Non-Hybrid / Multiclass Cunning Sneak Rogue

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I know this char op but every rogue with Cunning Sneak seems to be a Warlock / Assassin Hybrid.

I want to know is it possible to optimize it well (not perfect) without doing that. I love the idea / flavor of an Eladrin Cunning Sneak that loves melee combat.

I was thinking along the lines of

At Wills:
Deft Strike
Gloaming Cut
Chameleon 

Encounters:
Dazing Strike
Tumble
Low Cut
Killer's Ambush

Daily:
Spinning Blade Leap
Lurker's Assault
Knockout
Peripheral Concealment

Paragon Path either:
Daggermaster  or Shadow Assassin or Master Inflitrator 
Eladrin is indeed how I'd do it. Take Spiral Dance Assault at 16, take Spiked Chain Training for a Reach Weapon, and Hide after every attack (ok, just once per round...). Plus, it's constant Teleportation, and there are SOOOO many tricks with that.

Another option is MC Warlock, Evermeet Warlock for constant Invisiblity and Ally Taxi.
The only, and I mean only, purpose behind the Warlock/Assassin addition is to get Shadow Walk.

If you are ok with waiting, you can pick up the level 18 feet slot item Phantom Chaussures and get it in a can.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Or just convince a friend to play a Sentinel Druid of the Wastes and get permastealth at level 1.  Better make that Hybrid Sentinel Druid of the Wastes- there's just not enough for a Sentinel to do.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Enshrouding candle and drawn shadows....
No multi class for the challenge of it and becuase Multiclassing purley for power is a bit cheesy...

Sometimes having the story make sense is more important then being the most powerful thing in existence.  
From a CharOp perspective, a multiclass feat is just a feat. Mechanically, they tend to be a bit worse than most feats, but they operate a unique place because they have a high opportunity cost and they open up a lot of interesting builds. But they're just a feat. This is your character, your story. If you want to play a purely martial character or whatever, poof! You're playing one! You've even chosen a pure, non hybrid class, where the mechanics are designed to support the kind of stealthy experience you're looking for. You've chosen mechanics designed to evoke the feel of the class you want. This seems wise. I understand setting some kind of barriers. A Rogue|Warlock or whatever feels differently than a normal Rogue, because different rules apply to them. But a Cunning Sneak Rogue is a Cunning Sneak Rogue is a Cunning Sneak Rogue. You're going to be mobile, stealthy, hitting with small weapons for big damage when you have CA. You're playing the class you want to. Why would you stop yourself from taking a feat that could enhance the play-style you're looking for? Sometimes having a character able to do in combat what the story says she or he can do is important too. Sometimes the things that it says on your character sheet are less important than making your role in the story fit your role in combat.
No multi class for the challenge of it and becuase Multiclassing purley for power is a bit cheesy...

Sometimes having the story make sense is more important then being the most powerful thing in existence.  



This doesn't make any sense considering
1. Multiclassing doesn't need to have any fluff impact
2. Its not cheesy...not even in the slightest
3. You're in the wrong forum? 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
No multi class for the challenge of it and becuase Multiclassing purley for power is a bit cheesy...

Sometimes having the story make sense is more important then being the most powerful thing in existence.  



Try to separate the mechanics from the fluff.

Building a great story/background/depth does not revolve around which feats you pick. It might guide your hand, but if you enhance your character's abilities by picking a feat that opens up some good options for you, it does not detract from the RP side of your PC.
No multi class for the challenge of it and becuase Multiclassing purley for power is a bit cheesy...


You're not multiclassing purely for power, you're multiclassing because other classes can help you do things your primary class can't do as well on its own.  It's that difference in competency that is the whole point behind classes.  Recognizing those differences is not cheesy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Multiclassing Warlock or Druid would give you access to a daily utility zone to give you concealment to trigger Cunning Sneak both with sustain minors. Druid also gives you access to an encounter until end of next turn concealment and +5 to stealth checks in the zone from a utility. Artificer gives access to a daily utility that gives concealment and a +4 bonus to stealth for you and allies with a sustain minor (Shadowy Figurine). Assassin gives access to several options for concealment starting at L2U (Converging Shadows, Cloak of Shades.

I stopped looking at this point. There's a lot of options if you're willing to go outside of just Rogue for tools. Relying on terrain is not a good option.
Apologies if posting in a months-old topic is frowned upon here, figured it'd be better to post this in a related topic rather than just make my own on generally the same subject.

So, I made this permastealth build that, assuming I have these rules down right (fairly new player), provides permastealth the first time you attack someone granting you CA, requires only an at-will standard action to maintain, and leaves your multiclass options open.
The bare minimum for the build to function:

Pixie [HotF]
Rogue, Cunning Sneak class feature [PH1][MP2]
At-will: Deft Strike [PH1] or Gloaming Cut [MP2]
Feat: Ghostwalker Style [Dragon 373, page 17] (with Deft Strike, ignore for Gloaming Cut)
Feat: Improved Cunning Sneak [MP2] (can potentially skip with a high enough int mod and Gloaming Cut)
Feat: Risky Shift and/or Mark of Passage [EPG] (Mark only for Gloaming Cut, and only if your int mod will be 0 by paragon)
Magic armour: Armour of Dark Deeds [AV2]

Being a pixie isn't mandatory for the build, I love them for reasons listed below.

Deft Strike
Feat cost: 3. Ghostwalker Style, Improved Cunning Sneak, and Risky Shift.

Deft Strike with CA from any number of ways you can manage that, passively gain cover from Armour of Dark Deeds, shift 2 as a free action from Ghostwalker Style plus Risky Shift, Improved Cunning Sneak lets me get hidden without superior cover when I move 2 squares, and the base Cunning Sneak lets me move my speed after becoming hidden without breaking stealth no matter where I end my turn, since I still have cover from the Armour of Dark Deeds and no penalty for moving too far means no forced reroll. (although I do have the option to roll again if I want)


Gloaming Cut
Feat cost with 3 int mod: Nothing, you're good to go. (but who runs 16 int on a Rogue, seriously)
Feat cost with 2 int mod: 1. Improved Cunning Sneak, Mark of Passage, or Risky Shift.

Feat cost with 1 int mod: 2. Improved Cunning Sneak, plus Mark of Passage or Risky Shift.
Feat cost with 0 int mod: 3. Improved Cunning Sneak, Mark of Passage, and Risky Shift.

Gloaming Cut with CA from any number of ways you can manage that, passively gain cover from Armour of Dark Deeds, shift 3 or 2 (depending on feats taken and int mod) and Improved(?) Cunning Sneak lets me get hidden without superior cover when I move enough squares, and the base Cunning Sneak lets me move my speed after becoming hidden without breaking stealth no matter where I end my turn, since I still have cover from the Armour of Dark Deeds and no penalty for moving too far means no forced reroll. (although I do have the option to roll again if I want)

Note: It's apparently ambiguous whether Gloaming Cut and effects like it can regain hidden during the attack.
Unlike other powers that simply state something along the lines of "shift 2 after the attack", Gloaming Cut and a few other powers state "you can make a stealth check to become hidden".
Personally I'm of the opinion that's plenty explicit enough to break the rule about "an action that loses you hidden can't gain you hidden", but others may not agree.


Now, since I have a move action open after becoming hidden, most enemies have to guess where I am to attack me.
Moving up to 6 squares in any direction, including diagonals or just holding still, means a 13x13 area I could be in. (6 east/west, 6 north/south, plus 1 from my original row)
Barring locations I can't be in, like walls, that means the enemy has a 1/169 chance to even target the right square. If they don't, they miss outright.

Did I mention I'm a pixie? That means I can shift with no penalty in most difficult terrain, fly over almost anything, (like said walls, if outdoors) occupy an enemy square, and also end my turn at altitude 1, effectively doubling, at minimum, the squares I could potentially occupy after a move 6.
Making that a 1/338 chance to guess my square correctly, again, excepting places it's impossible for me to be.
If I'm flying, landbound creatures can't even just ram their face into me to reveal my location and I ignore tremorsense to boot.

And then, even if by some stroke of luck or good intuition someone guesses my square right, I AM still hidden, so they take a penalty to being able to hit me anyway.
Could also take Gloaming Cut with int mod of 1 and drop Ghostwalker Style, or an int mod of 2 and drop Mark of Passage.
Almost went that route myself, but Gloaming Cut doesn't do dex mod damage; Deft Strike is also much better for getting CA early, since you only get your permastealth going around level 14 with the armour.
Useful alternative if your DM is picky about dragonmarks outside of Eberron settings, though.
The only, and I mean only, purpose behind the Warlock/Assassin addition is to get Shadow Walk.

If you are ok with waiting, you can pick up the level 18 feet slot item Phantom Chaussures and get it in a can.

You also net an MBA.  Which quite useful for the OA's you should be trying to get.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Could also take Gloaming Cut with int mod of 1 and drop Ghostwalker Style, or an int mod of 2 and drop Mark of Passage.
Almost went that route myself, but Gloaming Cut doesn't do dex mod damage; Deft Strike is also much better for getting CA early, since you only get your permastealth going around level 14 with the armour.
Useful alternative if your DM is picky about dragonmarks outside of Eberron settings, though.

Gloaming cut doesn't work the way it's supposed to with the new stealth rules.
i.e. it won't let you re-hide.

Ghostwalker Style however does, since the movment is a seperate (free) action.

Also, you need to move 2 squares (with improved cunning), not 1.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Shouldn't it avoid the same-action-no-restealth rule by virtue of specific beats general? Gloaming Cut's effect says I can stealth check to become hidden, shouldn't matter if that same action already blew my hidden status.
With Mark of Passage you can shift +1 when a power lets you shift, so with the mark you only need an int mod of 1 with Gloaming Cut to manage 2 squares of shifting, or the shift 1 on Deft Strike with Ghostwalker Style, to let Improved Cunning Sneak kick in.

Edit: Oh, I think I see what you mean. Mark of Passage might not even apply to the Ghostwalker Style shift, since it's a free action technically separate from the power, which wouldn't explicitly fall under the "whenever one of your powers lets you shift" wording.

Still, Risky Shift can replace it since it boosts all shifting, not just power based shifting.
Now that I think about it, Risky Shift is the better option anyway, since being hidden effectively forever means "haha, what CA?"

It would also leave you open to take Mark of Sentinel, so you can get a free shift 2 (with risky shift) and restealth any time you make an OA, which in turn lets you stay permastealthed while making off-turn attacks.
It doesn't specifically override the normal restrictions on stealth checks, so no. It would need to say you could regain Hidden as part of the attack, even if the attack caused you to lose Hidden. There is a Rogue e7 with a Cunning Sneak Rider that has an example of the kind of wording that'd be required.

SvG always requires the rule be specifically overridden.
Do you mean "Killer's Ambush"?
It has exactly the same wording as Gloaming Cut, "You shift a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier, and you can make a Stealth check to become hidden."
No, not that. Maybe it was an e3.

Regardless, you can't rehide. You have to meet all the normal pre-reqs of a stealth check, because it doesn't override them. It was FAQed.
This thing? wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...

Power says I can stealth check to become hidden, this is RAW. It doesn't say I can violate things like needing superior cover, but it does say I can become hidden as part of the attack if the other conditions are met.
And then there's Cunning Sneak, which lets me get hidden if I have "any concealment or any cover".
This thing? wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...

Power says I can stealth check to become hidden, this is RAW. It doesn't say I can violate things like needing superior cover, but it does say I can become hidden as part of the attack if the other conditions are met.
And then there's Cunning Sneak, which lets me get hidden if I have "any concealment or any cover".

You realize the FAQs are rules, right? You can be a Munchkin if you like, but FAQs exist to clarify what the correct interpretation is. And in this case the correct interpretation is that SvG requires specificity. If it doesn't explicitly override a rule, then it doesn't. You have to meet all the normal requirements for making a stealth check and you don't.
I get that it's a rule, I don't get how it's related in this case.
The FAQ makes no mention of the Cunning Sneak class feature, only Gloaming Cut by itself.
I get that it's a rule, I don't get how it's related in this case.
The FAQ makes no mention of the Cunning Sneak class feature, only Gloaming Cut by itself.

You must meet the normal requirements for a stealth check. In your case that is normal cover or concealment, but it is also you cannot hide as part of the same action that caused you to be unhidden. That rule is not specifically overridden, so you still need to obey it.
Wouldn't the two work together?
I didn't think Cunning Sneaks get to roll stealth twice any time they're maintaining hidden in cover, I assumed it was supplanting the normal requirements for a stealth check.
I play a longsword-wielding Eladrin Cunning Sneak rogue who uses hand crossbows for ranged engagements. I play the powers as written, meaning powers that explicitly state "...and you can roll a stealth check to become hidden" means you can roll a stealth check to become hidden, assuming you meet all of the requirements of rolling stealth to become Hidden. The statement within the attack powers is enough to override the "can't reroll stealth to become hidden as part of the same action in which you lost hidden" rule by the ruling of my DM, with which I agree. Check with your DM to get their sense of it.

Cunning Sneaks don't get to roll stealth twice without some additional feat or item that allows for it. All that Cunning Sneak allows you to do is roll stealth for Hidden with any cover or concealment (except cover provided by allies) if you move at least 3 squares from your starting location, and they can move their full movement rate with no penalties. Additionally, after running they can roll stealth with a -5 penalty instead of the normal -10.