we could accomplish the same thing by renaming Hit Dice to Vitality Dice.  It just puts a heavier cap on how much Vitality one has in his/her inner reserves before needing to go see a doctor...and by doctor I mean a level 5 cleric.  :D

Not really.  If you assume a static result, it basically is the healing surge mechanic (only it doesn't restrict magical healing).  Plus, we don't know if anything else will get added in yet.  You may get a bonus based on the results of Heal check, or for being trained in Heal, or you may be able to replace one of the HD roll results with the result of a Heal check.

As I said in the other thread about this topic, I'm hoping the Toughness feat (if it exists in DDN) will grant +3 HDs each time you take it.  At least then it will no longer be a trap option.



It's inelegant in that rolling and adding up dice is an extra resolution step that the healing surge system does not require, AND having two separate sub-systems for magical and mundane healing is overly clunky. It is clunkiness for the sake of clunkiness and in any other form of technology, management would send it back to the design team for rework.

The proposed Hit Dice system is a double chin on an otherwise handsome face, and it needs to be sweated off.



Even 4e magical healing differed from non-magical healing.  As far as not liking to roll, then just assume static values on the dice.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.



I agree with this 100%

On that note, I'm willing to try something new...we could accomplish the same thing by renaming Hit Dice to Vitality Dice.  It just puts a heavier cap on how much Vitality one has in his/her inner reserves before needing to go see a doctor...and by doctor I mean a level 5 cleric.  :D



Personally, I always opt for the more streamlined and elegant solution. EVERY time.

The way healing surges work are quicker, easier and more elegant than the Hit Dice mechanic.


Even 4e magical healing differed from non-magical healing. 



Only in the fluff. Mechanically the warlords healing ability and the clerics worked much the exact same way.


 As far as not liking to roll, then just assume static values on the dice.



Why make it more unwieldy for the sheer sake of writing more words down? What is to be gained?



I agree with this 100%

On that note, I'm willing to try something new...we could accomplish the same thing by renaming Hit Dice to Vitality Dice.  It just puts a heavier cap on how much Vitality one has in his/her inner reserves before needing to go see a doctor...and by doctor I mean a level 5 cleric.  :D



Personally, I always opt for the more streamlined and elegant solution. EVERY time.

The way healing surges work are quicker, easier and more elegant than the Hit Dice mechanic.


Although I'm prone to hop on board and agree with you, I don't mind complexity if done right.  This could be a complete disaster, in which case I'll be full throttle on the healing surge (but renamed Vitality) page...

I'm just saying I'd be willing to give it a try as I appreciate the 'realism' aspect they are trying to incorporate.  However, I'd happily sacrifice little bits of realism that are overly complicated.  This doesn't sound too bad though.

Although I'm prone to hop on board and agree with you, I don't mind complexity if done right.  This could be a complete disaster, in which case I'll be full throttle on the healing surge (but renamed Vitality) page...

I'm just saying I'd be willing to give it a try as I appreciate the 'realism' aspect they are trying to incorporate.  However, I'd happily sacrifice little bits of realism that are overly complicated.  This doesn't sound too bad though.



Complexity for it's own sake is NEVER a good idea.

Do you like being handed forms to fill out whenever you have to deal with government agencies because of some arbitrary bureaucracy?

Because that's what unnecessary complexity is...arbitrary bureaucracy.

Any complexity that doesn't absolutely need to be there in order for the game to function is "too bad".



Although I'm prone to hop on board and agree with you, I don't mind complexity if done right.  This could be a complete disaster, in which case I'll be full throttle on the healing surge (but renamed Vitality) page...

I'm just saying I'd be willing to give it a try as I appreciate the 'realism' aspect they are trying to incorporate.  However, I'd happily sacrifice little bits of realism that are overly complicated.  This doesn't sound too bad though.



Complexity for it's own sake is NEVER a good idea.


Yeah.  And that's the problem right there.  You see it as complexity for its own sake.  Many of the rest of us see it as complexity for the purposed of fulfilling the stated design goal.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Although I'm prone to hop on board and agree with you, I don't mind complexity if done right.  This could be a complete disaster, in which case I'll be full throttle on the healing surge (but renamed Vitality) page...

I'm just saying I'd be willing to give it a try as I appreciate the 'realism' aspect they are trying to incorporate.  However, I'd happily sacrifice little bits of realism that are overly complicated.  This doesn't sound too bad though.



