CDA & 6 v 7

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"Comp. Rules: 208.2. Some creature cards have power and/or toughness represented by a * instead of a number. The object has a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. This ability functions everywhere, even outside the game. If the ability needs to use a number that can't be determined, use 0 instead of that number."

"A Local Judge: If you remove all abilities and it has a characteristic defining ability for power and toughness, that ability will be removed before it has a chance to be applied and the creature's power and toughness will be undefinied-- which we don't allow for creatures on the battlefield."

"International Magic Judges Wiki: With Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield, a Tarmogoyf in the graveyard will be 0/1."

"Ken Nagle: Losing all abilities is a notoriously fuzzy part of the rules to be doing it repeatedly on an uncommon. Did you know ... making a huge Tarmogoyf lose all abilities results in ... still a huge Tarmogoyf? That's because characteristic-defining abilities aren't actually granting abilities!"



What exactly is correct? What is Tarmogoyf's power and toughness if it loses all abilities? Can you provide rules which show exactly what happens? I'm assuming that its power and toughness are not indeterminate.

Rules Advisor


I primarily play EDH a lot, but I have also been known to play every other format under the sun.

 


 

My decks as of May 2014:
Hokori, Dust Drinker Prison EDH

Geist of Saint Traft Spirits and Auras EDH

Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed Storm Combo EDH

Damia, Sage of Stone Dredge EDH

UBR Goodies 60-Card Casual

 

Retired:

 

Five-Color Slivers 60-Card Casual

Mono-Green Elf Tribal 60-Card Casual

UR Dragonstorm 60-Card Casual

Esper Artifacts 60-Card Casual

Mono-U Tempo Legacy

GU Land Destruction Standard

Wrexial, the Risen Deep Derpy Control EDH

Heartless Hidetsugu/Zo-Zu, the Punisher/Shimatsu the Bloodsoaked Mass Land Destruction EDH

Hazezon Tamar Naya Synergies EDH

Melek, Izzet Paragon Storm/Chaos EDH

Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Discard EDH

Child of Alara Ally Tribal EDH

Gaddock Teeg Aggro Duel Commander

Urabrask the Hidden Pingers EDH

Tetsuo Umezawa Derpy Control EDH

Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge Derpy Control EDH

Oloro, Ageless Ascetic/Sen Triplets Stealing Control EDH

a Tarmogoyf that loses all abilities is 0/1
not sure why Ken Nagle disagrees
proud member of the 2011 community team
Its power is a number that can't be determined which therefore defaults to zero. Its toughness is (a number that can't be determined which therefore defaults to zero) plus one. It is 0/1.

Ken, as far as I can see, is just plain wrong, and the scrap of justification he gives in your quote isn't relevant or even coherent (EDIT: actually, as I point out later, it is meaningful and relevant - it's part of the explanation of why he's wrong!). Where did he say this?
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Its power is a number that can't be determined which therefore defaults to zero. Its toughness is (a number that can't be determined which therefore defaults to zero) plus one. It is 0/1.

Ken, as far as I can see, is just plain wrong, and the scrap of justification he gives in your quote isn't relevant or even coherent. Where did he say this?



Great designer search 2.

Rules Advisor


I primarily play EDH a lot, but I have also been known to play every other format under the sun.

 


 

My decks as of May 2014:
Hokori, Dust Drinker Prison EDH

Geist of Saint Traft Spirits and Auras EDH

Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed Storm Combo EDH

Damia, Sage of Stone Dredge EDH

UBR Goodies 60-Card Casual

 

Retired:

 

Five-Color Slivers 60-Card Casual

Mono-Green Elf Tribal 60-Card Casual

UR Dragonstorm 60-Card Casual

Esper Artifacts 60-Card Casual

Mono-U Tempo Legacy

GU Land Destruction Standard

Wrexial, the Risen Deep Derpy Control EDH

Heartless Hidetsugu/Zo-Zu, the Punisher/Shimatsu the Bloodsoaked Mass Land Destruction EDH

Hazezon Tamar Naya Synergies EDH

Melek, Izzet Paragon Storm/Chaos EDH

Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Discard EDH

Child of Alara Ally Tribal EDH

Gaddock Teeg Aggro Duel Commander

Urabrask the Hidden Pingers EDH

Tetsuo Umezawa Derpy Control EDH

Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge Derpy Control EDH

Oloro, Ageless Ascetic/Sen Triplets Stealing Control EDH

613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

613.2. Within layers 1-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)

604.3. Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object's characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box). Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game.

604.3a. A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria:
(1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness;
(2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect;
(3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects;
(4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and
(5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.

604.3a 1): Tarmogoyfs ability defines its P/T, so yes.
2) Yes.
3) - 5) all yes

Additionally, see the Jailers ruling:

5/1/2007     If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.

This is what made Ken think he is correct. However:

Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.

So teh ability is removed in Layer 6, and can not apply in Layer 7.
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
but P/T is in 7, abilities are removed in 6

Mistform Ultimus is different because types are set in 4, so that is before his ability is removed.
proud member of the 2011 community team
613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

613.2. Within layers 1-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
604.3. Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object's characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box). Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game.

604.3a. A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria:
(1) It defines an object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness;
(2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect;
(3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects;
(4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and
(5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.

604.3a 1): Tarmogoyfs ability defines its P/T, so yes.
2) Yes.
3) - 5) all yes

I dunno what you guys are talking about, but Ken is correct.

Additionally, see the Jailers ruling:

5/1/2007     If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.

Again, when an Ability has already been applied, it does not matter if it gets removed later.


You seem to have missed the very important text before the first text you bolded: Within layers 1-6. This means on a per-layer basis.

The reason the ultimus/jailer interaction works the way it does is that creature type is in layer 4, while ability removing is in layer 6. The ability that sets the type applies before it disappears. As Tarmogoyf's ability is a CDA that affect P/T, it's applied in 7a, which is too late, because it's gone by that point. 

613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.




All Generalizations are Bad
Why would the 'Goyf's ability be applied in layer 6, as you (DocDoom) seem to be claiming? As Ken himself points out, it is not granting an ability to the 'Goyf (and in any case, would no longer be characteristic-defining if it did), so I see no reason why it would apply anywhere else but layer 7.

No-one is denying that it's characteristic-defining, but that just puts it in the first sublayer of layer 7. It doesn't put it before all non-characteristic-defining abilities, or anything like that.


EDIT: This post, like the two above it, was a response to the pre-edit version of DocDoom's post as quoted by RootBreaker, not the version that now stands.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
So the ability is removed in Layer 6, and can not apply in Layer 7.



Which means that since there's no defined value for the *'s, Tarmogoyf would be a 0/1.

Rules Advisor


I primarily play EDH a lot, but I have also been known to play every other format under the sun.

 


 

My decks as of May 2014:
Hokori, Dust Drinker Prison EDH

Geist of Saint Traft Spirits and Auras EDH

Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed Storm Combo EDH

Damia, Sage of Stone Dredge EDH

UBR Goodies 60-Card Casual

 

Retired:

 

Five-Color Slivers 60-Card Casual

Mono-Green Elf Tribal 60-Card Casual

UR Dragonstorm 60-Card Casual

Esper Artifacts 60-Card Casual

Mono-U Tempo Legacy

GU Land Destruction Standard

Wrexial, the Risen Deep Derpy Control EDH

Heartless Hidetsugu/Zo-Zu, the Punisher/Shimatsu the Bloodsoaked Mass Land Destruction EDH

Hazezon Tamar Naya Synergies EDH

Melek, Izzet Paragon Storm/Chaos EDH

Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Discard EDH

Child of Alara Ally Tribal EDH

Gaddock Teeg Aggro Duel Commander

Urabrask the Hidden Pingers EDH

Tetsuo Umezawa Derpy Control EDH

Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge Derpy Control EDH

Oloro, Ageless Ascetic/Sen Triplets Stealing Control EDH

Sorry everyone, I posted a fiurst Version that I edited later after reading a bit more rules. Sorry about the confusion.
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
Anyone care to explain why it's 0/1 instead of 0/0?  It seems to me that the "that number + 1" is set by the same CDA.
What is printed in the power/toughness box - which is the only thing you can go by absent the CDA - is not */*, it is */*+1. * is a number that can't be determined, so it defaults to 0; but that doesn't remove the +1 or change its meaning, and calculating it is very simple - 0+1=1.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011