05/21/2012 MM: "Changing Planes"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Doubling Season, the plane!
Devour X?! Genius! <3
markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/2177320393... seems relevant to this discussion. 
Does Selesnya Roof Gardens stack with Doubling Season?

Imagine having in play Selesnya Roof Garden, Doubling Season, Feed the Pack and a saproling (Warning: this is going to go beyond Magical Christmasland).

Cast: Rite of Replication with kicker on the Saproling. You get 20 saproling tokens. You now have 21 tokens.

Cast: Thromok. Sacrifice all 21 tokens. It gets 1764 counters.

End of turn: sacrific Thromok to Feed the Pack. You get 7056 wolves.

"NO! Don't concede!"

Next turn, cast another Thromok. Sacrifice 7056 wolves. It gets... 199 148 544 counters.
Does Selesnya Roof Gardens stack with Doubling Season?

Imagine having in play Selesnya Roof Garden, Doubling Season, Feed the Pack and a saproling (Warning: this is going to go beyond Magical Christmasland).

Cast: Rite of Replication with kicker on the Saproling. You get 20 saproling tokens. You now have 21 tokens.

Cast: Thromok. Sacrifice all 21 tokens. It gets 1764 counters.

End of turn: sacrific Thromok to Feed the Pack. You get 7056 wolves.

"NO! Don't concede!"

Next turn, cast another Thromok. Sacrifice 7056 wolves. It gets... 199 148 544 counters.



It does stack.
...Soul's Fire? ;)

Disagree - you don't cast another Thromok, you cast Volrath's Shapeshifter. And then discard...well, you choose. Ashling the Pilgrim, Mindless Automaton, Spike Feeder, Spincrusher, Workhorse, or even a good old-fashioned Triskelion. 
Since Planes are so cool, I wonder if there would be a way to bring them back to non-planechase magic. Enchant worlds didn't do well, but most of them were underpowered, and they weren't anything more special than enchantments.

A plane on the other hand, could be qualitatively different. My first cut would be to make them do something that equally affected both players, were permanents but not in control of either player, destroyed all other planes when they came into play, had a non-mana casting cost related to the planes theme, and a CITP benefit.

Examples:

New Phyrexia- 0
Plane- New Phyrexia
As an additional cost to play New Phyrexia, sacrifice five creatures.
When New Phyrexia comes into play, until end of turn, you may pay two life, if you do, add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
All creatures have infect. All spells have proliferate.

Innistrad- 0
Plane- Innistrad
As an additional cost to play Innistrad, remove a creature you control with five power or greater from the game.
When Innistrad comes into play, turn all permanents you control face down. Each face down permanent is a 2/2 Wolf creature which has "at the beginning of each player's upkeep, if two or more spells were cast this turn, turn ~this~ faceup.
Each Vampire, Wolf, Zombie, and Spirit creature has "Tap: Destroy target Human"
Each Human has "Tap: destroy target Vampire, Zombie, Wolf, or Spirit".

Zendikar- 0
Plane- Zendikar
As an additional cost to play Zendikar, discard five land.
When Zendikar comes into play, return all land you control from your graveyard to play.
Each land has "When ~this~ comes into play, deal two damage to each creature"

A plane card could be a cool equivalent to a tagline to preview the first day, and effectively sum up a new world, or changes to an old one. You could even give them out at pre-releases in addition to the other rare to help express the flavor.

(Should any WoTc person read this far, amd happen to like these ideas, I waive any Intellectual property right I would have to any ideas or execution of these ideas represented by these cards).
Wow.  Double tokens and counters is played out.
Since Planes are so cool, I wonder if there would be a way to bring them back to non-planechase magic. Enchant worlds didn't do well, but most of them were underpowered, and they weren't anything more special than enchantments.

A plane on the other hand, could be qualitatively different. My first cut would be to make them do something that equally affected both players, were permanents but not in control of either player, destroyed all other planes when they came into play, had a non-mana casting cost related to the planes theme, and a CITP benefit.

Examples:

New Phyrexia- 0
Plane- New Phyrexia
As an additional cost to play New Phyrexia, sacrifice five creatures.
When New Phyrexia comes into play, until end of turn, you may pay two life, if you do, add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
All creatures have infect. All spells have proliferate.

Innistrad- 0
Plane- Innistrad
As an additional cost to play Innistrad, remove a creature you control with five power or greater from the game.
When Innistrad comes into play, turn all permanents you control face down. Each face down permanent is a 2/2 Wolf creature which has "at the beginning of each player's upkeep, if two or more spells were cast this turn, turn ~this~ faceup.
Each Vampire, Wolf, Zombie, and Spirit creature has "Tap: Destroy target Human"
Each Human has "Tap: destroy target Vampire, Zombie, Wolf, or Spirit".

