rdw in legacy?

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how proficient and quick is it in current matchups?  

My other question is: would many of the standard list rdw cards be efficient in legacy?  I dont see why a rdw wouldnt use stromkirk noble or chandra's phoenix or the recently new vexing devil over other one drops like goblin guide.
With the exception of the Devil, they're absolutely terrible.

Noble is way too slow in a format where the one-drop of choice is a 2/2 with haste with no draw back.  The evasion is usless.

Phoenix is way too slow.  By the time a red player could play it in Legacy, the game should be over or it would be worth 9 points of damage.

Basically, Legacy red decks (and there's really only Burn) care way too much about mana and card effeciency.  If the average damage/card or damage/mana is 3 (the deck is basically Goblin Guide, Keldon Marauders, Figure of Destiny, Price of Progress and 27-30 Lightning Bolts), a 1 CMC 1/1 that won't deal damage and a 3 CMC 2/2 simply won't cut it.

As for the Devil, it has the potential.  It does suffer from the Browbeat symptom.  If you offer the opponent a choice, you're going to get the outcome you don't want.  For example, you play Devil on turn 1 thinking "if they take the 4 damage, it's awesome and if they don't, a 4/3 on an empty board is ok too".  However, if they take the damage, they're probably playing a deck where they're sure they can kill you before the 4 damage is relevant.  If they let you keep it, you can be sure they have removal for it.  Basically, you'll just have wasted a deck slot.
Thnx that is wat i was thinking. How is it against other decks such as countertop, zoo(i assume it does bad against zoo), merfolk, dredge,elves, __land deck, etc?
Is it A strong deck in legacy?

I feel that Vexing Devil differs from Browbeat in that the same resource is in question no matter what they pick and the card is extremely competitively priced no matter what they pick. In a burn deck it literally doesn't matter what they pick, they are GOING to take at least 4 damage for 1 red mana, which is crazy for burn, and if they let it resolve it gives you repeatable 4 damage at a point in the game where the best any creature could do is trade with it and you have boatloads of burn to deal with their creatures, anyway. The drawback makes it play to Red's strengths all the more.


But I actually think Browbeat is good in burn, too. I've likely played multiple cards every turn, my hand is very likely to be nearly empty, and I've been dealing ridiculous amounts of damage, so you either take a whole turn's worth of damage or give me the tools to deal even more damage to you. I think its biggest shortcoming is that it is a sorcery... It would be NUTS as an instant.

@Kinsonal:  I have no idea what you're asking.  Are you asking if Burn (it's not called RDW in Legacy) is good against the field?  If so, you need to know that none of those decks you listed are big contenders in the format any more.  Dredge is still a decent force, but is pretty different than what it used to be.  CounterTop isn't really a deck, but a sub-theme in some control decks.  Elves occasionally show up, but not in force.  Lands is very fringe.  Zoo is basically dead, as is Merfolk.

Burn is only ok against the current metagame.  Basically, if the metagame is completely unprepared, it can do well.  If the metagame is in any way prepared, it loses.  A big strike against it being good is Scavenging Ooze, which has been repalcing Tarmogoyf in most green creature builds.  Not only that, but when you have many of the other decks dropping Batterskulls on turn 3, it's not good for the deck.  Basically, there are tons of decks with incidental lifegain maindeck right now, which seriously hampers Burn's ability to win games.

@Iam_IronMan:  I'm pretty sure the jury's come back on Browbeat and it's not good news.  It's pretty mcuh the definition of a trap now days.  Considering that it would be the most expensive card in Burn, it's not worth the slots.

Vexing Devil differs only slightly from Browbeat, but it's the same trap.  Yes, you want a 4/3 for 1 and you'd want 4 damage for 1.  However, you don't want 4 damage against an opponent who doesn't care about the life and you don't want a 4/3 against an opponent who can deal with it easily (and a 4/3 doesn't garuantee that the opponent takes 4 damage).  Unfortunately, that's what you'll be getting a vast amount of the time, a card that gives you an unwanted effect.

Obviously, Vexing Devil requires some testing.  It might prove to not be a trap like Browbeat, but it certainly looks that way.  I personally think it can't be worse than Figure of Destiny, but that might not be true.
Sorrythat im not up to date on my knowlede. What are a few of the top contenders atm?
Contenders:
Tempo:
RUG Delver
UW/x Stoneforge
Team America [If built this way]

Control-ish:
Team America [If built this way]
Control Junk

Midrange:
Standard Junk
Maverick

Combo:
Dredge
ANT [surprisingly]
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I see why maverick is doing well but can someone explain to me why RUG builds are doing so well? Is it mainly because of delver and the usual goyf etc.?
3/2's for are generally way above the curve. RUG has answers and threats at the same time.
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thnx for all the info! do you guys think legacy might decrease in popularity since (imo) it is getting very expensive?
It's been expensive for ages. If anything, it's become MORE affordable lately, since all the good creatures have been printed rather recently. 
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Now is probably one of the cheaper opt in times in a bit.
Old favourites like Goblins and Merfolk would have decended to low prices.
The top contenders are currently very stocked up on newer creatures.
Lands will cost you a trillion, but they will only raise with time.
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@Iam_IronMan:  I'm pretty sure the jury's come back on Browbeat and it's not good news.  It's pretty mcuh the definition of a trap now days.  Considering that it would be the most expensive card in Burn, it's not worth the slots.

Vexing Devil differs only slightly from Browbeat, but it's the same trap.  Yes, you want a 4/3 for 1 and you'd want 4 damage for 1.  However, you don't want 4 damage against an opponent who doesn't care about the life and you don't want a 4/3 against an opponent who can deal with it easily (and a 4/3 doesn't garuantee that the opponent takes 4 damage).  Unfortunately, that's what you'll be getting a vast amount of the time, a card that gives you an unwanted effect.


The verdict on Browbeat is mostly because Browbeat is simply far too expensive for Legacy. In the ol' Extended it was moderately viable, but it still provided the fault of "choice". Though, in comparison to Vexing Devil, it is vastly superior as far as effect.

One of the strong points of burn is that removal becomes dead. You begin to include creatures into that, and you make all of those otherwise "dead" cards in their hand become useful. Vexing Devil surely dies, and your opponent has wasted a card that was wasted anyway. Either that, or they take four damage. Which, if it was straight up 1cc = 4dmg, that'd be nice (not fan-****ing-tastic), but it's not.

On the other hand, Browbeat provides five damage for 3cc or draws three cards. Neither of those are a bad thing. They're simply lessened by the choice.
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But burn lists aren't creatureless right now.  There's at the very least Goblin Guide, probably more depending on the list, and almost always enough that their removal isn't dead.  My own burn deck runs 11 creatures (none that kill themselves), and I've added 2 Devils to test. 
And you don't want to drop him turn one.  Go to turn 3 or 4 when you've already played some burn, they've used a couple removal on your Guides and whatnot, and you have a couple cards left in hand.  Then it's a much harder decision than turn 1, take 4.  They have to weigh dropping into Fireblast range vs hoping they can get enough removal.

I still have plenty of testing to do, but I think he'll be good.
But burn lists aren't creatureless right now.  There's at the very least Goblin Guide, probably more depending on the list, and almost always enough that their removal isn't dead.  My own burn deck runs 11 creatures (none that kill themselves), and I've added 2 Devils to test.


Feel like posting your list? That sounds very much like RDW...
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92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
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Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
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Feel like posting your list? That sounds very much like RDW...


Sure.  It's actually Rb.  It's still partly proxied so I haven't taken it to any real tournaments, but I can kill regularly on turn 4 in the testing I've done.


6 Fetch lands
Feel like posting your list? That sounds very much like RDW...


Sure.  It's actually Rb.  It's still partly proxied so I haven't taken it to any real tournaments, but I can kill regularly on turn 4 in the testing I've done.


6 Fetch lands

Cut looting, and bloodghast. More Price of Progress, less Reckless Abandon. Rift Bolt should certainly be a 4 of.

Also, if you think about it a little, Vexing Devil is Reckless Abandon 2.0
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That is more Satanic Sligh/Red Deck Wins than it is burn. By far.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
That is more Satanic Sligh/Red Deck Wins than it is burn. By far.


There are 25 burn spells.  Plus 7 cheap creatures with haste (some conditionally), then 7 card draw effects, some of which attack.  Replace Confidant and Bloodghast with something like Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders and it's a typical burn list.  The Looting is unusual, but between that and Confidant I see a lot more cards than the average burn deck.  And of course it's awesome when I get a Bloodghast with it.

There are 25 burn spells.  Plus 7 cheap creatures with haste (some conditionally), then 7 card draw effects, some of which attack.


This count does not differ in any way from RDW/Satanic Sligh. However, 25% of your deck is atypical with regards to Burn.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


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92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
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58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
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Am I the only one that thinks Goblin Guide isn't that good? I've had a few games where I would swear I honestly won just because it gave me so many cards. 2/2 haste for 1 is good any day of the week, but I feel like I'd rather run something like Jackal Pup.
Extra cards don't matter when you're dead.

If they're not dead by turn 4, you better have a sulfuric vortex out, or you've lost as burn.
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Extra cards don't matter when you're dead.


If they're not dead by turn 4, you better have a sulfuric vortex out, or you've lost as burn.




Uh, extra cards are exactly what stops you from being dead...

Extra cards don't matter when you're dead.


If they're not dead by turn 4, you better have a sulfuric vortex out, or you've lost as burn.




Uh, extra cards are exactly what stops you from being dead...


Not necessarily.

You're getting effective card 'advantage' anyway in a burn deck by running Goblin Guide, as it almost always is at least a 4-6 damage spell, making it equivalent to at least a Bolt or two per game. Often you wont get punished due to the low land counts in Legacy.
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The only problem with Goblin Guide is the inherent issue of being a creature. Beyond that, it is perfectly suitable and its drawback does not make it definitively better or worse than a Keldon Marauders.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


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92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO

The only problem with Goblin Guide is the inherent issue of being a creature. Beyond that, it is perfectly suitable and its drawback does not make it definitively better or worse than a Keldon Marauders.


