Transcript of D&D Next Chat with Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford

Transcript of D&D Next Chat with Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford 

Wednesday May 16, 2012

10:51 Trevor: I've just opened the chat so people should be making their way in now. Once we're about to start, I'll do another couple announcements.
10:55 Trevor: Hah! You're all awesome with your questions, but we haven't started quite yet. You can keep them coming in, just know that we'll be starting this party in about five to ten minutes.
11:00 Trevor: For a few of you asking about a transcript - yes, the contents of this chat will be available on the site after we're done.

11:01 Mearls: Hello world.

11:01 Trevor: There's Mike Mearls, one of the stars of the show!

11:01 Mearls: Jeremy Crawford will be a little late. We just finished up a meeting on the playtest packet.

11:03 Trevor: You want to regale us with any playtest tidbits while we wait for him, Mike?

11:04 Mearls: Hmmm... let's see. I've been DMing mostly, and the rules have changed a lot over the past few days. Probably the funniest thing was guest starring as a librarian in a playtest game at DDXP. Also, I got to test the DR rules when the players had to cut open a dead wererat's stomach to find a gem it had swallowed. That was not how I expected to test those rules.
11:05 Mearls: Trevor, you can go ahead with questions. Jeremy will be here shortly, and I can defer to him as needed.

11:06 Trevor: Alright, lets get the intro blurb in there and get started then.

11:06 Trevor: Welcome everyone to the Q&A for the next iteration of D&D and the upcoming playtest! I'm Trevor Kidd, Community Manager for Wizards and D&D and I'll be facilitating the chat. Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford from the D&D design and development teams will be fielding Your questions.

11:06 Jeremy Crawford: Hello, everyone!

11:07 Trevor: And there we have Jeremy!

11:07 Trevor: This is a moderated chat, which means every comment or question you make is seen on our end of things, but you won't see it until we publish it to the room for Mike and/or Jeremy to talk about. With all that said, let me get out of the way and let Mike and Jeremy introduce themselves and say a few words. After that, we'll start fielding your questions!


11:07 Trevor: Alright - I'll leave the floor to you two. When you're done with introductions let me know and I'll get on to the questions.

11:07 Mearls: I'm Mike Mearls and I'm the senior manager for the D&D team. My job is to oversee the development of the game and make sure all the teams work together.

11:08 Jeremy Crawford: And I'm Jeremy Crawford, head of editing and development for D&D products.

11:08 Mearls: I also pitch in as needed to get work done. For instance, my other open window has the rules text for rituals, though those won't be in the initial playtest.

11:08 Jeremy Crawford: I do enjoy trying to get Mike to work as a writer still.

11:08 Mearls: I think we're ready for questions.

11:09 Trevor: To cover a lot of very basic questions out there, can you remind us when the playtest starts and give us a little information about what people can expect from this first playtest packet?

11:09 Mearls: The playtests starts on the 24th. That's next Thursday. Which is much sooner than it seems. Much, much sooner.

11:09 Jeremy Crawford: Here's what to expect in the packet . . .
11:09 Jeremy Crawford: Five pregenerated characters
11:10 Jeremy Crawford: The Caves of Chaos adventure
11:10 Jeremy Crawford: A bestiary to accompany the adventure
11:10 Jeremy Crawford: And rules of play, both for players and DMs

11:10 Mearls: We're doing two clerics to test the range of the domain/deity system.

11:11 Jeremy Crawford: One of the clerics is more of an armor-and-mace fellow, and the other is more of a mystic
11:11 Jeremy Crawford: The five characters will feature the background and theme system that we've alluded to in the past few months.

11:12 Mearls: Next question!

11:12 Trevor: Another very popular set of questions from many in the room: Who can play in the playtest, and how are we going to distribute the playtest information to people?

11:13 Jeremy Crawford: We hope everyone will play!

11:13 Mearls: The playtest is open to anyone who signs up, and the information will be available digitally. As part of signing up, there will be an online playtest agreement similar to the one we used for Dungeon Command last year.
11:13 Mearls: Next question!

11:13 Comment From monstermanual What level of complexity will we see in the first wave playtest PCs, and what options will we have to adjust them to our taste?

11:14 Jeremy Crawford: There will be a range of complexity, from a relatively straightforward fighter to a class wizard.
11:14 Jeremy Crawford: By "class" I mean "classic".

11:14 Mearls: Character customization will come in a bit later. To start with, we're focusing on the core system.

11:15 Jeremy Crawford: We will roll out adjustment options in the next few months. For now, we'd like people to play with the pregens.

11:15 Comment From OngoingDamage How different will the 5/24 playtest materials be from what we saw at PAX East? Did any of the PAX East playtest feedback get incorporated into the current version?

11:16 Jeremy Crawford: There will be many differences, both in the core mechanics and in the characters.

