Rules questions for the forums

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I have a few rules questions that seem appropriate here. 

I made the following threads in the D&D section:

A thread for my character

A thread for powers I liked

A collaborative thread for powers most liked 

A character building guide that focused on shenanigans revolving a mechanic I didn't like



All these threads were locked because of comments made by a subset of people posting in the threads. 

Are the rules setup to punish the poster of a thread if the people in a thread misbehave?
How long does thread reviewing take to reopen a locked thread?
What are the conditions that a thread will be reopened?

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Yeah...wrong forum.  This is a forum about D&D rules, not forum rules.  You're looking for Community Business.

As a piece of personal advice, however, I'd strongly recommend you respond openly to the criticism you received.  It was not out of place.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Character journals for non-optimized characters belong in Character Development, not in CharOp. 
Lists of powers you like belong in General Discussion, not CharOp, as they have nothing to do with optimization.
Lists of powers the community likes will never reach a consensus, shouldn't be moderated by someone with no understanding of mechanics, and, like above, belong in General Discussion, not CharOp, as they have nothing to do with optimization.
A character building guide focused on shenanigans that neither work the way you think they work nor result in anything better than mediocre if they did doesn't really belong on CharOp either.

To be clear, a huge portion of the issue is in the phrasing.  

"Please help me make this concept/character/trick functional and/or optimized," is precisely what the CharOp board is for.
"Does this trick work?" is fair game for Rules Q&A or CharOp, depending on what the trick could potentially enable, if it does work.
"I did something really cool this one time and here's a guide to how you can do it too" is not, unless the trick in question is both extremely potent and legal.  

There are 45 Classes in this game with 480 possible hybrid combinations, 52 Races, 9256 Powers, 3234 Feats, 574 Paragon Paths, and 114 Epic Destinies.  Not everything needs a guide.  

In fact, the only thing that generally needs guides is sorting through all of the rubbish in order to get to the good bits.  I realize that this may have been the goal of your self-named and "collective" lists, but those went about doing so in the least helpful manner possible (i.e. with no regard to their action type, use frequency, or class). 

CharOp contains 4 types of guides.

  1. Class Optimization Guides - these are generally the most useful

  2. Build Optimization Guides - only necessary for unique builds that do things very differently than the class (or hybrid classes) typically would.

  3. Specific Character Walkthrough Level By Level - typically paired with and written by the same person as the paired class or build guide, giving a level-by-level breakdown of what you buy/pick/take at each level, and what tactics work best at each level. Requires a ridiculously high amount of system mastery and community respect for these to be accepted.

  4. Other Guides - Race, Trick, Epic Destinies, generally things that can be tacked onto many classes/builds.  It's *very* hard to write these to actually be useful to a great deal of people, given the wide diversity among class desires. These generally point out some neat specific interactions, and point out all of the terrible choices to be avoided.

My character was in character development.

Are those laws formal from WoTC or did you just make them up?

Should the posts that other people make determine if a poster's thread gets locked?
Or should those posts just be removed?

How is locking a thread validated?
Why can't I have a thread about my character?
Why can't I make a thread about the powers I like in charop?
Why can't I make a thread about the powers that a collaborative group likes?

How long does is take to have a thread reviewed?

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Please keep in mind that my responses are not official in any capacity, and that this thread is (also) in the wrong forum. This forum is for game system rule questions, not forum etiquette questions. That said, many of your questions can be answered through application of common sense.

My character was in character development.


Then it was in the correct forum. It was likely locked because you made ludicrous claims regarding his damage output, which was artificially inflated by misunderstanding the rules and by houserules, backed up your claims with faulty math when you got questioned, and then it devolved from there. 

Putting your name in the title of your thread and bragging about your conditional daily nova round as if it's your DPR is at best annoying and at worst, leads to precisely what it lead to. If you solved both of those issues, no one would ask moderators to lock your threads.

Are those laws formal from WoTC or did you just make them up?


Well, they're not laws, they're not formal, or from WoTC, nor did I "just make them up." They're common sense.  The Character Optimization forum is for Character Optimization. Off-topic threads that are fun and harmless are generally left alone.  Misinformative threads that pretend they're on-topic and confuse people new to the game tend to devolve into flamefests, get locked, or get moved to a more appropriate forum. 

Again, putting your name in the title of your thread yet calling it "collaborative" at the same time is, at best, annoying, and at worst, leads to precisely what it lead to.  There's no practical use for a list of good heroic powers (particularly not one that ignores action type and use frequency), and no force on earth is strong enough to generate a consensus on which out of the thousands of heroic tier powers (why restrict it to heroic anyway?) are best. The entire purpose of the thread was to get people to argue, and it worked. Shocking. If you made your own list and posted it in General Discussion (because it has no optimization functionality), no one would ask moderators to lock it.

