A 'token' on top of your library to remind yourself of Miracle cards

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Back when even Pros lost games because they forgot Pacts' trigger (Pact of Negation etc), we were allowed to put a 'token' on top of our library to remind us of such payment. 

Can I do the same if I use Miracle cards in my deck and would like a 'reminder token' on top of my deck?

If someone can clarify, that would be great.  Thanks.
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Yes, you can do that. 

From the magic tournament rules:
3.8 Game Markers

Small items (e.g. glass beads) may be used as markers and placed on top of a player’s own library or graveyard as a reminder for in-game effects. These markers may not disguise the number of cards remaining in that zone nor completely obscure any card.


As long as it doesn't mark the deck in any way, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm assuming you mean having a piece of paper that you would put on top of the deck after every draw.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

I thought I read somewhere that you couldnt use a card, and by that I thought that a card sized object (like a Tips & Tricks card or a Token) wouldnt be allowed. Since the Emblems were printed, I have refrained from putting them on top of my deck for this reason. However, from the rule quoted above it sounds like doing such a thing would be legal (as long as you didnt cover the whole top card, so you could put the Emblem/Token/Tips card on top at a 90 degree angle for example). Before I try this at a tournament, is this correct?

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
As long as it is not confusing to any players. If you are using a sleeved deck, a token card looks very different from a card in your deck, so I think it would be fine.

If you are using an unsleeved deck, than you should not put a token on top of your deck, because there is chance for confusion.
As long as it is not confusing to any players. If you are using a sleeved deck, a token card looks very different from a card in your deck, so I think it would be fine.


I sleeve my Emblems in different colors to the rest of the deck they are for.  

If you are using an unsleeved deck


If I ever found myself playing with an unsleeved deck (*shudder*) I would have far bigger problems that what I could put on top of my deck (;)).

Cheers!

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
As long as it is not confusing to any players. If you are using a sleeved deck, a token card looks very different from a card in your deck, so I think it would be fine.

I sleeve my Emblems in different colors to the rest of the deck they are for.

If you are using sleeved cards, I would not put another sleeved card on top of the deck even if they are different colours.
As long as it is not confusing to any players. If you are using a sleeved deck, a token card looks very different from a card in your deck, so I think it would be fine.

I sleeve my Emblems in different colors to the rest of the deck they are for.

If you are using sleeved cards, I would not put another sleeved card on top of the deck even if they are different colours.


So a deck in red sleeves, with no effects that mean I play with the top card revealed (so everything is face down), with Koth's Emblem on top, face up in an orange sleeve, at 90 degrees to the cards in the deck, wouldnt be OK?

~ Tim 

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
there can be no confusion about the number of cards in the deck

as long as it can't be mistaken for a card it is fine
proud member of the 2011 community team
I wouldn't use anything that looks like a card.
  
3.8 Game Marker.
Small items (e.g. glass beads) may be used as markers and placed on top of a player’s own library or graveyard as a reminder for in-game effects. These markers may not disguise the number of cards remaining in that zone nor completely obscure any card.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

If there's even a QUESTION that it could cause confusion, why would anyone even consider doing it? Dice are dirt cheap. Homeless people can afford a couple dice. Put one or a bunch on top of the deck. Simple solution, zero potential for confusion.

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

I wouldn't use anything that looks like a card.
  
3.8 Game Marker.
Small items (e.g. glass beads) may be used as markers and placed on top of a player’s own library or graveyard as a reminder for in-game effects. These markers may not disguise the number of cards remaining in that zone nor completely obscure any card.




If there's even a QUESTION that it could cause confusion, why would anyone even consider doing it? Dice are dirt cheap. .




Ya I agree.  Good to know about the tourny rule.  That will help clear up confusion and/or argument for our FNM.  There are always people who intentionally 'challenge' the rules and 'do something special' ...  

IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/745727m/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/7k579ty/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/bqglk5j/.gif)IMAGE(http://tinyurl.com/7rozc6g/.gif)
If there's even a QUESTION that it could cause confusion, why would anyone even consider doing it? Dice are dirt cheap. Homeless people can afford a couple dice. Put one or a bunch on top of the deck. Simple solution, zero potential for confusion.