Complexity for it's own sake is NEVER a good idea.

Do you like being handed forms to fill out whenever you have to deal with government agencies because of some arbitrary bureaucracy?

Because that's what unnecessary complexity is...arbitrary bureaucracy.

Any complexity that doesn't absolutely need to be there in order for the game to function is "too bad".



I think you are confusing me with somebody who doesn't get your point.  I understand where you are coming from for a streamlined and simplistic point of view.  I however appreciate the nod to realism and that's why I'm willing to give it a try.  I don't feel it is unnecessary complex at this point, but like previously stated, if it drags the game down or feels unnecessary I will vote to scrap it entirely.

Yeah.  And that's the problem right there.  You see it as complexity for its own sake.  Many of the rest of us see it as complexity for the purposed of fulfilling the stated design goal.



And if the stated goal can be fulfilled in an easier way?

I think you are confusing me with somebody who doesn't get your point.  I understand where you are coming from for a streamlined and simplistic point of view.  I however appreciate the nod to realism and that's why I'm willing to give it a try.  I don't feel it is unnecessary complex at this point, but like previously stated, if it drags the game down or feels unnecessary I will vote to scrap it entirely.



I appreciate the nod to realism as well.

However, I think that there's a better way to go about it.

Consider:

Assume a 10th level fighter has 80 total hit points and takes a beating during an encounter, to the point where he is "bloodied".

Now which way is easier?

Spending 1 point of vitality and healing 20 hp.

Or spending 4 hit dice, rollign them and totalling them up?


Although I'm prone to hop on board and agree with you, I don't mind complexity if done right.  This could be a complete disaster, in which case I'll be full throttle on the healing surge (but renamed Vitality) page...

I'm just saying I'd be willing to give it a try as I appreciate the 'realism' aspect they are trying to incorporate.  However, I'd happily sacrifice little bits of realism that are overly complicated.  This doesn't sound too bad though.



Complexity for it's own sake is NEVER a good idea.

Do you like being handed forms to fill out whenever you have to deal with government agencies because of some arbitrary bureaucracy?

Because that's what unnecessary complexity is...arbitrary bureaucracy.

Any complexity that doesn't absolutely need to be there in order for the game to function is "too bad".



I think you are confusing me with somebody who doesn't get your point.  I understand where you are coming from for a streamlined and simplistic point of view.  I however appreciate the nod to realism and that's why I'm willing to give it a try.  I don't feel it is unnecessary complex at this point, but like previously stated, if it drags the game down or feels unnecessary I will vote to scrap it entirely.


In all honesty, there is no more of a nod to realism in this method of out-of-combat self healing than there was in 4e.  So 4e characters took a short rest and were healed.  If they were injured, I doubt they just left the wounds open and oozing.  I always imagined characters bandaging themselves and using holistic medicines when they healed themselves.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Yeah.  And that's the problem right there.  You see it as complexity for its own sake.  Many of the rest of us see it as complexity for the purposed of fulfilling the stated design goal.



And if the stated goal can be fulfilled in an easier way?



Healing surges doesn't fulfill the stated goal anymore than this does exactly what healing surges did.  Healing surges limited magical healing.  This does not.  While I agree that healing surges could be modified to do this, that's not necessarily the most effective way.  That's especially true when you realize that WotC is trying to appeal to a notoriously fickle fanbase.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


In all honesty, there is no more of a nod to realism in this method of out-of-combat self healing than there was in 4e.  So 4e characters took a short rest and were healed.  If they were injured, I doubt they just left the wounds open and oozing.  I always imagined characters bandaging themselves and using holistic medicines when they healed themselves.




Maybe not a nod to realism per se, but there is a more easily defineable gameworld analog to the mechanic.


Healing surges doesn't fulfill the stated goal anymore than this does exactly what healing surges did.  Healing surges limited magical healing.  This does not.  While I agree that healing surges could be modified to do this, that's not necessarily the most effective way.  That's especially true when you realize that WotC is trying to appeal to a notoriously fickle fanbase.



That wasn't what i asked you.


In all honesty, there is no more of a nod to realism in this method of out-of-combat self healing than there was in 4e.  So 4e characters took a short rest and were healed.  If they were injured, I doubt they just left the wounds open and oozing.  I always imagined characters bandaging themselves and using holistic medicines when they healed themselves.




Maybe not a nod to realism per se, but there is a more easily defineable gameworld analog to the mechanic.



