What I miss about (A)D&D

I started playing D&D back in 1979.  Around that time it began to be a bit of a phenomenon, and it was in the press alot (both good and bad).

Someone talked me into playing one night at Ohio State University, and I was hooked. 

Everyone I talked into trying it loved it.  It wasn't your typical group of antisocial folks either.  It was full spectrum and a mix of both guys and girls from all social circles.

What made that version of AD&D so much fun, and so successful was that it was relatively easy to play, it was flexible, and it moved along smoothly and quickly.

Almost every gaming group I ever joined that played AD&D had adopted two very popular optional rules, 1) spellpoints, and 2) THACO.  Other than those two modifications, nearly every DM I ran across played straight AD&D.

Later versions lost the "magic" for me and those I played with.  Those later versions felt more constrained, slower moving, and more and more like a boardgame.  We kept playing AD&D (with those two modifications) for about a decade and then drifted off to other interests.

I think that WoC should do one of two things:

1) Try to capture that fast paced, simple functionality, and fun of AD&D in D&D Next or
2) Re-publish AD&D with new artwork, and add in those two almost universally used optional rules (spellpoints and THACO).  Call it "AD&D Classic".

I suppose they could do both.   There is money to be made with option #2 I believe.  You have all the material, and you could use updated artwork.   You have to admit, there was something about AD&D that made it so fantastically popular the first time. 

Recently, my kids and their friends tried D&D 4e.  They thought it was fun but moved too slow.  I bought a set of AD&D books off of ebay (expensive), and low and behold, they love it!

I wish the team the best of luck.

I'd like to see that old spirit back in the game, whichever path they take.


Thac0.  Really?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Thac0.  Really?



To hit AC 0 was really just a matter of simple math.  If you need 8 to hit ac 0 and your oponent is ac -8 than you need an 16 to hit.  It is nto much more complex than your oponent is AC 32, your attack is +16, you need to roll a 16 to hit. 

I am not saying I want Thaco back, but it really was not difficult.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Of course it's not difficult.  That's not the complaint.  The complaint is that it doesn't make sense to a lot of people to put on a shield and have the number that represents how good you are at defense to go down.

By the way, if you really want to, you can turn any system into a THAC0 one, or turn THAC0 into non-THAC0.  It really is only math, and only in the definitions. 

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Of course it's not difficult.  That's not the complaint.  The complaint is that it doesn't make sense to a lot of people to put on a shield and have the number that represents how good you are at defense to go down.

By the way, if you really want to, you can turn any system into a THAC0 one, or turn THAC0 into non-THAC0.  It really is only math, and only in the definitions. 


Gentlemen,

The point here isn't "please return THACO". 

I was simply saying that the game, aside from the technical esoterica was FUN!  

I think that an AD&D Classic version might fly, and for a very modest investment by WoC, they could make it happen.

My second point was my hope that they would recapture that sense of fun, and fast moving, easy to play flexibilty in D&DNext.

Gentlemen,

The point here isn't "please return THACO".


Er...



I think that WoC should do one of two things:

1) Try to capture that fast paced, simple functionality, and fun of AD&D in D&D Next or
2) Re-publish AD&D with new artwork, and add in those two almost universally used optional rules (spellpoints and THACO).  Call it "AD&D Classic".


Sure looks like that's what you meant.

That said, 1) is quite likely, and 2) is incredibly unlikely.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
For fast furious fun try
Savage worlds. It is simple, quick, and quite fun. It has a bit more crunch to it than AD&D but nowhere near the complexity of 3e. It is also one of the few games where your character actually feels special and does not need to be afraid of a housecat or the common cold.
Yes, IF they did option #2, they would need THACO or something like it, and spell points.   Without those to modifications, AD&D was slower moving and not as much fun.
Of course it's not difficult.  That's not the complaint.  The complaint is that it doesn't make sense to a lot of people to put on a shield and have the number that represents how good you are at defense to go down.

By the way, if you really want to, you can turn any system into a THAC0 one, or turn THAC0 into non-THAC0.  It really is only math, and only in the definitions. 




Whether or not Thaco returns is really not something I worry about



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
What are these later versions you are refering too by the way? 2nd edition? 3rd edition? 4th edition?
What are these later versions you are refering too by the way? 2nd edition? 3rd edition? 4th edition?


Well, 2e was Ok.  We took some of it but kept the campaigns mostly 1e.

Didn't play 3x.

Tried 4e with my kids.  Seemed slow, ponderous, didn't have the feel of AD&D, was more like a boardgame.  Also, felt like first level characters where beginner super heroes instead of a normal human with just a bit of training in a discipline.

I don't mean to dis anyones favorite edition.  I'm just saying that AD&D was a blast.  I hope D&D *somehow* recaptures that feeling.  If not, I wish they'd make the old stuff avaialable again.
I like boardgames.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Has anyone made a D&D Next bingo card yet? A lot of the posts in a lot of these threads are saying a lot of the same things.

EDIT: found an anti-4E bingo card, someone who's not me should take a stab at updating it for this forum.
blogs.gamerassembly.net/wp-content/uploa...
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes?

In AD&D a single fighter could take on an Orc or a few goblins no problem. In 4e a single fighter has about a 60% chance of beating one goblin in a one on one fight, and no chance against the Orc or 2+ goblins. In AD&D a wizard can wiggle his fingers and make 2-8 trained soldiers fall asleep for ten minutes with no save. Alternatively they can warp someone's mind so they become your best friend and go to suicidal lengths to protect you for a few hours. At level 3 they can be invisible all day until they attack. Pre 4e you had superheroes in every party. Which game seems more superheroic?
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes?

They can beat housecats.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I always wanted to make an awakened house cat ninja! Or an evil Druid who had 8 house cat companions and dropped baleen whales on people's heads.
I think that WoC should do one of two things:

2) Re-publish AD&D with new artwork, and add in those two almost universally used optional rules (spellpoints and THACO).  Call it "AD&D Classic".




Actually aren't they releasing newly printed "collectors" or "aniversary" editions of the original PHB, BMG & MM. I remember seeing something on Facebook about it. But since I still have my originals I didn't care.  
"We are men of action, lies do not become us" ~ D.P.R.
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes?/>



Front-loaded class features maybe?
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes?

They can beat housecats.




D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Thac0.  Really?



To hit AC 0 was really just a matter of simple math.  If you need 8 to hit ac 0 and your oponent is ac -8 than you need an 16 to hit.  It is nto much more complex than your oponent is AC 32, your attack is +16, you need to roll a 16 to hit. 

I am not saying I want Thaco back, but it really was not difficult.







no one finds it difficult. ever. That's miles away from the point.

It's just silly. There's no reason to not just start at zero, and move in one direction from there, never touching the other side. If it's subtractive, make it all negative numbers, but that's just a silly extra step, so if the rest of the system is positive, make the to hit values positive as well.

The main thing is, keep the numbers moving in the same direction, because it's just silly not to.


Anyway, I think number one of OP's post is exactly what they're trying to do, with the core of the game.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes? In AD&D a single fighter could take on an Orc or a few goblins no problem. In 4e a single fighter has about a 60% chance of beating one goblin in a one on one fight, and no chance against the Orc or 2+ goblins. In AD&D a wizard can wiggle his fingers and make 2-8 trained soldiers fall asleep for ten minutes with no save. Alternatively they can warp someone's mind so they become your best friend and go to suicidal lengths to protect you for a few hours. At level 3 they can be invisible all day until they attack. Pre 4e you had superheroes in every party. Which game seems more superheroic?



Nods this stuff and after a paltry few levels the spell caster has personal flight and missile immunity and so on...
The level you get stuff mostly like that in the latest game is half way through your career. There is less superhero in 4e. Just less lame-o too.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

@Rogan
I'm glad you had fun and enjoyed the spell point rule but it is by no means almost universally accepted.  You played in a particular circle where that rule became popular probably by cross pollination.  I never knew any group that used it.  

I happen to like the straight up Vancian magic user. 
Yes, IF they did option #2, they would need THACO or something like it, and spell points.   Without those to modifications, AD&D was slower moving and not as much fun.



I think the majority of ADnD lovers would play with a modern additive to hit system replacing thac0.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes? In AD&D a single fighter could take on an Orc or a few goblins no problem. In 4e a single fighter has about a 60% chance of beating one goblin in a one on one fight, and no chance against the Orc or 2+ goblins.



Actually that's not true. A 4e fighter can take about half an at level encounter solo, if the fighter is even mid level optimized. A single orc is within reach.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes? In AD&D a single fighter could take on an Orc or a few goblins no problem. In 4e a single fighter has about a 60% chance of beating one goblin in a one on one fight, and no chance against the Orc or 2+ goblins.



Actually that's not true. A 4e fighter can take about half an at level encounter solo, if the fighter is even mid level optimized. A single orc is within reach.



I seem to recall a basic Orc is level +4 for a starting character.. and the fighter wouldnt be teased if he hides.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The 4e superhero myth always amuses me. What made you think 4e characters are super heroes? In AD&D a single fighter could take on an Orc or a few goblins no problem. In 4e a single fighter has about a 60% chance of beating one goblin in a one on one fight, and no chance against the Orc or 2+ goblins.



Actually that's not true. A 4e fighter can take about half an at level encounter solo, if the fighter is even mid level optimized. A single orc is within reach.



I seem to recall a basic Orc is level +4 for a starting character.. and the fighter wouldnt be teased if he hides.



I forget that monsters have set levels. too much time spent in the monster builder, i guess. :P

Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
@Rogan
I'm glad you had fun and enjoyed the spell point rule but it is by no means almost universally accepted.  You played in a particular circle where that rule became popular probably by cross pollination.  I never knew any group that used it.  

I happen to like the straight up Vancian magic user. 




Actually, I've seen spell point systems in D&D that work along with Vancian magic.  The way it worked was you have a given number of spell points at a given level.  Each day, as you prepare and memorize spells, your spell points are "pre-spent" on the spells you use during the day.

I for one would love to see a spell point system work just like that.  If we were to have an at-will/Vancian blend, then the spell points could be used to enhance the at-wills during a given casting; using Vancian, you could simply prepare that specific casting in advance.

To speak of THAC0, it was really more of a penalty to an attack roll rather than it being how good you were at defense.  Back in those days, HPs was the "defensive" abstract of deflecting a deadly blow, while your AC was to avoid being damaged all together (as apposed to being hit like it is now.)

But, I agree, I would not want to see THAC0 return.  Positive defenses are more intuitive, and they end up being attack DCs instead of attack penalties.
@Rogan: Take a look at OSRIC. It's basically AD&D with ThAC0 instead of the hit charts. Some of the rules are clarified, some of the stuff Gary just hated in AD&D was left out. It's a free download, and you can buy a big book with lots of art if you lean that way. Completely compatible with the old modules, monsters, etc.
Yes, IF they did option #2, they would need THACO or something like it, and spell points.   Without those to modifications, AD&D was slower moving and not as much fun.



I think the majority of ADnD lovers would play with a modern additive to hit system replacing thac0.



I am an AD&D lover who DMs with a modern additive to hit system replacing the to-hit tables.  The players are all perfectly cool with it.  Though one of the more mathematically challenged players does remain skeptical that the statistical chance to hit remains identical.  It is funny watching him continue to argue even after directly showing how the number needed to roll is the same.
Yes, IF they did option #2, they would need THACO or something like it, and spell points.   Without those to modifications, AD&D was slower moving and not as much fun.



I think the majority of ADnD lovers would play with a modern additive to hit system replacing thac0.



I am an AD&D lover who DMs with a modern additive to hit system replacing the to-hit tables.  The players are all perfectly cool with it.  Though one of the more mathematically challenged players does remain skeptical that the statistical chance to hit remains identical.  It is funny watching him continue to argue even after directly showing how the number needed to roll is the same.



When 2e replaced 1e but didn't come out with an accending AC system as our group had hoped, we simply replaced the Thac0 system. Taped an AC conversion chart and positive to hit modifiers to the DM's screen. I found it to be really fast and easy, and not at all a problem to simply convert monster AC on the fly.

OleOneEye, is your player talking about the math being different for 2e Thac0, or the 1e to hit tables? If he's talking about the 1e to hit tables, he's right, because it used an attack matrix, which made it easier to hit creatures with super ridiculous good AC scores by repeating the 20 results five times on the chart. It became a lot harder to hit things in 2e onward, using either BAB or Thac0.
Of course it's not difficult.  That's not the complaint.  The complaint is that it doesn't make sense to a lot of people to put on a shield and have the number that represents how good you are at defense to go down.



That's because they don't understand where the mechanic comes from (miniture wargaming) in the 1st place. 

And then 2e just compounded the issue by making thac0 the default acronym. 
NOW on top of always wondering why low AC#s were better, you had people reading a goofy abreviation & having to do (more) math when rolling to hit.

People "got" roll the d20.  Apply any modifiers.  Look at the chart (on page x) and tell me what AC you hit. Even if they didn't get the use of descending AC values.
But man, when you condensed those charts to thac0....  Something about that acts like a feeblemind spell on otherwise ok players.  
OleOneEye, is your player talking about the math being different for 2e Thac0, or the 1e to hit tables? If he's talking about the 1e to hit tables, he's right, because it used an attack matrix, which made it easier to hit creatures with super ridiculous good AC scores by repeating the 20 results five times on the chart. It became a lot harder to hit things in 2e onward, using either BAB or Thac0.



Yes, the repeating 20 required such an ugly cludge that we opted not to worry about it.  As they've yet to encounter an enemy with negative AC converted to 21+, that has not been an issue.  Suffice to say, he is a great guy but does not need to work as a teller at a bank.

On the monster side, though, I do cheat and just give +1 to hit per hit die rather than converting the actual chart.  Figure it is so close it doesn't really matter.
Yes, IF they did option #2, they would need THACO or something like it, and spell points.   Without those to modifications, AD&D was slower moving and not as much fun.



I think the majority of ADnD lovers would play with a modern additive to hit system replacing thac0.



I am an AD&D lover who DMs with a modern additive to hit system replacing the to-hit tables.  The players are all perfectly cool with it.  Though one of the more mathematically challenged players does remain skeptical that the statistical chance to hit remains identical.  It is funny watching him continue to argue even after directly showing how the number needed to roll is the same.



Some people refuse to accept improvement. :P
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
The real issue? Experience and expectations.

When you learned how to play AD&D, you had none. Now you look at 4e and compare it to your first games. And you expect D&D Next to be like those games.

The game feels slower because you're older and you're slower. I'll bet you're concerned about getting it "right" more than the way you used to play where you were focused more on "fun".

If the game moves slow, it's the DM's job to keep things moving. Every edition of D&D says so. You don't HAVE to squeeze out every single HP out of a monster. Monsters can surrender/back down. They can run away. They can escape to return another day. Or the DM can warp things up once it's clear the characters have won the combat. "A few more minutes pass as you mop up the rest of the goblins." avoids having to tink the remaining goblins.



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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
...If the game moves slow, it's the DM's job to keep things moving. Every edition of D&D says so. You don't HAVE to squeeze out every single HP out of a monster. Monsters can surrender/back down. They can run away. They can escape to return another day. Or the DM can warp things up once it's clear the characters have won the combat. "A few more minutes pass as you mop up the rest of the goblins." avoids having to tink the remaining goblins.



True, but just because a DM can "fix" things doesn't mean they're not "broken". In 4e's case overly long combats is a common complaint regardless of DM and player experience and mastery with the 4e game system. Sure, you can tweak things as a DM to mitigate the problem, but that doesn't mean it's not a weakness in the game system itself.

As far as 4e goes overall it's my favorite edition despite combats taking a bit too long for my taste. Fortunately DDNext is apparently directly addressing that issue.
just a note concerning THAC0: with negative AC your vital spot is beneath ground level ...

edit: call it  "fortify"


THAC0 was definitely clumsy, but at the same time it's soooo iconic. The best compromise we've found is reatining the THAC0 acronym and concept as a base to hit number, but flipping it to an additive system. In reality it's nothing more than BAB as a target instead of bonus, but it somehow FEELS more like D&D.




Have you looked at Adventurer Conquerer King? (ACK).  Even if you didn't use the game directly it seems to have a lot of things you might like.  Right now if I had to pick a retroclone I'd pick ACK.   The skill system may be more than you want though.  That is an area I do like.

They precompute the number on a d20 you need to hit an unarmored person.  So if that number is an 8 let's say you have to roll an 8 to hit a AC 0 (no armor) person.   All armor classes go up from 0 which makes a lot of sense to me.  If you meet an AC 10 monster then you know you need to roll an 18 to hit that monster.   Very fast and easy.

The only downside I see is if the modifiers push your basic to hit number negative at some point.  Kinda weird to say my number to hit AC 0 is a -2.   I didnt' see this in ACK though so maybe it doesn't happen.

I would have really liked to see a full on revision of the AD&D game. Afer all, between 1/2e that iteration of the game lasted for over 20 years. It would have been neat to see an overall streamlining and cleaning up of the game.

After DDN, assuming it's successful, I would not be opposed to WotC launching a revised AD&D game to run alongside DDN.

Probably not going to happen since the game has merged so much, but still a nice thought.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
I miss my 34" waist.
Ya know, making a conversion chart occupy a tiny bit of space isn't all that hard:


THAC0  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10   9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1   0  -1  -2  -3  -4  -5  -6  -7  -8  -9  -10
Bonus    0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8   9    10  11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21  22 23  24 25  26 27 28  29  30



People who wanted THAC0 could get a tiny paragraph explaining how it worked and simply use the THAC0/Negative AC Tables. Poof, everybody's happy.
Options are Liberating
I miss being able to fight in full gear, all day, and still have energy to party that night...
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome