Apologies for the Chains of Mephistopheles question

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Ok, I've read some of the other questions about this card but I wanted to ask because I want to be 100% certain on the possible interactions before buying this truly confusing card for my EDH Mill deck that would force large draws, large discards, and traditional mill cards.


If it and Howling Mine are on the board and a player has one card in hand at the beginning of his/her turn then that person would draw their first card to have two cards in hand. After that Howling Mine causes a second draw which would trigger Chains and that person would discard one of their two cards and Chains would cause that person to draw another card. The card from Chains does not count as an additional card causing another discard or does it?


If Font of Mythos is on the board and a player has no cards in hand at the beginning of his/her turn then that person would draw their first card to have one in hand. After that Font of Mythos causes a second and third draw which would trigger Chains twice and that person would discard the one card from their hand, mill one, and draw two.

If Wheel of Fortune was used you'd basically mill seven cards and have no hand?


I guess the big question is whether or not the card Chains forces you to draw would restart the cycle or not since I was going to use cards like Forced Fruition and Jace's Archivist to try to work through people's decks.

you could have also linked the card in question instead of every other card ;)
Chains of Mephistopheles

as for the actual question, no idea
proud member of the 2011 community team
lol Sorry, being that the card confused me I wasn't sure if the card text would do the same to anyone trying to read it. Still, it would have helped so others could go to the oracle too. My bad
Replacement effects can't replace the event they change. In other words, CoM will make you discard and draw another card, then the chain stops. That second draw won't be replaced.

So if Howling Mine is out, the draw step would look like this: Draw a card for the draw step turn action, then (discard a card and draw a card) for howling mine.

With Font of Mythos, the player would draw for their draw action, then discard a card and draw a crad for font of mythos, then discard and draw a crad for font of mythos. No milling happens.

Things that let you draw multiple cards really make you draw one card multiple times. In other words, Forced Fruition really says "Whenever an opponent casts a spell, that opponent draws a card, then draws a card, then draws a card, then draws a card, then draws a card, then draws a card, then draws a card." You can't draw multiple cards at the same time. Each individual draw gets replaced by CoM once. If your opponent has a card in his hand when Forced Fruition resolves for him, he will end up drawing a total of 7 cards, discarding a total of 7 cards, and milling a total of 0 cards.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

So Howling Mine they'd still end up with two cards in hand and Font of Mythos they'd still have three cards in hand after CoM triggered. Wheel of Fortune forces them to discard their hand first so would likely result in milling I take it?
So Howling Mine they'd still end up with two cards in hand and Font of Mythos they'd still have three cards in hand after CoM triggered. Wheel of Fortune forces them to discard their hand first so would likely result in milling I take it?


No. With Howling Mine, you're right, they'll end up with one card in hand. With Font of Mythos, they'll also end up with one card in hand. Here's the same scenario but step by step:

0 cards in hand.
Draw for draw step. (1 card in hand)
Font of Mythos trigger starts resolving.
Discard a card, then draw a card (1 card in hand).
Discard a card, then draw a card (1 card in hand).

With something like Wheel of Fortune, they would mill all the cards, because of course they discard their hand first. 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Thank you, I'm actually going to print this out since I have no doubt there would likely be milling and discarding and a wrong number of cards in hand otherwise. I think one of the things that may have added to the confusion was thinking that the card drawing artifact/enchantment/spell resolved before CoM caused a discard so it jumbled everything a bit
Thank you, I'm actually going to print this out since I have no doubt there would likely be milling and discarding and a wrong number of cards in hand otherwise. I think one of the things that may have added to the confusion was thinking that the card drawing artifact/enchantment/spell resolved before CoM caused a discard so it jumbled everything a bit


Can you give us one last scenario and what you believe would happen in that scenario?

Just to make sure you have it down pat. 
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
You should always go by the oracle wording on cards. Chains of Mephistopheles generates a replacement effect, not a triggered ability. The draw gets replaced by the discard. Replacement effects are actually really simple in that you can literally replace the text on the cards to get the result. Therefore, when CoM is on the field, Howling Mine might as well read

"At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player discards a card. If he or she does, that player draws a card. Otherwise, that player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

iamajellydonut: Sure thing, Wheel and Deal is cast on the turn of the opponent immideatly after my turn in a four player game during his first main phase.
I have 2 cards in hand after casting it.
The opponent whose turn it was cast on has three cards in hand.
The next opponent has one card in hand.
And the last opponent has 5 cards in hand. 

It's my firstdraw during that turn so nothing happens to me.
My opponents will discard their hands and mill seven cards.

Teferi's Puzzle Box for someone with two cards in hand at the beginning of the turn is one that could prove confusing if I had a Font of Mythos in play as well I think because of deciding which goes first. That one I'm not sure about...
Shard_Fenix: Another good thing to know for sure. Some of the finer points of the rules still alude me so it's good to be able to ask you guys when something like this comes up. Thanks :D
iamajellydonut: Sure thing, Wheel and Deal is cast on the turn of the opponent immideatly after my turn in a four player game during his first main phase.
I have 2 cards in hand after casting it.
The opponent whose turn it was cast on has three cards in hand.
The next opponent has one card in hand.
And the last opponent has 5 cards in hand. 

It's my firstdraw during that turn so nothing happens to me.
My opponents will discard their hands and mill seven cards.

Teferi's Puzzlebox for someone with two cards in hand at the beginning of the turn is one that could prove confusing if I had a Font of Mythos in play as well I think because of deciding which goes first. That one I'm not sure about... 


Read the oracle wording for CoM on gatherer. I don't think you've done that, or you missed the part about it only ignores the effect if it's the first card drawn on your draw step (which will almost always be because of the turn-based action). A Wheel and Deal will make all players discard their hand and mill 7 cards, regardless of whose turn it is or how many cards they had in their hands.

Also, Wheel and Deal wouldn't just be your first draw that turn. It will be your first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh draws that turn.

As for Font of Mythos + Puzzle Box, if you control both of those artifacts, you also control their abilities, so you choose the order in which they resolve. If you are abusing Chains, it would probably be beneficial to make them draw and discard 2 extra cards first, then make them lose their hand and mill for 2.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Wheel and Deal only hits my opponents though; if cast on one of their turns the only card that I'll draw is the mandatory one that it makes me draw so CoM wouldn't doing anything since it's my first card drawn for the turn. 
When using multiple enchantments/artifacts that cause a person to draw during the same step does the player affected get to choose which will trigger first? 
iamajellydonut: Sure thing, Wheel and Deal is cast on the turn of the opponent immideatly after my turn in a four player game during his first main phase.
I have 2 cards in hand after casting it.
The opponent whose turn it was cast on has three cards in hand.
The next opponent has one card in hand.
And the last opponent has 5 cards in hand. 

It's my firstdraw during that turn so nothing happens to me.
My opponents will discard their hands and mill seven cards.

Teferi's Puzzle Box for someone with two cards in hand at the beginning of the turn is one that could prove confusing if I had a Font of Mythos in play as well I think because of deciding which goes first. That one I'm not sure about...




Since you are drwing a card and it's not during your draw step, you would discard a card and draw a card.
Wheel and Deal only hits my opponents though; if cast on one of their turns the only card that I'll draw is the mandatory one that it makes me draw so CoM wouldn't doing anything since it's my first card drawn for the turn.


Oops, I thought you said Wheel of Fortune. You're right. Also, you can get around Chains hitting you by casting Wheel and Deal during your opponent's draw step (not their main phase). Then, the mandatory draw will be the first card you drew during a draw step, and chains will ignore you. I really want to stress this, because I think you're missing it. Chains of Mephistopholes only ignores you if it's the first card you drew during a draw step, not the first card you draw during a turn.

When using multiple enchantments/artifacts that cause a person to draw during the same step does the player affected get to choose which will trigger first?


No, the player who controls the ability chooses their order. Most of the time, the player who controls the ability is the person who controls that artifact/enchantment. 