Not sure if that was directed at me or someone else, but I wasnt asking whether it would cause confusion (IMHO it would not), but whether or not it was allowed.

From the rules quoted, I believe it is.

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
The trouble with phrases like "could cause confusion" is that they either have to pass the test of the reasonable man, or they have to be assessed on a per-case basis.

If your opponent is confused, then the rule is violated. I am not a judge, but if I were a judge, and I was called over to judge this type of thing, then I would attempt to resolve it by applying a reasonable man test. If you are using a card, despite its color sleeve, and the opponent says he is confused, I would rule that you cannot use a card. If you are using a glass token or a die (or anything that is not a card), and the opponent says he is confused, I would tell the opponent to forget his complaint, because a glass bead cannot be confused as a card by a reasonable man.

The point is, you can never know what an actual jusdge would rule. But if you use a glass bead, it would be hard to argue with because the rules mention that as ok.
I can see your point, but Im not sure it would be reasonable for an opponent to claim confusion when:

- The front face of the Emblem (which looks nothing like the back of my plain red sleeves) is showing: [image]www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/feature...[/image]
- the Emblem is in a different colored sleeve to the cards in my deck, so even the edge isnt the same color
- the Emblem is at 90 degrees to the cards in my deck (if my library is in the "untapped" position, the Emblem is "tapped"), this means the plain red sleeve covering the back of the top card of my library is still partially visible, and the height of my library is plain to see
- will have explained to my opponent what I was doing when I made the Emblem, and when I put it on top of my library

Thoughts?  

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Use the emblem normally, but if  your opponent decides to be difficult by saying he's confused, just switch to a glass bead. There's no point in letting him draw you into making a scene out of it.
I can see your point, but Im not sure it would be reasonable for an opponent to claim confusion when:

- The front face of the Emblem (which looks nothing like the back of my plain red sleeves) is showing: [image]www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/feature...[/image]
- the Emblem is in a different colored sleeve to the cards in my deck, so even the edge isnt the same color
- the Emblem is at 90 degrees to the cards in my deck (if my library is in the "untapped" position, the Emblem is "tapped"), this means the plain red sleeve covering the back of the top card of my library is still partially visible, and the height of my library is plain to see
- will have explained to my opponent what I was doing when I made the Emblem, and when I put it on top of my library

Thoughts?  

~ Tim




It's going to be up to a judge.  The rule doesn't explicitly allow or disallow what you want to do, as the rule is somewhat vague on what a ''small object' is.
Thanks for the replies guys.

Normally I use a red D6 on top of my library to remind me to ping my opponent with my lands before I start my turn, but I recently got a copy of Koth vs Venser so now I have the proper Emblem as well. 

the rule is somewhat vague on what a ''small object' is.


Isnt it anything small enough to not complete obscure the top card?

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
I think it was deemed illegal to do this in tournaments at one stage. In casual games, I often place cards with a pending echo cost actually leaning against the edge of my deck - this is very likely illegal still.

I remember wondering if a suitable workaround to the rule about placing tokens on your deck might be to physically "tap" your entire deck sideways to visually remind yourself "there's something I have to do before I draw a card".
I cannot fathom why this discussion even exists; the answer was so easy:
why would anyone even consider doing it? Dice are dirt cheap. Homeless people can afford a couple dice. Put one or a bunch on top of the deck. Simple solution, zero potential for confusion.



It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Thanks for the replies guys.

Normally I use a red D6 on top of my library to remind me to ping my opponent with my lands before I start my turn, but I recently got a copy of Koth vs Venser so now I have the proper Emblem as well. 

the rule is somewhat vague on what a ''small object' is.


Isnt it anything small enough to not complete obscure the top card?

~ Tim 



That's not what it says, so we can't say one way or another how big a small object is.

To some people, a loaf of bread is a "small object".  We can make up our own definitions based on what we consider reasonable, we can even agree with each other.  That doesn't make it correct or incorrect though, since the description is vague.  Ultimately, if you and your opponent can't agree, it will be up to a judge.
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