Half-Elf CHA rogue

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I'm working on a half-elf rogue for a solo campaign. I don't like the bonuses for a half-elf, but I worked it out with my build. I'm allowed a 24-pt build over the 22, so I made a few changes for that. I am using a rapier and shield for background character purposes and who doesn't like seeing a rapier backstab an enemy?

My big question with it is what to use my dilettante ability for? I know DEX/CHA(maybe CON) attacks are all I can really use effectively, and that limits the classes I can steal an attack from. Can I take the Dragon Strike from the monk and use it effectively, though it's implement based and not weapon? If not, besides twin strike what melee based attacks would fit in? 

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STR 10
CON 15 (13 + racial)
DEX 18
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 16 (14 + racial)

HP 27(13 BL)
Surge Value 6
Surge/Day 8

AC 21 (10 +1 shield +3 Artful Dodger +3 Magic Leather Armor +4 DEX)
FORT 12 (10 + 2 Con)
REF 18 (10 +2 Rogue +1 Shield +4 DEX +1 Armor)
WILL 13 (10 +3 CHA)

At-wills
sly flourish
piercing strike 

Encounter 
Positioning Strike
(Dragon's Tail)

Daily
Trick Strike

Feat
Weapon Proficiency (Rapier) 

Equipment
Rapier , Magic Leather Armor, Light Shield, Acrobat Boots, any GP left from 100 starting. (The 2 magic items are coming to me for free.)
 
Lightblades can be impliments, so you can still get your sneak attack.

Also, half-elfs can turn their dilitante into a Cha based attack, so you've got quite a number to choose from.

That said, twin-strike is one of the strongest.  So just toss 2 daggers, or shoot 2 bolts.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah, Ranged Twin Strike.  Melee, on a STR-rogue.  You're not going to be the best of Rogues if you are playing with a race with two non-class stat bumps, but goign 16/16 DEX/STR, and using Twin Strike probably has some mileage when you consider that you get an accuracy bump from daggers.

Or Adept Dilettanting it to CHA has some legs, too.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
As others have noted, if you go adept you can swap CHA for any power you grab (but this locks you into the MC of that class, so heads up if you had plans for that).

In heroic twin is usually your best bet for a once an encounter (or twice if martial) power, only because it is potentially strong/useful enough to warrant only having once an encounter. Just remember that w/o adept dil, you are stuck using it at ranged. Some wizard powers might also be handy for gimmick (hypnotism, aoe minion clearing, mob positioning) but will also require adept.

Once in paragon, eldritch strike can become extremely versatile as your MBA if you MC arcane for any of the white lotus feats.
Lightblades can be impliments, so you can still get your sneak attack.

Also, half-elfs can turn their dilitante into a Cha based attack, so you've got quite a number to choose from.

That said, twin-strike is one of the strongest.  So just toss 2 daggers, or shoot 2 bolts.



So what you're saying is that my rapier would be considered an implement, but would I not have to also have multi-class monk to use it as such? I plan on taking Melee Training (DEX) 4th or 6th level.

I like twin-strike, but if it's not useable while carrying a shield, then it does me no good for this build. I was really trying to not multi-class, and focus on just making a good DEX/CHA rogue.
Lightblades can be impliments, so you can still get your sneak attack.

Also, half-elfs can turn their dilitante into a Cha based attack, so you've got quite a number to choose from.

That said, twin-strike is one of the strongest.  So just toss 2 daggers, or shoot 2 bolts.

So what you're saying is that my rapier would be considered an implement, but would I not have to also have multi-class monk to use it as such? I plan on taking Melee Training (DEX) 4th or 6th level.

I like twin-strike, but if it's not useable while carrying a shield, then it does me no good for this build. I was really trying to not multi-class, and focus on just making a good DEX/CHA rogue.

You'd need to multiclass into something arcane and take arcane impliment proficency.  Or multiclass into swordmage.  But then you dillitante with say... five storms, and apply sneak attack to someone, as well as any other lightblade things you picked up.

Or get twin-strike and throw daggers.

I also recommend keeping to daggers either way.  You get +1 to hit with them, which is usually more importaint then the 1d4 damage size.  Plus, if you have a warlord, he can tell you to throw them.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That's right, I forgot your shield request. In general, there aren't going to be any standout powers for a rogue who isn't dual wielding that is either Dex or Cha. Instead of taking melee training, you could take one of the Cha powers that count as an MBA (eldritch strike, the pali one). That way you don't really need to grab the melee training feat (since you likely won't need a straight MBA more than once an encounter).
The classic Eyebite is also decent for cha rogue even though it is ranged, as long as you do not mind spending resources for an implement at higher levels or using a ki focus with elemental initiate theme.

Eldrtich strike is ok and will take care of your MBA issue.

I would probably go with a monk one since it will also give you a movement technique and its the only implement one where you can use a rapier as implement by default.  Probably fallen needle for the minor action move/shift or cranes wings.

The vampire also has some ok ones, taste of life (temp hitpoints keyed to charisma) and vampire slam (MBA that pushes), but those also require you getting an implement somehow.

Also if your DM allows backgrounds, there are a couple (gritty sargeant and noble bred for war) that will give you rapier proficiency as part fo the background and save you a feat.
What about changing my stats around to this:

STR 14
CON 16   (14+2)
DEX  16
INT   8
WIS 10
CHA 16 (14+2)

5 Cha +9 Dex +5 Con + 5 STR = 24 pts. Then I take Strength of Stone from the Warden's At-will list. It's STR & Weapon based, plus I get THP=Con Mod. I think that would help keep me from MC into something I really don't want later on. I am focused on DEX based melees with CHA as my secondary to help with Artful Dodge.
The classic Eyebite is also decent for cha rogue even though it is ranged, as long as you do not mind spending resources for an implement at higher levels or using a ki focus with elemental initiate theme.

Eldrtich strike is ok and will take care of your MBA issue.

I would probably go with a monk one since it will also give you a movement technique and its the only implement one where you can use a rapier as implement by default.  Probably fallen needle for the minor action move/shift or cranes wings.

The vampire also has some ok ones, taste of life (temp hitpoints keyed to charisma) and vampire slam (MBA that pushes), but those also require you getting an implement somehow.

Also if your DM allows backgrounds, there are a couple (gritty sargeant and noble bred for war) that will give you rapier proficiency as part fo the background and save you a feat.


I can't use backgrounds or themes for this build unfortunately. I'll have to look at Eldritch Strike, since MBAs are all I hope to be taking. (no RBAs). The monk is still appealing though. Should I not take melee training and MC into monk instead for that path?
I would go for a starting 18.  Its really a good idea with dex primary classes to do that.

And how much will you use your MBAs?    You are soloing so no leader to grant you attacks and how often will you charge or make an OA as an artful dodger rogue.
I would go for a starting 18.  Its really a good idea with dex primary classes to do that.

And how much will you use your MBAs?    You are soloing so no leader to grant you attacks and how often will you charge or make an OA as an artful dodger rogue.



I hope I don't really have to use MBAs at all. I'd like to use the hell out of my at-wills when my other powers are used up. And I really doubt I'll ever charge either. So, I'll leave my ability scores what the first post showed then.

Can I still take Weapon Prof. (Rapier) at level 1 for my rogue attacks, and then pick up MC monk @ level 2? I was thinking of taking Crane's Wings going with the monk theme. Would it be basically useless for level 1 without that implement "training?" Or pick up a dagger/short sword for level 1 & MC Monk, and pick up the rapier at level 2 when I take Rapier Prof.?

I've looked at all the stuff I can from the rogue's guide, and taken the attacks from PHB1 that had the best feel to my character. I didn't realize shields weren't a natural proficiency. Going with a rapier and an off-hand dagger instead. Picking up Twin Strike. Do you still get the dagger +1 to attacks if it is your off-hand weapon?

This is what I have come up with:
Show

Half Elf Rogue
Artful Dodger

STR 10
CON 15
DEX 18
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 16

HP:27  Surge Value: 6  Surges/Day: 8
AC: 17  Fort: 12  Ref: 17  Will:13
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Thievery, Stealth, Insight & Perception

Starting:
At-Will: Sly Flourish & Piercing Strike
Encounter: Dazing Strike(1)
Daily: Trick Strike (1), Twin Strike (Ranger)

Encounter:
Bait & Switch(3)
Sand in the Eyes(7)
Stunning Strike(13, for Positioning Strike)
Hounding Strike(17, for Bait & Switch)
Steel Entrapment(23, for Stunning Strike)
Perfect Strike(27, Steel Entrapment)