What does Keldon Marauders have to do with anything?

The only problem with Goblin Guide is the inherent issue of being a creature. Beyond that, it is perfectly suitable and its drawback does not make it definitively better or worse than a Keldon Marauders.


What does Keldon Marauders have to do with anything?


Its another creature that goes into burn. What jellydonut said was comparatively, Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are the same, despite Guide giving potential for extra lands.
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Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are the same


Except for being different in every way.

Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are the same


Except for being different in every way.


Fun fact!
If you take things out of context, you get nonsensical statements! 
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
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Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide are the same


Except for being different in every way.


Fun fact!
If you take things out of context, you get nonsensical statements! 


There is no context where that statement is correct. Unless you want to go with obvious, pointless trivialities, like both of them being red creatures.
If you were to take Goblin Guide out of any red Legacy deck, Keldon Marauders would be the first creature in line to replace it.  In that context, it's perfectly reasonable to say that Guide and Marauder are equal (which is what that quote said, if you had included more of it).
What the quote says is that Goblin Guide's drawback is a non-issue. That's it.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
What the quote says is that Goblin Guide's drawback is a non-issue. That's it.


That's not what it says at all. You said they are the same, then immediately named a fundamental way that they are different. How does that make light of any similarities? The two cards don't have a single comparable effect between them. I could have let it slide if you were talking about Brainstorm and Ponder, two cards with a similar end result which are carried out in very different and sometimes technically relevant ways, but you may as well say River Boa and Blurred Mongoose are the same. In fact, those two actually have more in common, yet they really couldn't be any more different in actual effect.

"Its drawback does not make it definitively better or worse than a Keldon Marauders."

That is what I posted. This isn't even semantics. The only thing that is happening, is you are taking my statement entirely out of context. Your reading comprehension is abysmally awful.

lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
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58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
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"Its drawback does not make it definitively better or worse than a Keldon Marauders."

That is what I posted. This isn't even semantics. The only thing that is happening, is you are taking my statement entirely out of context. Your reading comprehension is abysmally awful.





That was my original question though, who the hell said anything about Keldon Marauders and what the hell does it have to do with Goblin Guide?


Again, I could see if we were talking about something like Mog Fanatic and Goblin Arsonist. In fact, to make a more relevant example, if we were talking about Goblin Guide and Jackal Pup or some other 1 cost 2 power creature with possibly some drawback, but it has nothing in common with marauders to make a comparison. The fact that they go in the same deck doesn't make them related.


Drawback or not, the two cards are already not definitively worse than one or the other because they have different applications and are played at different times for different reasons. So the drawback is irrelevant in saying one is better or worse than the other right from the start. It's a nonsense argument. We may as well just begin our next debate on why Mana Leak is not functionally better or worse than Repulse

The fact that they go in the same deck doesn't make them related.


It absolutely does make them related.  What they have in common is that they are two of the best creatures to run in a burn deck.  The fact that two cards can go in the same deck is the best reason to compare them, and they don't need to be incredibly similar to do so. 
Nobody is suggesting that Guide and Marauders are virtually the same creature.  What you're not getting here is that people are talking about the power level of the cards, not comparing every stat to find which cards are most similar.
The fact that they go in the same deck doesn't make them related.


It absolutely does make them related.  What they have in common is that they are two of the best creatures to run in a burn deck.  The fact that two cards can go in the same deck is the best reason to compare them, and they don't need to be incredibly similar to do so. 
Nobody is suggesting that Guide and Marauders are virtually the same creature.  What you're not getting here is that people are talking about the power level of the cards, not comparing every stat to find which cards are most similar.


Then, like I said, where are the debates on whether or not Mana Leak or Repulse is more powerful, or even equivalent? It's assinine to say that two cards in the same deck are comparable for the same reason that it's assinine to compare different fruits because they are in the same section of the grocery store. There's no comparison between Lightning Bolt and Wheel of Fortune, for example. No comparison between Wrath of God and Land Tax(they both can provide serious card advantage, that's really it.) You can't say "these two cards, which are totally different and share absolutely nothing in common, are on approximately the same arbitrary power level and used in the same deck, therefore that drawback is irrelevant." It doesn't logically follow and makes absolutely no sense. It's not even USEFUL to compare cards in such a way.
Except that the fuctionality of both Goblin Guide and Keldon Marauders in relation to a Durn deck are the same. Control decks need to have a nice split of control, card advantage, straight up draw, ways to kill their opponent, and half a dozen other things. Burn needs to kill. That's it. Damage to the face is the only condition of a card.

If you have four slots left in your Burn deck, and Goblin Guide and Keldon Marauders are the last picks, how do you decide? One of the ways you don't decide, is that you do not take into account Goblin Guide's land grant.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
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