Should the posts that other people make determine if a poster's thread gets locked?

As a rule, no, but when a poster's thread is, itself, off-topic, arrogant, misleading, and reads like an expertly crafted troll piece, the only possible on-topic response is to criticize the existence (or at least location) of the thread. 

How is locking a thread validated?


Generally, they read through an entire thread before choosing to lock it.  Note, though, that any time anyone pushes the report post button in a given thread, the moderators read the whole thread for context before deciding what to do.  If you spam report anyone who disagrees with you, you're dozens of times more likely to have your threads locked. The correct response is, usually, to ignore people who are being mean.
Why can't I have a thread about my character?

You can.  Putting your name in the thread title is annoying, but thousands of people have made threads about their characters without any problems.  Look at how other people have done so and try to understand the difference in how they did it that made people not get angry about it.
Why can't I make a thread about the powers I like in charop?

Because liking something doesn't make it optimal. And because putting your name in the subject line is annoying.  Not even Plaguescarred or LDB have ever done that, and they're among the most respected members this community has ever had. It instantly sets people on edge and makes them think, "Who is this kid? What does he know?," and the answer, sadly, is not a lot.  That's not an insult, this game is complicated, but guide-writers are held to a higher standard of system mastery than other people, and are given dozens of times more critical feedback, from everyone who disagrees with any of their power rankings. And despite your guide not being usable to accomplish anything at all, it was phrased that way, so it got responses that way.
Why can't I make a thread about the powers that a collaborative group likes?

For the same reasons, and additionally, because there's too many people and too many powers for any consensus to actually occur. 

How long does is take to have a thread reviewed?

Absolutely no idea, but not weeks. Either they forgot, hoped you would forget, or decided not to re-open your threads because they're not productive and not, not even with the exception of this thread, in the correct forum.

bajatmerc, Nirafelos was as honest and helpful as can be and i believe your best recourse at this point is to contact Customer Service to give you more infos about your locked thread review since discussion about moderation on the forums is against the Code of Conduct.




Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter


Are threads really locked for making mistakes in math or keywords?
What mistakes are allowed? 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

If you're asking those sort of questions, I'd suggest rereading Nirafelos's posts.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It would be ludicrous for anyone to have a rule against making mistakes.  They are, by definition, unintentional.

The problem arises when the mistakes are repeated or perpetuated despite numerous people trying to point them out.  I recognize the irony in trying to tell you this in a helpful manner, but you don't appear to take criticism well, and it is your response to criticism, and people's response to your response that causes your threads to spiral out of control and get locked.

What could you do differently?


  1. Stop putting your name in the title of your threads. It's annoying.

  2. Don't post things that have nothing to do with optimization in Character Optimization. Use General Discussion for general discussion, Rules Q&A for asking questions, or Character Development for developing your character. 

  3. Don't brag about your character, unless you've found a gamebreaking infinite (or very very high) damage loop that no one else has noticed before.  And then do it on Character Optimization (rather than Development, which is more about background), in the form of a "does this work the way I think it does?" thread, rather than stating that it does work. If it does work, then add it to the DPR kings thread.

  4. If you want to make a list of your personal favorite anythings, do it on a piece of paper, or in an excel spreadsheet, locally on your own computer. If all 124332 people registered on this forum made threads about their favorite things, all of the useful, informative, funny, or otherwise interesting threads would be impossible to find in all of the clutter. It's just not necessary. Note: Don't take this to mean you can't, just take it to mean that if you continue to, you shouldn't expect the community response to get any more encouraging.

  5. Stop reporting every post of every person that disagrees with you or posts something you deem to be off-topic in your threads.  While some of the inflamatory language used did get the rudest posters posting privileges suspended for a few days, the biggest effect was that bringing your threads to moderator's attention got them locked. 

  6. Take a break from posting "guides" of any sort and learn the system.  Ask questions, read guides, make funny jokes, play D&D. 

Hello,

This is not on topic for this forum, so I'll be moving it along to Community Business.

Monica

Monica

Wizards of the Coast Online Community Coordinator

A friendly dragon.

First - I am not an official anything.

I haven't read the threads in question (apparently that's a good thing ) but I have read the questions, have been around here for a bit and have participated in several discussions about forum rules and moderation questions with some of the people that make those decisions.  That preamble out of the way, I think I can help.

It appears, bajatmerc, that your threads (except one), were placed in the improper forum.  That will result in a couple of things: people tend to get irritated about threads posted in the wrong place* and these threads tend to be moved.  It also appears that for some reason or other your threads inspired some ... spirited discussion that included Code of Conduct violations.  When this happens, people report the posts that contain these violations, ORCs see the reports and evaluate them and then take action or not.  If enough reports come in about a thread, it tells the ORCs that nothing constructive is happening - or that whatever constructive converation that may have been taking place has been derailed - and that the thread would be best served by being locked.  This is done, allegedly, to give them time to review the thread, evaluate its potential and then make a decision about reopening it.  From my experience, this rarely happens.  It does, but typically a locked thread stays that way.  A thread locked for this reason doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the OP - after all, it may not be their fault that the flamestorm came to pass.  However, it can.  If the OP has posts modded or deleted, that's squarely on them.  You can find out if you had content deleted or edited by checking your email.  You're supposed to get an email detailing what action was taken against you and why.  This won't happen if your post was modified for continuity reasons, though, as that usually means you didn't do anything wrong but your post no longer makes sense since the context explaining it has been removed.  Anyway, check your email to see if you had any content moderated.  If not, you're in the clear.

I suppose I should also tell you that if you continue to post topics in forums that are considered off-topic for that specific forum, you could potentially see some trouble from Section 6 of the CoC - Disruption.  Cuz constantly posting threads that aren't appropriate for a specific forum is exactly that.  I also suggest you review the CoC to get a better understanding of the forum rules and also check out some of the stickied threads in this forum.  Good luck and if you have any more questions I'll do my best to answer them.
_______________

*Especially when the same person posts multiple threads that don't belong.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Which threads should have gone where?
Is putting your name in the title of the thread for your lists a reason to lock a thread?

Honestly I put my name in the title to show that the threads were opinions as some people think that stuff in the OP is not opinion based.

I also meant to encourage anyone in disagreement with my lists to just go make their own. 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Which threads should have gone where?


I have answered this amply before.  The Character Optimization boards are for Character Optimization.  The rest of the forums follow relatively similar, logical categorization.  Opinion-based threads should stay well-clear of CharOp.

A list of random things you happen to like doesn't particularly belong anywhere, but there are no rules in place to prevent you from posting whatever you decide you want to post, wherever you decide you want to post it.  But things excessively off-topic, like a denouncement of the taoist undertones in season two of my little pony, may well be locked, if they aren't just ignored. 

If you're not sure where to put something, as a general rule, avoid CharOp. It's an unfriendly hornet's nest full of people who all think they're smarter than you.  Some of them are. Collectively, over time, they have "solved" 4e, so with the exception of discussing extremely obscure mechanical interactions, or new content, there's nothing to be done aside from maintaining the existing guides, waiting for new content, and geting unhelpful threads (like your lists) locked or moved out of CharOp. 

Is putting your name in the title of the thread for your lists a reason to lock a thread?

Honestly I put my name in the title to show that the threads were opinions as some people think that stuff in the OP is not opinion based.

I also meant to encourage anyone in disagreement with my lists to just go make their own. 



By itself, I'm sure there's no rule against it.  It is, however, absolutely not accomplishing the goals you've stated and has instead lead to the wide-held impression that you're both clueless and arrogant. Note, if you will, that this thread does not call itself, "Baja's rules questions for the forums," and has received zero troll posts or moderation. For various reasons, "Baja's thread of XXXX" is looked at very differently than an otherwise-identical "XXXX" thread, and not in positive ways. 

Where should each of my threads have gone?
How is a list of optimal powers not suppose to be in char op?

It looks like there are guides in char op for op powers, feats, and more.
I am just concerned with the rules.  

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Where should each of my threads have gone?
How is a list of optimal powers not suppose to be in char op?

It looks like there are guides in char op for op powers, feats, and more.
I am just concerned with the rules.  



Again, I have answered your concerns muliple times.

Your lists had nothing whatsoever to do with optimization. Even lists of the best possible heroic tier powers, which, to be clear, your lists were not and which would never be agreed upon by the community as a whole, have no applicable use in optimizing an actual character, that needs to pick powers for its own class and take action type and use frequency into consideration.  The only practical way to create guides for such things is class and build guides, which have already been done. Furthermore, your posts on the archer guide in particular demonstrate a pointed lack of full system mastery. 

You are absolutely welcome to play dnd, and you are absolutely encouraged to ask questions when they arise, in Rules Q&A when they pertain to game rules and in CharOp when they pertain to power/feat/item/Pp/race/ED choice, but until you have mastered the basics at a minimum, you are absolutely not welcome to post guides, unless you are willing to listen to and adapt to feedback from people who know what they're talking about.