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Surprised missed the draw step part. DEFINITELY getting a highlighter for the print out as well so I won't miss parts like that in the future
Ok, so with the example of Teferi's Puzzle Box and Font Of Mythos in play I'd want to have the Box go first to empty their hand which would force milling and then the Font I take it in order to get the greatest bang for my buck?
I do appreciate you guys spending the time on explaining this one because I have a feeling not only would my opponents hate me for playing it but I'd likely hate myself as well! lol 

So (hopefully) to simplify:
It's a replacement causing a discard if it's a card drawn after the first during any draw step.
If there are no cards in hand then it will mill instead
With multiple artifacts/enchantments that I control forces someone to draw multiple cards I get to decide which will trigger first
Also, you can get around Chains hitting you by casting Wheel and Deal during your opponent's draw step (not their main phase). Then, the mandatory draw will be the first card you drew during a draw step, and chains will ignore you. I really want to stress this, because I think you're missing it. Chains of Mephistopholes only ignores you if it's the first card you drew during a draw step, not the first card you draw during a turn.


This is incorrect. Chains very clearly states "his or her draw step". It must be your draw step in order to ignore the first draw.

Ok, so with the example of Teferi's Puzzle Box and Font Of Mythos in play I'd want to have the Box go first to empty their hand which would force milling and then the Font I take it in order to get the greatest bang for my buck?


That is correct.

So (hopefully) to simplify:
It's a replacement causing a discard if it's a card drawn after the first during any draw step.
If there are no cards in hand then it will mill instead
With multiple artifacts/enchantments that I control forces someone to draw multiple cards I get to decide which will trigger first


This is also correct. If two abilities that you control would simultaneously trigger ("at the beginning of your upkeep...", you choose which is put on the stack in order.


p.s. I am in the middle of typing up a concence post for you to carry around of all the listed examples and their correct manner of play. Rather than just have a jumble of a thread. 
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
iamajellydonut: Thank you! That will definitely be easier than copy/pasting that I planned :D I haven't decided on all the cards that will be in the deck but I think they'll likely just be variations of force drawing and hand manipulation cards so hopefully this will all cover the possible interactions.

Chains of Mephistopheles and Howling Mine are on the battlefield together. Player A has one card in hand. In order... Player A would draw a card for their first each turn, the Howling Mine would require the player to discard a card, then the player would draw a card.

For an end result of two cards in hand and one card discarded.


Chains of Mephistopheles and Font of Mythos are on the battlefield together. Player A has zero cards in hand. In order... Player A would draw a card for their first each turn, then the Font of Mythos would require the player to discard a card (their only card), draw a card, discard a card (their only card), then the draw a card.

For an end result of one card in hand and two cards discarded.


Chains of Mephistopheles is on the battlefield. Wheel of Fortune is cast. In order... Each player would discard all of the cards in their hands. Then, since no player has any cards to fulfill the discard requirement, each player would mill seven cards instead.

For an end result of seven cards milled and the entire hand discarded.


Chains of Mephistopheles is on the battlefield. Player A has two cards in hand. Players B-D have a varying amount of cards in their hand. During Player B's precombat main phase, Player A casts Wheel and Deal.  In order... Players B-D would discard all of the cards in their hands. Then, since Players B-D do not have any cards to fulfill the discard requirement, they would each mill seven cards instead. Finally, Player A discards a card then draws a card.

For an end result of Players B-D having zero cards in hand and milled seven, and Player A having one card in hand and one card discarded and one card having been cast.

lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
p.s. I would like to clarify once again that ignoring Chains of Mephistopheles occurs only during each player's personal draw step. Attempting to draw a card during an opponent's draw step will force you to first discard a card.

p.p.s. Forget, Cephalid Broker, and Cephalid Looter are great. 
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Thank you again to everyone that posted to help me gain a better understanding of a card that will likely cause my playgroup to ban it after three games(but they should be fun games!) I appreciate it greatly Smile
That's a great type up jelly, but I've got to nitpick case 4.  Player A will have 1 card in hand.
(Begins with 2)
Casts W&D (1)
Discard (0)
Draw(1) 
That's a great type up jelly, but I've got to nitpick case 4.  Player A will have 1 card in hand.
(Begins with 2)
Casts W&D (1)
Discard (0)
Draw(1) 


Ah, you are correct.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO