## Carnage Axe and crit

7 posts / 0 new
DanMathMan
Joined Jul 2003
150 Posts
Carnage axe has a property that if at least one of the damage dice rolls maximum, the axe does extra damage. Does the axe do that extra property damage on a crit

Dan
salla
Joined Apr 2003
23510 Posts
No, at least not automatically; the property says 'when you roll'.  If you critically hit, you rolled no dice, and therefore any 'when you roll' triggers do not go off.

The extra d12s you get from critting, however, *might* activate the property, if you rolled a 12.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
No, the Carnage Weapon's Property never trigger on a Crit because it specifically require that you roll, something you never do when you Crit because the target takes damage as if the maximum had been rolled.

FWIW We had a similar discussion not long ago on a related topic (Vorpal vs Crit) here

DSCS 125 Carnage Weapon: When you roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice, the target takes extra damage equal to twice the weapon’s enhancement bonus.

RC 217 Maximum Damage: When an attack scores a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don't make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. However, attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit.
toriant
Joined Apr 2009
449 Posts
No, the Carnage Weapon's Property never trigger on a Crit because it specifically require that you roll, something you never do when you Crit because the target takes damage as if the maximum had been rolled.

FWIW We had a similar discussion not long ago on a related topic (Vorpal vs Crit) here

DSCS 125 Carnage Weapon: When you roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice, the target takes extra damage equal to twice the weapon’s enhancement bonus.

RC 217 Maximum Damage: When an attack scores a critical hit against a target, the target takes the maximum damage possible from the attack. Don't make a damage roll. Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage. However, attacks that don't deal damage still don't deal damage on a critical hit.

So since you don't roll for damage, can you even apply damage modifiers that trigger on damage rolls? Mind that there are weapons without critical hit dice, like Challenge Seeking or Distant. Since the RC tells us to not make a damage roll, criticals with these weapons can actually be less damage than noncrits.
ThatWasTotallyNinja
Joined Jan 2011
1187 Posts
Carnage axe has a property that if at least one of the damage dice rolls maximum, the axe does extra damage. Does the axe do that extra property damage on a crit

Dan

Plague linked to the thread where this was discussed in depth. But to summarize the counter-argument to what others are saying:

If you look at the RC quote that Plague posted, you'll notice the line "the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage." No, you do not roll anything... but you treat it as though you did roll, and you rolled maximum. So you would get the extra damage.

There are other arguments (on both sides) if you wanna check the thread.
Yeah it can go both ways.

While its true that the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage, you never actually roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice.

VS

Since the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage, you effectively count as having rolled the maximum result on at least one of this weapon’s damage dice.

Consolidated Customer Service Answer Post #421:

Customer (Aximus Lokar) 02/12/2009 12:09 AM I was wondering if the Vorpal property(Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll an additional die) activates on a critical hit(max damage). The way I see it there are two possibilities. 1) Max'd damage triggers Vorpal as it is the maximum result on the die. Roll the additional dice and proceed as normal from there. 2) Max'd damage does -not- trigger Vorpal as it does not '-roll- the maximum result'. A friend also has a weird interpretation that a Vorpal critical 'explodes in a cloud of kittens', which is to say that each added die is also maxed because it is not Extra Damage granted by the critical itself. ie. 1d10(#1)(maxed from crit: 10. Roll extra d10 #2). 1d10(#2)(maxed from crit: 10. Roll extra d10 #3). 1d10(#3)(Kittens. You get the idea). Can you confirm that he is, indeed, completely and officially whacked in the head?

Response (Support Agent) 02/12/2009 09:15 AM Aximus, Critical hits are maximized by default, and no dice are rolled. The rolls you make on your critical hit bonus damage get to be rolled again if they are highest number on the die. Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Consolidated Customer Service Answer Post #117:
Problem 1: The Vorpal property on a weapon says: "Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding." Question 1: If I get a critical hit (natural 20) with a weapon, I treat it "as though" I have rolled maximum damage. However, for the purpose of Vorpal Weapon's reroll property kicking in, did I technically "roll maximum damage" on those dice? In other words, with a Vorpal Falchion do I get to start rerolling the two d4's I just max-rolled as part of the critical?

Their response: Greetings, 1) You do not count the dice you maximize because of a critical hit for Vorpal weapon. These dice are not "rolled" and consequently do not trigger that power.

Jay_Ibero_911
Joined Feb 2006
5917 Posts
If it is a high crit weapon, then since you would roll [W] dice on a crit, you could potentially trigger the property on a crit even if using the interpretation that the property isn't automatically triggered by the crit.

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LFR: Embrace the travelling carnival of exotic murder hobos. - Bargle0