11:16 Mearls: Yes, we incorporated that feedback. The playtest will look fairly different in terms of characters. Mostly, things will look a little simpler for DMs. The classes, themes, and backgrounds are a little better organized, and we've done some work in figuring out what parts of a character sit where.

11:17 Mearls: Probably the biggest change is in the mechanic for advantage and disadvantage. We've also have done a lot to the cleric, fleshing out domains and making those a bigger part of the class that changes a lot of stuff.

11:17 Jeremy Crawford: An example change: Spellcasters all have at-will spell options now.

11:17 Comment From shamsael How much can we expect the rules to change from the start of public playtesting to final release? To put it differently, how much of the system at this point is set in stone and how much is free to be tweaked or rewritten at this point?

11:18 Mearls: Nothing is set in stone. Since we're starting simple, we can make huge changes without massively reworking tons of text. We're taking it slowly precisely because we expect to release rules, incorporate feedback, than use that to drive the next wave of material.
11:18 Mearls: Next question!

11:19 Jeremy Crawford: Addressing this question: The only things we won't budge on are the things set in D&D's stone, such as using the d20 or that the game contains wizards.

11:18 Comment From John Sussenberger Will we be able to run play tests in public locations, such as a game store or convention?

11:19 Mearls: I believe we're working on that option now. Right now, for the playtest each person taking part should sign up. We're working on something right now that will alow cons and stores to run stuff.
11:20 Mearls: Next!

11:20 Comment From Gerardo Hi, thanks for making this live chat. I've been following the character class design post and I'm intrigued to know how you measure balance. How do you know a class is balanced or not? Some number or value attached to powers that you add up and say OK it's good, or is it more a gut feeling based on the designers experience and playtest feedback?

11:20 Jeremy Crawford: It's a mix of math, playtest feedback, and a dash of intuition.

11:21 Mearls: It's a combination of the two. D&D covers so much ground, that we can balance stuff based on combat without actually balancing anything for a specific campaign. We're looking at each area of the game - combat, exploration, interaction - and making sure that characters can contribute in each area. It's maybe 50/50 art and science.
11:21 Mearls: Feedback will be the biggest, important factor for us.
11:22 Mearls: next question

11:22 Comment From The Mormegil Can you tell us more about movement and positioning in D&D Next? What will it look like?What about attacks of opportunity? What are your thoughts about interrupts and other out-of-turn actions?

11:23 Jeremy Crawford: That's a Russian nesting doll of questions!
11:23 Jeremy Crawford: Mike and I are conferring . . .
11:24 Jeremy Crawford: Our desks are next to each other, so we're chatting at the same time.
11:25 Jeremy Crawford: The simple stuff first: Attacks of opportunity are not in this playtest, but the system does have rules that point to the peril of making ranged attacks in melee, for instance.

11:25 Mearls: Ha! Jeremy will love this question. I'm really not a fan of giving people extra turns in addition to their own turn. I think it really slows the game down. For movement and positioning, the goal is to focus more on terrain and interesting things to move to and around, rather than flanking and such. There are off-turn actions in the game, but the philosophy now is to have them eat into your turn or have something you have to set up. For instance, instead of everyone automatically getting opportunity attacks, a character might need to take a feat or choose an ability that basically says, "If you make a melee attack on your turn, you get one opportunity attack for the next round." A rogue might have this - you can move away from an enemy that moves next to you, but you lose your move on your next turn.

11:26 Comment From Arbanax Can I ask how Monsters will be handled in terms of stat blocks and information, the off table help and fluff and the at table crunch?

11:27 Jeremy Crawford: In this playtest, you'll see shortened stat blocks in the adventure, and then full stat blocks in the bestiary.
11:27 Jeremy Crawford: The bestiary includes both mechanical information and lore.
11:27 Jeremy Crawford: What you'll see is just a starting point. We expect the stat block format and the lore information to evolve quite a bit in response to playtesting.
11:28 Jeremy Crawford: Next question!

11:28 Comment From Jools I'd love to know what your thoughts are on conditions in 5e. Something spoilery would be nice!

11:29 Jeremy Crawford: We've been discussing conditions quite a bit lately. They're certainly in the game. I'll be revising them this afternoon, in fact. 11:30 Jeremy Crawford: We're fans of conditions that make sense both as game mechanics and as something in the world. Prone, for example, is a useful game concept, and it matches what's going in the story. You're knocked on your butt!

11:31 Mearls: We're trying to keep the list of conditions slim and make it apply to things that are obvious changes in the world. For instance, right now invisible and ethereal are on the list of conditions. We also added intoxicated. Basically, what are things that when they happen to you have a clear effect on how you interact with the world? here's another thing - with stuff like paralyzed, we're dealing more in describing what happens rather than trying to make everything mechanical. So paralyzed says that you can' t move your limbs. Spellcasting specifies that you need to move your arms to cast a spell. Thus, a paralyzed creature can't cast spells. The idea is that we give the DM clear mechanics, but also make it clear what's happening in the world so the DM can make any judgment calls as needed.