Zendikar- 0
Plane- Zendikar
As an additional cost to play Zendikar, discard five land.
When Zendikar comes into play, return all land you control from your graveyard to play.
Each land has "When ~this~ comes into play, deal two damage to each creature"

A plane card could be a cool equivalent to a tagline to preview the first day, and effectively sum up a new world, or changes to an old one. You could even give them out at pre-releases in addition to the other rare to help express the flavor.

(Should any WoTc person read this far, amd happen to like these ideas, I waive any Intellectual property right I would have to any ideas or execution of these ideas represented by these cards).

I think this does muchbetter for te casual players. The rotation sets are just to competitive (and full of prima donnas) to change the STRUCTURE of play. 

I do think they seem to be going the wrong way with this "mod" for the game.  The original rules don't FEEL like Plane Chasing. The rules for Eternity Map make a LOT more sense by adding "motion" rather than shoehorning  an old "Enchant World" style of play into a normal game.  

The whole article feels like a giant "miss" of how people like to use the set.  this is getting to be more common for me to notice. They seem to be missing how the regular guy players would take many of these game mechanics lately. Maro mentions "land matters" but that was also kind of a "miss" that seems to have started a lot of them in the last few years. It's like they are stuck in trying to "make" these alternate formats like able to weekly tournament players...

They are really missing the chance to shift these types of products into a "tabletop" genre for people that USED to play a lot of Magic:tG. I don't think they are really looking at how Planechase, Archenemy, and Commander all fit in a overall play date.  These sets need to be looking to get the older players that are now playing Talisman, Descent, Arckahm Horror, or Munchkin. The people that are "worn out" on the constant upgrade and tournament cycle.
Thromok's ability intrigues me.  It's the first case where we had a keyword ability that defined a variable.  Previous cards (Fumiko the Lowblood, Kodama of the Center Tree, and Volcano Hellion) instead had a static ability that granted the creature a constant keyword ability.  This wouldn't have worked for Thromok, since those static abilities only work from the battlefield and by then it would be too late for devour to do anything.  I'm curious about the rules support to get Thromok's ability to work, and whether that will then be used for new cards instead of the static ability.
Since Planes are so cool, I wonder if there would be a way to bring them back to non-planechase magic. Enchant worlds didn't do well, but most of them were underpowered, and they weren't anything more special than enchantments.

A plane on the other hand, could be qualitatively different. My first cut would be to make them do something that equally affected both players, were permanents but not in control of either player, destroyed all other planes when they came into play, had a non-mana casting cost related to the planes theme, and a CITP benefit.


I think this does muchbetter for te casual players. The rotation sets are just to competitive (and full of prima donnas) to change the STRUCTURE of play. 

I do think they seem to be going the wrong way with this "mod" for the game.  The original rules don't FEEL like Plane Chasing. The rules for Eternity Map make a LOT more sense by adding "motion" rather than shoehorning  an old "Enchant World" style of play into a normal game.  

The whole article feels like a giant "miss" of how people like to use the set.  this is getting to be more common for me to notice. They seem to be missing how the regular guy players would take many of these game mechanics lately. Maro mentions "land matters" but that was also kind of a "miss" that seems to have started a lot of them in the last few years. It's like they are stuck in trying to "make" these alternate formats like able to weekly tournament players...

They are really missing the chance to shift these types of products into a "tabletop" genre for people that USED to play a lot of Magic:tG. I don't think they are really looking at how Planechase, Archenemy, and Commander all fit in a overall play date.  These sets need to be looking to get the older players that are now playing Talisman, Descent, Arckahm Horror, or Munchkin. The people that are "worn out" on the constant upgrade and tournament cycle.



I can see why Planechase would work better for some casual players. I just think it would be neat to find a way to make planes show up for non-Planechase games too (i.e. to supplement, rather than to replace planechase). I'm sure some flavorful explanation could be devised for the difference between the two (maybe being forcibly wrenched from one plane to the next in a dual gives planeswalkers "motion sickness" which changes the effects invovled, whereas in planechase the planeswalkers were expecting it and took their dramamine).

I agree a tabletop product would be nice. I've shifted 95% of my magic play from magic to Dominion for the simple reason that Dominion is cheaper. Maybe a paper version of a Cube with modifications to the cube based on number of players could fill the same niche? Or something like a Limited Infinity/Type 4 set?
Thromok's ability intrigues me.  It's the first case where we had a keyword ability that defined a variable.  Previous cards (Fumiko the Lowblood, Kodama of the Center Tree, and Volcano Hellion) instead had a static ability that granted the creature a constant keyword ability.  This wouldn't have worked for Thromok, since those static abilities only work from the battlefield and by then it would be too late for devour to do anything.  I'm curious about the rules support to get Thromok's ability to work, and whether that will then be used for new cards instead of the static ability.


Petrified Wood-Kin is formatted the same way as Thromok, although there's no "where X is..." phrase except in the reminder text.
In order for Petrified Wood-Kin to work, there needs to be special rules support for what "Bloodthirst X" means, done via rule 702.52b.  While that's an interesting case, having that in the rules (and reminder text) instead of the card text makes it quite different from Thromok.
Dear Mr. Rosewater,
     I don't see how it gets x-squared. It only has devour x. I understand when it is influenced by doubling season(still it would never even just get 1 counter would it). The card is confusing, but went back to the devour mechanic and realized there is a "times" that was missing on Thromok. It makes more since but took a while to figure out the multiplication. Guess thats why it would be considered the expert level. Can't wait for June 1! Love planechase!!
Dear Mr. Rosewater,
     I don't see how it gets x-squared. It only has devour x. I understand when it is influenced by doubling season(still it would never even just get 1 counter would it). The card is confusing, but went back to the devour mechanic and realized there is a "times" that was missing on Thromok. It makes more since but took a while to figure out the multiplication. Guess thats why it would be considered the expert level. Can't wait for June 1! Love planechase!!



Its a little wordy but it says:
"This creature gets X +1/+1 counters for each of those creatures"

This means that if you sac 4 creatures it gets 4 +1/+1 counters 4 times.

PS: EDH deck based around him seems awesome fun  
I put together a quick 60 card deck for this and with a bit of help from Magical Christmas Land keeping  on SRG for the 'first' 6 turns of the game and a fortuitous Chaos roll on turn 5... By turn 6,  I got Thromok to over 661 billion P/T with the help of one of my favourite Devour creatures - Mycoloth.  :D

Does Selesnya Roof Gardens stack with Doubling Season?

Imagine having in play Selesnya Roof Garden, Doubling Season, Feed the Pack and a saproling (Warning: this is going to go beyond Magical Christmasland).

Cast: Rite of Replication with kicker on the Saproling. You get 20 saproling tokens. You now have 21 tokens.

Cast: Thromok. Sacrifice all 21 tokens. It gets 1764 counters.

End of turn: sacrific Thromok to Feed the Pack. You get 7056 wolves.

"NO! Don't concede!"

Next turn, cast another Thromok. Sacrifice 7056 wolves. It gets... 199 148 544 counters.



~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~ (Click a deck's name to see list) [] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard) [] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad [] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer) [] Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern) [] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)
"Alexis Janson led the design for next year's Sinker set (the codename for the first 2013 set)."

This confused me as I'm asssuming the Return to Ravnica block has the code names "hook", "line" and "sinker". I assumed that, as usual, "hook" (Return to Ravnica) would come out around october, then it would be "line" in February and "Sinker" in May. So wouldn't 'line" be the first set of 2013?
"Alexis Janson led the design for next year's Sinker set (the codename for the first 2013 set)."

This confused me as I'm asssuming the Return to Ravnica block has the code names "hook", "line" and "sinker". I assumed that, as usual, "hook" (Return to Ravnica) would come out around october, then it would be "line" in February and "Sinker" in May. So wouldn't 'line" be the first set of 2013?



Interesting. If this is not a mistake, what is this giving away? RtR will likely not have a large-small-small as that gave them trouble with the original Ravnica.
Thromok's ability intrigues me.  It's the first case where we had a keyword ability that defined a variable.  Previous cards (Fumiko the Lowblood, Kodama of the Center Tree, and Volcano Hellion) instead had a static ability that granted the creature a constant keyword ability.  This wouldn't have worked for Thromok, since those static abilities only work from the battlefield and by then it would be too late for devour to do anything.  I'm curious about the rules support to get Thromok's ability to work, and whether that will then be used for new cards instead of the static ability.


Petrified Wood-Kin is formatted the same way as Thromok, although there's no "where X is..." phrase except in the reminder text.

I think that the best parallel would be Arcbound Wanderer from Fifth Dawn. There we had the variable value of one ability being set by the output of another ability. They did add rules support indicating that Sunburst could actually do that, but it technically wasn't necessary: if they had worded the card "Sunburst, Modular 0", it would have been functionally identical. Linking up the abilities just made it look cleaner. This contrasted with Bloodthirst X which is actually vacuous without the rules support--or X being defined by the card itself, which is what they did in this case. So I don't think any additional rules support is needed for this to work. It's certainly a great advance in templating technology.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

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