Out-of-combat self-healing is only more easily defineable under the HD method if you didn't assume that 4e PCs actually bandaged or used other mundane means to heal themselves.  Since I always imagined that this was the case, it's a lateral move to me.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Healing surges doesn't fulfill the stated goal anymore than this does exactly what healing surges did.  Healing surges limited magical healing.  This does not.  While I agree that healing surges could be modified to do this, that's not necessarily the most effective way.  That's especially true when you realize that WotC is trying to appeal to a notoriously fickle fanbase.



That wasn't what i asked you.



It's where you appeared to be going.  I just took the freeway.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

While the Hit Dice system mentioned in the article and healing surges are similar, there are some differences asides from Hit Dice being randomized:

- In 4e during an extended rest you recover all your healing surges AND all your hit points. From the article it sounds like, at the moment, in DDN when you take an extended rest you recover all your Hit Dice but don't necessarily recover any hit points for free, you probably have to spend the Hit Dice you recovered to restore your lost hit points. Assuming that's correct it means if you are both wounded and have used most or all of your hit dice it will take at least two extended rests to fully recover without magic (one rest restores the Hit Dice, you spend them and get back to full health hopfully, then another extended rest to get back to full Hit Dice again).

- A healing surge is worth 25% of max health, whereas on average a single Hit Die's value decreases as you gain levels. For instance, healing one hit die is worth about half the hit points of a first level character but only worth about 1/20 of the hit points of a 10th level character (assuming your hit points go up by one die per level). Thus whereas it takes 4 healing surges for both a 1st level character and a 10th level character to fully heal from zero health, it takes about 2 hit Dice for the 1st level character and about 20 Hit Dice for the 10th level character to fully heal. That means that without knowing how many Hit Dice you have in reserves at various experience levels it's impossible to compare how easy or hard it is to naturally heal in DDN versus 4e.

- The article mentioned that healing spells in DDN don't spend Hit Dice, whereas most healing spells in 4e do spend healing surges. Likewise for healing potions.

- The article doesn't mention anything one way or another about whether there will be spells and items which require spending Hit Dice as a requirement similar to 4e power and items which cost healing surges. Personally I'm hoping DDN has some spells/powers/items that cost hit dice, but who knows?



So even if you did a house rule where you assumed all Hit Die rolls were average rounded up or down the system still would be a bit different from the 4e healing surge system. That could be good or bad depending on the details and on your opinion of 4e healing surges. (Personally I like the 4e healing system since I like having parties fully healed after an extended rest, but that's just me, and I be ok with the DDN system if parties are usually fully healed after one extended rest and just about always fully healed after two.)

Out-of-combat self-healing is only more easily defineable under the HD method if you didn't assume that 4e PCs actually bandaged or used other mundane means to heal themselves.  Since I always imagined that this was the case, it's a lateral move to me.



The only REAL difference is that the Hit Dice method explicitly states that characters are bandaging their wounds. It's purely a question of fluff and has nothing to do with the way the rules work.

There is nothing inherently more immersive about the mechanical functions of the hit dice riule, than the healing surge rule.

Healing surges doesn't fulfill the stated goal anymore than this does exactly what healing surges did.  Healing surges limited magical healing.  This does not.  While I agree that healing surges could be modified to do this, that's not necessarily the most effective way.  That's especially true when you realize that WotC is trying to appeal to a notoriously fickle fanbase.



That wasn't what i asked you.



It's where you appeared to be going.  I just took the freeway.



I'm trying to establish that elegant and streamlined is good...bloated and clunky is bad.

Out-of-combat self-healing is only more easily defineable under the HD method if you didn't assume that 4e PCs actually bandaged or used other mundane means to heal themselves.  Since I always imagined that this was the case, it's a lateral move to me.



The only REAL difference is that the Hit Dice method explicitly states that characters are bandaging their wounds. It's purely a question of fluff and has nothing to do with the way the rules work.

There is nothing inherently more immersive about the mechanical functions of the hit dice riule, than the healing surge rule.


Yes.  That was rather my point.  Since I always assumed bandaging was going on, the fluff isn't a change for me.

I'm trying to establish that elegant and streamlined is good...bloated and clunky is bad.


Assuming they accomplish the same ends, yes.  However, they don't.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Gizmoduck, what you described is pretty much the same as Healing Surges as in 4e, except with fewer Surges and lesser Surge recovery. By the look of things, should HD/Vitality be tied to level, there already are many fewer HD/Surges/Vitality.