11:32 Jeremy Crawford: My favorite new condition is intoxicated. ;)

11:31 Mearls: Next!


11:32 Comment From Mike How are we going to provide feedback on the open playtest?

11:33 Mearls: We'll have a series of surveys we're sending out. I also think that we might have a dedicated forum on the site for discussion, but I think Trevor might now more about that. The idea is to make it as easy as possible for us to capture feedback, while also reaching as wide an audience as possible.
11:33 Mearls: BTW, the surveys are being put together by the folks at WotC who do that for a living.
11:33 Mearls: Next!

11:34 Comment From The Mormegil I know your top one priority is making the game feel like D&D, but those of us who do not notice any distinctive feel in D&D and would like to help too may need a direction for their efforts. What are you looking for in this playtest? What do you expect from it?

11:35 Jeremy Crawford: We also want to know whether the game is enjoyable for you, whether the rules make sense, and whether is evokes a swords-and-sorcery feel.

11:36 Mearls: There are two ways to look at it. if you're a long-time D&D fan, the playtest should feel like you're coming home again. We want the rules to be easy to use, rulings simple to make, and the game to move at a good pace. All while feeling like D&D at its heart. if you don't have a particular attachment to D&D or its specific feel, then the game should be fun to play, interesting to run, and an overall good fantasy RPG. Our biggest goal is making sure that the core rules are easy to understand, easy to use, and fully functional.
11:36 Mearls: Next!

11:36 Comment From Tara What were some of the major changes from the last few days?

11:36 Jeremy Crawford: Haha!

11:36 Mearls: Hmmm... is there anything we haven't changed in the past few days?

11:37 Jeremy Crawford: One of my favorite changes from this week is adding more flavorful effects to some of the cantrips.

11:37 Mearls: I did a review of our weapon table, and I think the spear was the one weapon I didn't comment on. Probably the biggest things are rogue schemes and cleric domains.

11:38 Jeremy Crawford: Yeah, the rogue has really come into focus this week.

11:38 Mearls: Yes, cantrips that you use to attack are basically utility cantrips that have a way you can use them against creatures. The ignite cantrip lets you start fires, whether its lighting a torch or a goblin's butt.

11:38 Jeremy Crawford: The poor goblin and his butt.

11:38 Mearls: Next!

11:38 Comment From Kamikaze Midget Can you tell us about anything you guys have discovered in focusing the game on the entire adventure, rather than on the individual encounter?

11:40 Mearls: The biggest thing is making it OK for one character to own a particularly encounter. If the wizard casts sleep and KOs a group of six kobolds, that's OK. In the next encounter, the rogue might sneak up on the kobold shaman and gank him, or the fighter blocks a doorway and takes down a wave of attackers. Same goes for characters with good social abilities, and so on.
11:40 Mearls: It also means for a much faster game - characters contribute in each encounter, but we can let someone shine without feeling that everyone must have at least 4 or 5 turns to do their thing.

11:41 Jeremy Crawford: There is a tremendous amount of world texture that we can include when there isn't pressure to make everything count in every single combat encounter. We can include character options that speak to social situations, exploration, traveling on the high seas, hopping into other planes of existence, and so on, without segregating those options into little buckets.

11:42 Mearls: It also means that "unbalanced" options are more viable. For instance, in one adventure the characters fought a gang of hobgoblins. One of the hobgobs was a beast master who used a whip and a prod to drive a pair of giant scorpions forward. The rogue sniped the beast master, so the scorpions turned around and had their revenge on the tribe.
11:43 Mearls: It ended the fight pretty quickly, but it made for a fun adventure. The characters ended up luring the scorpions into a room with a window, locking them in there while the rogue climbed out.
11:43 Mearls: Next!

11:43 Comment From Brian How do you plan on handling the discrepancy between the 4e-style spells for wizards/sorcerors (Powers) vs the older-style spells (A lot of very unique and varied spells)? Would both styles of play get along nicely in a game?

11:43 Jeremy Crawford: Yes, they get along together very nicely.

11:44 Mearls: We have some potentially interesting ideas for the warlock vs. sorcerer vs. the wizard. I can't say much, but when you have two or three classes using arcane magic, you have room to maneuver. In 3e the warlock was sort of 4e-like, as was the binder. I think we can make room for both in a way that makes those classes unique and fun.
11:45 Mearls: The great thing about classes is that you can have a spell slot system, a spell point system, and a power system all in the same game.
11:45 Mearls: Next!

11:45 Comment From Somnambulant gamer Everyone's incredibly excited about this initial offering, do we know what kind of timeframe we're looking at for materials to generate new characters and a chance to see more of the core classes that will be released?

11:45 Jeremy Crawford: Even in the playtest spells, you will see elements from classic spells and elements from powers. 11:45 Mearls: Let me check our schedule. It's on a white board on the other side of my desk... AFK
11:46 Jeremy Crawford: We plan to roll out character-customization options this summer.

11:46 Mearls: OK, if things go smoothly you'll have that stuff before the end of the summer. Keep in mind that feedback is a part of this, and it's all contingent on how much we need to change based on round 1.

11:47 Jeremy Crawford: And we'll roll out other classes bit by bit. Since our focus is on collecting feedback, we are not going to release too much at once. We want to make sure each part of the game gets the love it deserves.

11:46 Mearls: Next!

11:47 Comment From Andrew Can you comment on adventure pacing versus the wonder of magic? In 3e, PCs were often required to rest after the cleric/wizard were out of spells, regardless of the state of the rest of the party. In 4e, everyone can keep going until out of surges, but there was less "magical pizazz" across the classes -- a sword being a magic missile being a druid's claw.

11:49 Jeremy Crawford: We have been striving to connect pacing to concrete things in the game world: magical resources, such as spells; hit points; and various options that might rely on a character expending some of his or her vitality.

11:49 Mearls: That's a great question. We want magical to feel magical yet rooted in the world. The cantrip thing ties into this. Cantrips aren't specifically made to blast people, but a cantrip you use to create a small amount of acid as part of an alchemy experiment can also be a useful weapon. Spells should feel magical and maybe even mysterious in some way.
11:49 Mearls: For instance, going back to cantrips, we specifically didn't want to just make a spell that was the same as a crossbow but it did fire damage. That sells magic short, IMO.
11:49 Mearls: Next!

11:49 Comment From Somnambulant gamer You mentioned all casters have at-will spell "options" now. Are these class features, or tied into the themes or backgrounds?

11:50 Jeremy Crawford: Both!
11:50 Jeremy Crawford: The cleric and the wizard get them, and some backgrounds and themes offer them.

11:51 Mearls: Yes, both. At-will spells come with classes. Rogues and fighters can opt into that if they want. I'd also like to at some point offer an option for a non-at-will magic game, but we received overwhelming feedback in favor of at-will magic. That feedback was largely edition independent.

11:52 Jeremy Crawford: Yeah, when playing a spellcaster, many people like to feel like a spellcaster all the time and not have to resort to a crossbow--or a dart!

11:51 Mearls: Next!

11:52 Comment From Preston What races will be in the play test? Do you see race or culture as being a driving force behind a characters mechanics?

11:53 Jeremy Crawford: The classic four will be in the playtest: dwarf, elf, halfling, and human.

11:53 Mearls: Halfling, human, dwarf, and elf. We're actually doing a mix of race and culture with our approach. A high elf and a wood elf share some innately elf things, but also get some things distinct to their specific culture.

11:53 Jeremy Crawford: Right out of the gate, you'll see the high elf, for instance.

11:53 Mearls: Next!

11:53 Comment From HustontheTodd What I love about 4e is the ease with which I can throw an encounter together. What can I expect from dndnext to make adventure building fun?

11:54 Jeremy Crawford: While Mike answers that, I'll say something else about race. A thing I love about our current approach is that you don't just pick your race, such as dwarf. You also pick what kind of dwarf you are.

11:55 Mearls: 4e provides the standard we're using for DM tools and adventure building. My goal is to do a mix of basic D&D - which was fairly step-by-step - combined with 4e's approach, though focusing more on the adventure as a whole rather than encounters. We also know that DM experience plays a big role in how people approach adventure and campaign design, so we want to offer a lot of options including "roll lots of dice and randomly determine everything" to "do whatever you want."
11:55 Mearls: Next!

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.

11:58 Mearls: Next!

11:58 Comment From Jozh Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths? In or out?

11:59 Mearls: We're not sure yet. One of our next big tasks is to look at high level play and how things might evolve beyond class. If we do paths or prestige classes, we want to make sure that they fit into the overall Next system in an organic way, We don't want to just bolt them in.

12:00 Jeremy Crawford: Our initial high-level playtests were a hoot and included elements similar to paragon paths / prestige classes, but we're still exploring options.

11:59 Mearls: OK, one more question then I have a lunch meeting.

12:00 Comment From EdofDoom Are there any obvious tanking mechanics in the new edition? Something that guarentees a wizard in the back doesn't get ganged up on by people running past the fighter?

12:01 Jeremy Crawford: There are definitely ways for one character to protect another. We have a whole theme dedicated to the concept, in fact, but you won't see a tank per se in the first batch of five characters.

12:02 Mearls: There are two things. First, creatures grant cover. So, cowering behind people is a good idea. That said, the basic option for that rests in a theme right now. My feeling on tanks is that it's best if a player wants to do that, rather than saying an entire swatch of characters are assigned that when a player might want to be a fighter to be good in combat. I'd rather it be clear that a player has taken a theme to do that and is getting into it because that's what the player enjoys doing in D&D.