Daily:
Walking Wounded(5)
Knockout (9)
Slaying Strike(15, for Trick Strike),
Feinting Flurry(19, for Knockout)
Ghost on the Wind(25, for Slaying Strike)
Immobilizing Strike(29, Walking Wounded)

Utility:
Fleeting Ghost(2)
Chameleon(6)
Brisk Stride(10)
Leaping Dodge(16)
Dazzling Acrobatics(22)

PP: Shadow Assassin
ED: Deadly Trickster

Feats:
1- Weapon Prof. (Rapier)
2- Improved Initiative
4- Focus Expertise (Rapier)
6- Nimble Blade
8- Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
10- Backstabber
11- Expert Sneak
12- Agile Athlete
14- Devestating Critical
16- Paragon Defenses
18- Light Blade Precision
20- Fleet-Footed
22- Light Blade Mastery
24- Epic Resurgence
26- Epic Fortitude
28- Triumphant Attack
30- Unfettered Stride

Equipment:
2 daggers (lv 1)
Magic leather Armor (lv1) [free]
20 Shuriken (lv1)
Acrobat Boots (lv2) [free]
-----
Weapon: Vicious Rapier (lv2), Battlemaster's Dagger(lv 14+)
Hand:  Gauntlets of Blood (lv4)--> Gauntlets of Destruction(lv18)
Arms:  Iron Armbands of Power(lv 6)
Feet:   Boots of the Fencing Master(lv 7)
Neck:  Steadfast Amulet (lv8)
Waist: Diamond Cincture (lv10)
Head:  Basilisk Helm (lv15)
Ring:  War Ring (lv16), Ring of Tenacious Will (Lv 21)
Armor:  Shadowflow Armor (13+)
Misc:  Backlash Tattoo (lv 9)
Rogues get +1 to hit with daggers.

Doesn't matter if it's off-hand, used as an implement, thrown, or whatever.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

thanks for that clarification. I guess this build is going to work. Hope it plays as well as I'm thinking it will.
When I read the thread title, I assumed you meant a Daring Blade build. I am surprised that no one had mentioned it yet. Then again, if you are playign from 1, heroic is going to suck.
When I read the thread title, I assumed you meant a Daring Blade build. I am surprised that no one had mentioned it yet. Then again, if you are playign from 1, heroic is going to suck.



My heroic tier is going to suck, or a Daring Blade build?
Sorry that I didn't flesh out that comment before, but I had to rush off.

I am a little surprised that Daring Blade hadn't received any mention in this thread. It is such an interesting Paragon Path for a CHA-Rogue, simply because it re-keys every martial attack to Charisma, allowing you to focus on that. It opens up a lot of interesting options, but for a build which is to be played from first level, it doesn't present a very enjoyable character as you are effectively stuck MBA charge-spamming with a melee-training CHA character, with perhaps Bracers of Mental Might for Low Slash 1/enc for the entire Heroic Tier.

If you are building a character to start at Paragon, esspecially in a solo-campaign (where you can't rely upon another party 'face'), Daring Blade is an option, but I don't think it is a serious one from an optimisation stand-point. It is far more a novel option, where you do interesting things like leverage Duelist's Panache and perhaps steal Bard powers. Daring Blade is a fun approach for a Charisma-focused rogue, but probably isn't the best approach in this case.
Sorry that I didn't flesh out that comment before, but I had to rush off.

I am a little surprised that Daring Blade hadn't received any mention in this thread. It is such an interesting Paragon Path for a CHA-Rogue, simply because it re-keys every martial attack to Charisma, allowing you to focus on that. It opens up a lot of interesting options, but for a build which is to be played from first level, it doesn't present a very enjoyable character as you are effectively stuck MBA charge-spamming with a melee-training CHA character, with perhaps Bracers of Mental Might for Low Slash 1/enc for the entire Heroic Tier.

If you are building a character to start at Paragon, esspecially in a solo-campaign (where you can't rely upon another party 'face'), Daring Blade is an option, but I don't think it is a serious one from an optimisation stand-point. It is far more a novel option, where you do interesting things like leverage Duelist's Panache and perhaps steal Bard powers. Daring Blade is a fun approach for a Charisma-focused rogue, but probably isn't the best approach in this case.

It's all good. I just wanted to know if what I had presented was what you were saying was bad. I figured if it was you could give me help on how to improve it. Daring Blade sounds cool, but I think you're right in saying it's probably not my best option. I'm going to continue reading the forums and handbooks for those little tweaks to make my build solid.
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