It seems to me that the only thing you're really opposed to is rolling for healing, and quite frankly, that's trivial, seeing how easy it seems to modify those rules to suit your taste. I look forward to rolling for natural healing because it sounds like it could add some tension to the story. "Man, Nathaniel looks like he's having a hard time recovering from that spider venom. (He's rolling relatively low on HD/Vitality checks) I'm not too sure how much longer he can keep up this pace. (He's running low on HD/Vitality). It might be time set up camp so we can treat him properly." (Cue mini-skill-challenge-of-sorts to find medicinal herbs and administer first aid)


However, I like the idea of diminishing returns. But I'd present a different method. 4e did the right thing with Healing Surges: you could go on multiple encounters every adventuring day, but you will reach a point where your body is so exhausted you won't be able to recover and continue adventuring without proper rest (you run out of Healing Surges). 

DDN should take this to its next logical step: for every consecutive day of adventuring, you lose one Vitality until you rest for a prolonged period of time (A whole day perhaps?). It didn't make sense to me that a character without surges and 10% of their HP left could rest for 6 short hours and be ready to go as if nothing had happened just a few hours ago. Logically, your body would still be somewhat tired after that rest, so you can't accomplish as much.

Say a 3rd-level character had used up all its Vitality (all 3 points, just to be clear) and rests before continuing his quest through a dense jungle infested with dangerous animals. Either he finds a good camping spot to spend 24 whole hours resting to regain all 3 Vitality or rests for only 6 hours and gets 2 Vitality back. He rests for another 6 hours, he only gets one Vitality to spend. That character could last a day or two without proper rest, but a 10th-level guy would be able to last much longer or face bigger threats.
Sure, it's some bookkeeping, but given the right scenario, survival is great drama. Much like multiple encounters will exhaust you over the course of a day, multiple days of adventuring will exhaust you over the course of a quest.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />- In 4e during an extended rest you recover all your healing surges AND all your hit points. From the article it sounds like, at the moment, in DDN when you take an extended rest you recover all your Hit Dice but don't necessarily recover any hit points for free, you probably have to spend the Hit Dice you recovered to restore your lost hit points. Assuming that's correct it means if you are both wounded and have used most or all of your hit dice it will take at least two extended rests to fully recover without magic (one rest restores the Hit Dice, you spend them and get back to full health hopfully, then another extended rest to get back to full Hit Dice again).



If you recall, I suggested that the replenishment rate of healing surges, or "vitality" be reduced instead of resetting at full after each extended rest to bring the game more inline with D&DN's adventure based design goals.


- A healing surge is worth 25% of max health, whereas on average a single Hit Die's value decreases as you gain levels. For instance, healing one hit die is worth about half the hit points of a first level character but only worth about 1/20 of the hit points of a 10th level character (assuming your hit points go up by one die per level). Thus whereas it takes 4 healing surges for both a 1st level character and a 10th level character to fully heal from zero health, it takes about 2 hit Dice for the 1st level character and about 20 Hit Dice for the 10th level character to fully heal. That means that without knowing how many Hit Dice you have in reserves at various experience levels it's impossible to compare how easy or hard it is to naturally heal in DDN versus 4e.



Setting the healing value at 25% means diminishing returns, which lends a feeling of attrition that ciritcs found lacking in 4th edition.


- The article mentioned that healing spells in DDN don't spend Hit Dice, whereas most healing spells in 4e do spend healing surges. Likewise for healing potions.



Yes...but this creates two different sub-systems for healing.

I fail to see how this is desireable.


- The article doesn't mention anything one way or another about whether there will be spells and items which require spending Hit Dice as a requirement similar to 4e power and items which cost healing surges. Personally I'm hoping DDN has some spells/powers/items that cost hit dice, but who knows?



I would supposrt this. Iwould like to see whatever healing resource they use expanded to do more than just healing, like fuel magic items or rituals.

In my 4E games, I've abolished action points and let players spend healing surges to take extra actions instead. Works fine for us.


So even if you did a house rule where you assumed all Hit Die rolls were average rounded up or down the system still would be a bit different from the 4e healing surge system. That could be good or bad depending on the details and on your opinion of 4e healing surges. (Personally I like the 4e healing system since I like having parties fully healed after an extended rest, but that's just me, and I be ok with the DDN system if parties are usually fully healed after one extended rest and just about always fully healed after two.)