12:02 Mearls: Thanks for the questions, everyone. This was a lot of fun. I've asked Trevor to capture the questions we couldn't get to so we can cover them before the playtest launches.

12:02 Jeremy Crawford: Yes, thank you, everyone!

12:03 Trevor: Alright, that wraps things up for the Q&A! Thanks everyone for all the great questions. We weren't able to get to them all, but as Mike mentioned, we will be trying to answer as many as we can in future articles and conversations.


--------------------------------------------------------
NB - I have moved some responses around so that they appear with the question the relate to, some of Mr Crawford's responses appeared after the next question was asked.
You might want to sblock that, just cuz of the size.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

11:40 Mearls: The biggest thing is making it OK for one character to own a particularly encounter. If the wizard casts sleep and KOs a group of six kobolds, that's OK. In the next encounter, the rogue might sneak up on the kobold shaman and gank him, or the fighter blocks a doorway and takes down a wave of attackers. Same goes for characters with good social abilities, and so on. 
11:40 Mearls: It also means for a much faster game - characters contribute in each encounter, but we can let someone shine without feeling that everyone must have at least 4 or 5 turns to do their thing.



*does a little happy dance* 

Thank great C'thulhu, my bloody offerings have borne fruit. 
The more I see what they have to say about 5E, the more it looks like 3.xE. The less it looks like 4E.

Its getting to the point where it looks like they are going to release a warmed over version of 3.xE with some features tacked on to try to keep the 4E crowd. If that's what it is, then I'm not going to move from 4E...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The more I see what they have to say about 5E, the more it looks like 3.xE. The less it looks like 4E.

Its getting to the point where it looks like they are going to release a warmed over version of 3.xE with some features tacked on to try to keep the 4E crowd. If that's what it is, then I'm not going to move from 4E...


As someone who played both 3e and 4e, it doesn't look like what you're describing.  Can you be specific?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

The more I see what they have to say about 5E, the more it looks like 3.xE. The less it looks like 4E.

Its getting to the point where it looks like they are going to release a warmed over version of 3.xE with some features tacked on to try to keep the 4E crowd. If that's what it is, then I'm not going to move from 4E...


As someone who played both 3e and 4e, it doesn't look like what you're describing.  Can you be specific?



Look at Kaldric's post. as well as parts of the transcript where they say the fighter just 'hits it' and 'hits it again'.

Where they talk about the rogue having to hide or do a trick in order to match damage with the fighter (as in they have to waste a turn to get the extra damage).

Where it says wizards can stop an encounter with a spell, but a fighter needs special terrain that might or might not be available (like a doorway).

How they are going to balance them across the three pillars, but not within each pillar. So your rogue will be good at exploration and not as good as the fighter or wizard at combat.

It looks to me like they are re-introducing the overpowered wizard and the 5 minute workday...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.



11:40 Mearls: The biggest thing is making it OK for one character to own a particularly encounter. If the wizard casts sleep and KOs a group of six kobolds, that's OK. In the next encounter, the rogue might sneak up on the kobold shaman and gank him, or the fighter blocks a doorway and takes down a wave of attackers. Same goes for characters with good social abilities, and so on.
11:40 Mearls: It also means for a much faster game - characters contribute in each encounter, but we can let someone shine without feeling that everyone must have at least 4 or 5 turns to do their thing.
Hopefully, that'll only be true for the optionless, s****y, clearly incomplete Rogues and Fighters we'll be getting during playtest.




EDIT: The hell's wrong with this thing



The more I see what they have to say about 5E, the more it looks like 3.xE. The less it looks like 4E.

Its getting to the point where it looks like they are going to release a warmed over version of 3.xE with some features tacked on to try to keep the 4E crowd. If that's what it is, then I'm not going to move from 4E...


As someone who played both 3e and 4e, it doesn't look like what you're describing.  Can you be specific?



Look at Kaldric's post. as well as parts of the transcript where they say the fighter just 'hits it' and 'hits it again'.

Apparently, you missed this part.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.


Edit: Edited to clean up quote tags.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

Yeah, they definitely said that they are going to beef up the fighter and sneak up the rogue later on.

Celebrate our differences.

And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.
It's playtesting.  If your patience is going to be an issue, you may want to just wait until 5E releases.  

Celebrate our differences.

And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

Welp, guess it's gonna be a Casterfest for the first half year or so of playtest. Which probably isn't too bad; we're getting a chance to shoot down caster dominance before it can become a problem.
11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats.



11:40 Mearls: The biggest thing is making it OK for one character to own a particularly encounter. If the wizard casts sleep and KOs a group of six kobolds, that's OK. In the next encounter, the rogue might sneak up on the kobold shaman and gank him, or the fighter blocks a doorway and takes down a wave of attackers. Same goes for characters with good social abilities, and so on. 
11:40 Mearls: It also means for a much faster game - characters contribute in each encounter, but we can let someone shine without feeling that everyone must have at least 4 or 5 turns to do their thing.