No, you didn't answer my questions. 
For example look at this question:

Where should each of my threads have gone?

Also look at the guide list in the Char Op. There are more than just class and build guides.
Check out the polearm momentum guide for an example. 
I know you want to try to answer my questions, but I think your perception of the char op is too narrow.
Your declarations are mostly opinions so far as well.
I have been asking for rules.  

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

Ok, lets look at it this way. 3 people disagree with you on this thread alone. All of CharOp disagrees that your threads are in the right place. So just move on, and put them OUTSIDE of CharOp. See, now everyones happy.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Nirafelos has so far been spot on in terms of how we saw your threads and how we see our own place in and use of the forums. There are no hard-coded 'rules' written in stone, which you are looking for, they arise through the consensus of like-thinking minds, and have resulted in, basicly, what Nirafelos said. Please listen to what he has said.

If you're not sure where to put something, as a general rule, avoid CharOp. It's an unfriendly hornet's nest full of people who all think they're smarter than you.  Some of them are.



@Nirafelos: This comment made my day. It's so very true.

A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
+1 to Zelink and RuinsFate

And Cudos to you Nirafelos for having the patience to write so much about so little. =)
Nirafelos: you deserve a medal for this bravery.
No, you didn't answer my questions. 
For example look at this question:

Where should each of my threads have gone?

I have answered this question multiple times, starting in my first post in this thread, 5 days ago. With one exception, your threads would have been fine in General Discussion.  After re-reading it, Cuts should have been in Char-Op, phrased as a "help me with this / is this actually legal?," as the majority of your posts in that thread had to do with mechanical interactions rather than fluff.

Also look at the guide list in the Char Op. There are more than just class and build guides.
Check out the polearm momentum guide for an example. 
I know you want to try to answer my questions, but I think your perception of the char op is too narrow.
Your declarations are mostly opinions so far as well.
I have been asking for rules.  



I am trying to be as helpful and polite as possible, but I'm sure by now you've noted the frustration in some of my posts. You're asking for rules that don't exist.

Here are the forum rules, in their entirety. 

Note that excessively posting in the wrong place is against the rules, but that there are no rules governing what goes where.  Which is why I've tried my very best to explain the common-sense of what belongs in what place. 

It's true that it's entirely subjective what has CharOp value and what does not.  In my first post in this thread, I mentioned the "other" category, which is precisely what the Polearm Momentum guide is.  That sort of guide is extremely hard to write well, as it has to take into account every possible build that could try to append the trick to itself, and discuss interesting options that opens up for each class. 

Regarding your lists again, for a moment, please understand that it is not possible to build a character (at least not at heroic) that has the freedom to pick whatever powers it wants, from any class. For this reason alone, a list of the best powers is not relevant to CharOp, despite it seeming like it might be. A list with no context removes the reason why some powers are so potent for some classes, but would be silly to ever poach (like Overwhelming Strike for Avengers), and evaluating daily powers alongside at-wills with no separation leads to nonsense. 

Your lists were fine.  They weren't optimal, and they had no practical function, but if you enjoyed making them, hey, power to you. The problem was that your lists, in the context of CharOp, combined with your name in the title, caused all of the hornets to come out and swarm you repeatedly. I suspect if you posted them in General Discussion they would be largely left alone, but if you really want to write them in a context where no one can rain on your parade, I again recommend crayon.

@everyone else: thank you for your support. 

I have to say, Nirafelos, I salute you for taking the time to explain over and over and over again. You, sir, may be a more patient man than I. ;)


Note that excessively posting in the wrong place is against the rules, but that there are no rules governing what goes where.  Which is why I've tried my very best to explain the common-sense of what belongs in what place. 

It's true that it's entirely subjective what has CharOp value and what does not.  In my first post in this thread, I mentioned the "other" category, which is precisely what the Polearm Momentum guide is.  That sort of guide is extremely hard to write well, as it has to take into account every possible build that could try to append the trick to itself, and discuss interesting options that opens up for each class. 





You have answered my questions concisely now. 

I appreciate your effort.
These days it seems common for people to assume the worst from others. 
I apologize for doubting your sincerity.

I avoided putting Cuts in the Char Op because I wanted roleplaying help.
I had been making a mechanical mistake thinking that all his attacks were performed with his weapon.
The point of the thread was to show off my rp character a little and get paragon path help for roleplaying.
Before the thread was locked I did get some help on the paragon path. 



Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

You're welcome.  I'm glad I was able to answer your questions.  

@Ragnar: d'aww, but it was funny! admit it, you giggled before you moderated.