It IS different from the 4E healing surge system.

My position is that the healing ssurge system works better, is easier and more elegant, and can be retooled to meet D&DN's design goals with simple re-jiggering of numbers and a little bit of re-skinning.

Now which way is easier?

Spending 1 point of vitality and healing 20 hp.

Or spending 4 hit dice, rollign them and totalling them up?


Frankly, I find the difference in effort minimal. It doesn't take 5 minutes to figure out that (5+2+7+3)+25=42.

Assuming they accomplish the same ends, yes.  However, they don't.



Then explain to me exactly HOW the healing surge system fails to accomplish the goals mechanically.

Now which way is easier?

Spending 1 point of vitality and healing 20 hp.

Or spending 4 hit dice, rollign them and totalling them up?


Frankly, I find the difference in effort minimal. It doesn't take 5 minutes to figure out that (5+2+7+3)+25=42.


Plus, a static number (maybe even a maximum value) will likely be one of the very first and most common houserules.  It's easy to implement, and it returns the consistency that 4e healing surges provided.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Assuming they accomplish the same ends, yes.  However, they don't.



Then explain to me exactly HOW the healing surge system fails to accomplish the goals mechanically.



The goal is modularity that allows simulating the feel of different editions.  Healing surges imposed a limit on magical healing, and provided a non-magical way to heal in combat.  Therefore healing surges, without modifications, could not fulfill the stated goal.  HDs, by contrast, can't spent in combat (as the default, there may be an option that gets built in later), and impose no limit on magical healing.  However, you can assume static results on HDs to provide the same consistency that 4e had, and you can increase or reduce HDs easily enough (these may even be options present in the books).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

...It IS different from the 4E healing surge system.

My position is that the healing ssurge system works better, is easier and more elegant, and can be retooled to meet D&DN's design goals with simple re-jiggering of numbers and a little bit of re-skinning.




You seem to be taking my post to be an attack on your posts but frankly I didn't even read your posts and therefore have no opinion on them whatsoever.  All I was doing was clarifying mechanical differences between 4e's healing system and the Hit Dice because I've been noticing a lot of people posting how "Hit Dice and Healing Surges are the same thing only with dice rolls", which isn't true.
 

Gizmoduck, what you described is pretty much the same as Healing Surges as in 4e, except with fewer Surges and lesser Surge recovery. By the look of things, should HD/Vitality be tied to level, there already are many fewer HD/Surges/Vitality.



Yes.

Also, with the concepts re-skinned to reflect easily identifiable game world analogs rather than just game jargon.


It seems to me that the only thing you're really opposed to is rolling for healing, and quite frankly, that's trivial, seeing how easy it seems to modify those rules to suit your taste. I look forward to rolling for natural healing because it sounds like it could add some tension to the story. "Man, Nathaniel looks like he's having a hard time recovering from that spider venom. (He's rolling relatively low on HD/Vitality checks) I'm not too sure how much longer he can keep up this pace. (He's running low on HD/Vitality). It might be time set up camp so we can treat him properly." (Cue mini-skill-challenge-of-sorts to find medicinal herbs and administer first aid)



It isn't trivial. It's a whole other step to the resolution process that is added for...no...good...reason.

It's arbitrary bureaucracy and I will argue tooth and nail against it, because it doesn't have any place in my leisure activities.


However, I like the idea of diminishing returns. But I'd present a different method. 4e did the right thing with Healing Surges: you could go on multiple encounters every adventuring day, but you will reach a point where your body is so exhausted you won't be able to recover and continue adventuring without proper rest (you run out of Healing Surges). 

DDN should take this to its next logical step: for every consecutive day of adventuring, you lose one Vitality until you rest for a prolonged period of time (A whole day perhaps?). It didn't make sense to me that a character without surges and 10% of their HP left could rest for 6 short hours and be ready to go as if nothing had happened just a few hours ago. Logically, your body would still be somewhat tired after that rest, so you can't accomplish as much.

Say a 3rd-level character had used up all its Vitality (all 3 points, just to be clear) and rests before continuing his quest through a dense jungle infested with dangerous animals. Either he finds a good camping spot to spend 24 whole hours resting to regain all 3 Vitality or rests for only 6 hours and gets 2 Vitality back. He rests for another 6 hours, he only gets one Vitality to spend. That character could last a day or two without proper rest, but a 10th-level guy would be able to last much longer or face bigger threats.
Sure, it's some bookkeeping, but given the right scenario, survival is great drama. Much like multiple encounters will exhaust you over the course of a day, multiple days of adventuring will exhaust you over the course of a quest.



So what you propose is that the characters maximum Vitality points decrease with each adventuring day?


I can get behind that.


One other solution is to change extended rests from 6 hours of sleep to a week's downtime, thereby making this resource per adventure, rather than per day.


I would support this, because needing a week or so in a relaxing setting to replenish all of your reserves makes more sense than to do it while sleeping on a stone floor in your armor.


I would advocate for making vancian casting "per adventure" as well.


You seem to be taking my post to be an attack on your posts but frankly I didn't even read your posts and therefore have no opinion on them whatsoever.  All I was doing was clarifying mechanical differences between 4e's healing system and the Hit Dice because I've been noticing a lot of people posting how "Hit Dice and Healing Surges are the same thing only with dice rolls", which isn't true.
 



Generally, reading posts BEFORE you comment on them is considered to be good manners and proper forum etiquette.

The goal is modularity that allows simulating the feel of different editions.  Healing surges imposed a limit on magical healing, and provided a non-magical way to heal in combat.  Therefore healing surges, without modifications, could not fulfill the stated goal.  HDs, by contrast, can't spent in combat (as the default, there may be an option that gets built in later), and impose no limit on magical healing.  However, you can assume static results on HDs to provide the same consistency that 4e had, and you can increase or reduce HDs easily enough (these may even be options present in the books).



Why is it necessary for magical healing to be unlimited?

The goal is modularity that allows simulating the feel of different editions.  Healing surges imposed a limit on magical healing, and provided a non-magical way to heal in combat.  Therefore healing surges, without modifications, could not fulfill the stated goal.  HDs, by contrast, can't spent in combat (as the default, there may be an option that gets built in later), and impose no limit on magical healing.  However, you can assume static results on HDs to provide the same consistency that 4e had, and you can increase or reduce HDs easily enough (these may even be options present in the books).



Why is it necessary for magical healing to be unlimited?


To simulate the feel of past editions where the only kind of healing was magical healing.  People who enjoy that style of game will have to houserule out the HDs to kill mundane healing, but it will allow them to do so with little work (or it will even state how to achieve it as an option).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


The goal is modularity that allows simulating the feel of different editions.  Healing surges imposed a limit on magical healing, and provided a non-magical way to heal in combat.  Therefore healing surges, without modifications, could not fulfill the stated goal.  HDs, by contrast, can't spent in combat (as the default, there may be an option that gets built in later), and impose no limit on magical healing.  However, you can assume static results on HDs to provide the same consistency that 4e had, and you can increase or reduce HDs easily enough (these may even be options present in the books).



Why is it necessary for magical healing to be unlimited?


It isn't. Magic is still limited to the amount of spells you can use per encounter/day. Always has been the case.
You seem to be taking my post to be an attack on your posts but frankly I didn't even read your posts and therefore have no opinion on them whatsoever.  All I was doing was clarifying mechanical differences between 4e's healing system and the Hit Dice because I've been noticing a lot of people posting how "Hit Dice and Healing Surges are the same thing only with dice rolls", which isn't true.
 



Generally, reading posts BEFORE you comment on them is considered to be good manners and proper forum etiquette.



Right back at you. I never mentioned you in my post, never said I was referring to your post, and never discussed any of your suggestions. So why would you assume I was commenting on your personal post one way or another?

Either way I'm moving on, when I get insulted for no particular reason it's obviously time to go to a more productive thread. 

The goal is modularity that allows simulating the feel of different editions.  Healing surges imposed a limit on magical healing, and provided a non-magical way to heal in combat.  Therefore healing surges, without modifications, could not fulfill the stated goal.  HDs, by contrast, can't spent in combat (as the default, there may be an option that gets built in later), and impose no limit on magical healing.  However, you can assume static results on HDs to provide the same consistency that 4e had, and you can increase or reduce HDs easily enough (these may even be options present in the books).



Why is it necessary for magical healing to be unlimited?


It isn't. Magic is still limited to the amount of spells you can use per encounter/day. Always has been the case.


That's not entirely the case.  4e spent surges to recover when drinking potions.  In 2e and 3e you could recover unlimited HPs in a day if you had access to enough potions and spells.  In 4e, surges made that impossible without houseruling.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

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