*does a little happy dance* 

Thank great C'thulhu, my bloody offerings have borne fruit.





... ... ...

I'm very happy for you. Tongue Out
And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.
Thanks to 5Efan for the chat's  transcript!

Happy to hear there will be some familiar and some new stuff in the Open Playtest, things that were changed or modified etc...

I was hoping the Fighter and Rogue had Maneuvers straight from the get go. I guess they will only come later....
And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.


Even that won't be complete.  It'll still likely be in the playtest stage.  Will it be fun to work with to see how broken we can make stuff?  Heck yes.  I'm looking forward to trying to break the system like a toy from the 99 cent store.  However, even when that material comes out for playtest, I expect it to be rather sparse.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.


Even that won't be complete.  It'll still likely be in the playtest stage.  Will it be fun to work with to see how broken we can make stuff?  Heck yes.  I'm looking forward to trying to break the system like a toy from the 99 cent store.  However, even when that material comes out for playtest, I expect it to be rather sparse.



Yes, but I loathe arcane casters (long term prejudices, the Hexblade from HoFK being the only one I've enjoyed longer than one session) so being told my options for play are "I hit it" and "I hit it again" in combat, not happy making.
And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.


Even that won't be complete.  It'll still likely be in the playtest stage.  Will it be fun to work with to see how broken we can make stuff?  Heck yes.  I'm looking forward to trying to break the system like a toy from the 99 cent store.  However, even when that material comes out for playtest, I expect it to be rather sparse.



Yes, but I loathe arcane casters (long term prejudices, the Hexblade from HoFK being the only one I've enjoyed longer than one session) so being told my options for play are "I hit it" and "I hit it again" in combat, not happy making.


Well, that isn't all they said.  They did say the fighter gets "unique mechanics."  I have no idea what that is, but it is interiguing.  They also were saying that they really want feedback on what to do with the fighter.  That means they really want to hear from... well... You.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

I agree and I intend to force myself to go through this in order that people like myself are represented. I just worry that more people like me will just throw their hands up and say "Why should I take the trouble, it's clear they just like the caster players". (I am aware that is hyperbole, but people get hyperbolic when their emotions are involved. I know I'm a rationalizing creature, not a rational one).
I agree the simple Fighter should be a viable option for people that want one. I am just not sure if spending a Feat is the right way to have the Fighter get access to Maneuver options for people that also want them. 

I would prefer a choice in Features Options ex;

  Fighter Options: Choose between Fighter's  Power Surge or Fighter's Maneuvers.
Initial responses are very telling and when asked about fighters Mr Crawfords response left me unimpressed.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers? 

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea! 

There are 2 possibilities - either you were seriously giving your opinion or you were making a monumentally stupid joke.  I suspect the truth is a little of both and whichever of the two (or whatever the combination of both) my confidence in this design teams ability to create a worthwhile product is certainly not increased by what I'm reading.
EDIT: The hell's wrong with this thing



The quote system is horrible. You have to copy and paste the quote author=xxxxxx part with the brackets into the middle of the quote to break it up. so copy the first quote tag, then find where you want to make a comment then

/quote

Insert comment here

quote author=xxxxx

surround both tags with brackets...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The more I see what they have to say about 5E, the more it looks like 3.xE. The less it looks like 4E.

Its getting to the point where it looks like they are going to release a warmed over version of 3.xE with some features tacked on to try to keep the 4E crowd. If that's what it is, then I'm not going to move from 4E...


As someone who played both 3e and 4e, it doesn't look like what you're describing.  Can you be specific?



Look at Kaldric's post. as well as parts of the transcript where they say the fighter just 'hits it' and 'hits it again'.

Apparently, you missed this part.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.


Edit: Edited to clean up quote tags.



No I saw it, I just don't want 3.xE feats are powers...

I want the fighter to choose whether they want another bonus to hit (or multiple hits) or whether they want a cool power that lets them jump into a group of enemies and have a chance to knock them all down or something... Instead we are going to have to buy powers with feats which means the wizard will still beat the fighter because they don't have to spend their feats on spells...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
High elf in the playtest.  Looks like the eladrin is dead.
And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.


Even that won't be complete.  It'll still likely be in the playtest stage.  Will it be fun to work with to see how broken we can make stuff?  Heck yes.  I'm looking forward to trying to break the system like a toy from the 99 cent store.  However, even when that material comes out for playtest, I expect it to be rather sparse.



I don't know about you, but I was very careful with my $0.99 cent toys or my parents wouldn't buy me any more...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
And I think that that is a poor decision on their part. I know my patience is not limitless and I don't want to have to wait up to 3-5 months to get the options for my fighters and rogues.


You're waiting a lot longer than 3-5 months.

Remember that we are talking about a game that hasn't been finished yet.  Until the game is released, we're all waiting for everything.



I was specifically refering to the  character customization (or manuvers, gah) being available in the summer.


Even that won't be complete.  It'll still likely be in the playtest stage.  Will it be fun to work with to see how broken we can make stuff?  Heck yes.  I'm looking forward to trying to break the system like a toy from the 99 cent store.  However, even when that material comes out for playtest, I expect it to be rather sparse.



Yes, but I loathe arcane casters (long term prejudices, the Hexblade from HoFK being the only one I've enjoyed longer than one session) so being told my options for play are "I hit it" and "I hit it again" in combat, not happy making.



Look, you can spend feats to get cool options like cleave, improved cleave, and great cleave, you just won't be as good as everyone else who can spend their feats on whatever they want...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I dont think FEATS are what you think they are. But we will see in about a week.
I dont think FEATS are what you think they are. But we will see in about a week.



Unless they are renaming stuff...

They said in the chat that fighters can spend feats to get 'maneuvers' which will be like the powers of 4E... Until I see something that tells me a feat is something other than it was in 3.xE or 4E, I'm going to stick with my original thought...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Apparently, you missed this part.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.




No I saw it, I just don't want 3.xE feats are powers...



That's not what they said.  They said 1 feat gives you a suite of powers.  As long as they give an extra feat to compensate for this, then there's no problem.  They also said that's what they have right now, and that the game is nowhere near done, and that they really want feedback on this issue because everything they have now is open for change.  They want your feedback.  They don't want your non-productive griping that this is a "warmed over version of 3e."  If you have legitimate ideas for how they can fill their stated goal, making a fighter that has interesting tactical options but that can still be played as a straight-up basher, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear it.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

Apparently, you missed this part.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.




No I saw it, I just don't want 3.xE feats are powers...



That's not what they said.  They said 1 feat gives you a suite of powers.  As long as they give an extra feat to compensate for this, then there's no problem.  They also said that's what they have right now, and that the game is nowhere near done, and that they really want feedback on this issue because everything they have now is open for change.  They want your feedback.  They don't want your non-productive griping that this is a "warmed over version of 3e."  If you have legitimate ideas for how they can fill their stated goal, making a fighter that has interesting tactical options but that can still be played as a straight-up basher, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear it.



I do have legitimate ideas and I posted them either in this thread or another.

You assume that somehow you will get another feat to compensate, that isn't stated anywhere.

What do they mean by 'an entire suite of powers'. As in 2-3 powers or 10-15 powers? Will they be powers or just tacked on stuff like (if you beat their AC by 5 or more they are knocked prone)?

I'm just saying as it stands now, its not going to be bought by people like me.

I don't care if the wizard and the fighter have different subsystems. I do care that they balance against each other at all times and that both of them get meaningful choices at each level. That's not something we are seeing so far...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Apparently, you missed this part.

11:55 Comment From RupertDnD Are Fighters getting cool stuff too, like powers or maneuvers?

11:56 Jeremy Crawford: The fighter gets to carry my wizard's tea!

11:57 Mearls: Right now, we're keeping the fighter fairly basic but giving you those options in feats. However, the fighter does get a couple unique mechanics to make him different. This is definitely an area where we're looking at feedback, but so far people seemed more concerned with getting at-will magic that in making manuevers something all fighters automatically get.
11:57 Mearls: And to be clear, right now if you spend a feat for maneuvers you're getting a whole suite of options to use, not just one thing.
11:58 Mearls: Also, I don't think the first pregen fighter has maneuvers to start with.

11:58 Jeremy Crawford: We're committed to giving fighter players interesting tactical options, but we also want to make it possible to play the simple basher. Feedback is usually split on wanting both types of fighter.




No I saw it, I just don't want 3.xE feats are powers...



That's not what they said.  They said 1 feat gives you a suite of powers.  As long as they give an extra feat to compensate for this, then there's no problem.  They also said that's what they have right now, and that the game is nowhere near done, and that they really want feedback on this issue because everything they have now is open for change.  They want your feedback.  They don't want your non-productive griping that this is a "warmed over version of 3e."  If you have legitimate ideas for how they can fill their stated goal, making a fighter that has interesting tactical options but that can still be played as a straight-up basher, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear it.



I do have legitimate ideas and I posted them either in this thread or another.

You assume that somehow you will get another feat to compensate, that isn't stated anywhere.

What do they mean by 'an entire suite of powers'. As in 2-3 powers or 10-15 powers? Will they be powers or just tacked on stuff like (if you beat their AC by 5 or more they are knocked prone)?

I'm just saying as it stands now, its not going to be bought by people like me.

I don't care if the wizard and the fighter have different subsystems. I do care that they balance against each other at all times and that both of them get meaningful choices at each level. That's not something we are seeing so far...


As it stands now, it doesn't exist.  Saying that you wouldn't buy it as it is is like saying you wouldn't buy a bucket of half-cooked chicken.  No one is offering you the bucket of half-cooked chicken.  They're asking how you like the spices, the breading, and the oil they're frying it in.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

It's like looking at the bare chassis of a car and saying "It doesn't have bucket seats, it sucks and people like me won't buy it". Since no one's trying to sell it to you, I doubt your stance bothers them.
It's like looking at the bare chassis of a car and saying "It doesn't have bucket seats, it sucks and people like me won't buy it". Since no one's trying to sell it to you, I doubt your stance bothers them.


Lol.  It's funny the things you and I can agree on, isn't it?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

No its more like they have the raw chicken, and they have stated what they want on the chicken, and I'm telling them that if they put certain things on the chicken (curry powder, chili powder), then I'm not going to eat it.

Its like they have the frame of a car and the frame is small, and they are telling me that I can add features to make a large full bed truck out of it. They are also telling me they are going to put a massive engine in it, but that i'll be able to get 60+ MPG out of it. Then they are telling me its going to lighter than a compact car. I'm just looking at what they are saying and looking at the frame and going, no you gotta give up on some of that or your going to have an unworkable car...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
In case you don't think I'm giving ideas and feedback:

For a fighter I would allow at each level for the player to either choose a +1 to attack, a +1 to damage, or to select a special power they can tack onto the attack like:

Jump and swing - As part of your attack you jump 3 squares ending adjacent to your target. Make your attack roll, if you hit, you may make a secondary attack roll agains a different adjacent enemy who is then knocked prone.

I know its not balanced, but they can balance it with the numbers and the powers effects. Maybe give a +2 to attack and damage instead of the power or allow them to attack an extra enemy.

Really if they gave us a meaningful choice at each level I wouldn't care so much, but if the choice is +1 to attack or +1 to damage, I don't consider that a meaningful choice...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
No its more like they have the raw chicken, and they have stated what they want on the chicken, and I'm telling them that if they put certain things on the chicken (curry powder, chili powder), then I'm not going to eat it.

Its like they have the frame of a car and the frame is small, and they are telling me that I can add features to make a large full bed truck out of it. They are also telling me they are going to put a massive engine in it, but that i'll be able to get 60+ MPG out of it. Then they are telling me its going to lighter than a compact car. I'm just looking at what they are saying and looking at the frame and going, no you gotta give up on some of that or your going to have an unworkable car...



You are trying too hard.
No its more like they have the raw chicken, and they have stated what they want on the chicken, and I'm telling them that if they put certain things on the chicken (curry powder, chili powder), then I'm not going to eat it.

Its like they have the frame of a car and the frame is small, and they are telling me that I can add features to make a large full bed truck out of it. They are also telling me they are going to put a massive engine in it, but that i'll be able to get 60+ MPG out of it. Then they are telling me its going to lighter than a compact car. I'm just looking at what they are saying and looking at the frame and going, no you gotta give up on some of that or your going to have an unworkable car...



You are trying too hard.



Care to elaborate?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
You really want me to do so? Seems pretty obvious to me!
In case you don't think I'm giving ideas and feedback:

For a fighter I would allow at each level for the player to either choose a +1 to attack, a +1 to damage, or to select a special power they can tack onto the attack like:

Jump and swing - As part of your attack you jump 3 squares ending adjacent to your target. Make your attack roll, if you hit, you may make a secondary attack roll agains a different adjacent enemy who is then knocked prone.

I know its not balanced, but they can balance it with the numbers and the powers effects. Maybe give a +2 to attack and damage instead of the power or allow them to attack an extra enemy.

Really if they gave us a meaningful choice at each level I wouldn't care so much, but if the choice is +1 to attack or +1 to damage, I don't consider that a meaningful choice...



I am fully expecting to see such meaningful character design choices at each level in the final product sitting right alongside a basic fighter that gets something like just +1 attack/damage per level.

What makes you think that there will not be meaningful character design choices?
In case you don't think I'm giving ideas and feedback:

For a fighter I would allow at each level for the player to either choose a +1 to attack, a +1 to damage, or to select a special power they can tack onto the attack like:

Jump and swing - As part of your attack you jump 3 squares ending adjacent to your target. Make your attack roll, if you hit, you may make a secondary attack roll agains a different adjacent enemy who is then knocked prone.

I know its not balanced, but they can balance it with the numbers and the powers effects. Maybe give a +2 to attack and damage instead of the power or allow them to attack an extra enemy.

Really if they gave us a meaningful choice at each level I wouldn't care so much, but if the choice is +1 to attack or +1 to damage, I don't consider that a meaningful choice...



I am fully expecting to see such meaningful character design choices at each level in the final product sitting right alongside a basic fighter that gets something like just +1 attack/damage per level.

What makes you think that there will not be meaningful character design choices?



In the interview they pretty much stated that in order to get powers a fighter will have to use their feats...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
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