The Mimeoplasm has a headache.

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I was reading around this morning, and started wondering.

I control Yixlid Jailer.

An opponent casts and resolves The Mimeoplasm. They choose the two cards to exile. The creature to copy is irrelevant, but the creature that sets the number of counters is Lord of Extinction.

How many +1/+1 counters does The Mimeoplasm enter the battlefield with? (Assume for the purposes of this calculation that there are a total of 18 cards in all graveyards at the time The Mimeoplasm starts to resolve.)
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I think this ruling applies
If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.


/edit: looking up the layers again I think this is a wrong example
ability removing effects are in layer 6, power/toughness is in layer 7

I have a headache, too
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I think this ruling applies
If Mistform Ultimus is in the graveyard, the Ultimus will lose its ability that says "Mistform Ultimus is every creature type," but it will still *be* all creature types. The way continuous effects work, Mistform Ultimus's type-changing ability is applied before Yixlid Jailer's ability removes it.


No, it does not. Sorry.

The Changeling ability applies in layer 4. The Lord's CDA sets power and toughness, and therefore applies in 7a. Adding and removing abilities is a Layer 6 effect, and therefore removes the Lord's CDA before it can be applied, unlike other CDAs that apply in any other layer..
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yeah, I just did some more digging and found that out as well.

it might very well be a 0/0 in this case, then.
well, technically a */*, but since that is not a number 0/0 will be used instead
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But Mimeoplasm ability looks at the exiled card, no? And the exiled card has it all, CDA and all... no?

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not in the case of the creature that gives the counters
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no?

no, it's a replacement effect so it looks at the gamestate immediately before the event, at which point LoE has a P/T of 0/0 (unless Yixlid Jailer has been ruled previously not to affect CDA's which the last ruling on it seems to imply that there hasn't been) and will add no counters.

In a case without Jailer, Plasm would get additional counters based on LoE still being in the yard.
eg. there are 18 cards in the yard (including LoE), LoE will be a 16/16 in exile, but Plasm gets 18 +1/+1 counters

I don't think dependency is relevant here.

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DJ Vortex

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I am not trying to challenge the ruling, I am trying to understand it and how to get at the correct result, because I would never arrive at this result.

Here is what I see:

The Mimeoplasm resolves and enters the battlefield. Theoretically the stack is empy at this point.
This is where I get confused. This is not written as a cost- Exile two cards from a graveyard:The Mimeoplasm copys one, etc. So it isn't a cost. I would think this is a choice, so the copy one card, take power and toughness of the other goes on the stack. Then Exile two cards from the battlefield goes on the stack choosing Runeclaw Bear and Lord of Extinction

Point A for future reference...

The move to exile resolves.
We are still in the stack, so no SBA occurs, so Lord of Extinction still has no abilities, and has a P/T of 0/0. (Well, */*)
The "if you do" ability on the stack resolves, and you choose to copy Runeclaw Bear and add +1/+1 from Lord of Extinction 
The stack is now empty.
SBA looks and sees that Lord of Extinction is no longer in the graveyard and restores the power/toughness of 16, but it is too late for The Mimeoplasm

At point A, if I used a counter ability to keep the cards from moving to exile, what would happen?
Is this the proper course of events?
You can't interfere with the exiling once The Mimeoplasm starts to resolve.

The Mimeoplasm is in the process of resolving (it's still on the stack), the last step is it entering the field, where its static ability changes how it enters the field.

The event is [Put the Mimeoplasm on the field] which becomes
[Put The Mimeoplasm on the field, exile creature card A, exile creature card B, The Mimeoplasm copies card A, The Mimeoplasm enters with (power of card B) +1/+1 counters] assuming they opt to do the exile.
This event is happening while cards A & B are still in the graveyard, so the power the event uses is that of the card as it exists in the yard.

It gets even sillier if there's a second The Mimeoplasm in a yard as you can create an arbitrarily large loop by just exiling The Mimeoplasm card and one other creature card repeatedly, getting an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters added.

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DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

I am not trying to challenge the ruling, I am trying to understand it and how to get at the correct result, because I would never arrive at this result.

Here is what I see:

The Mimeoplasm resolves and enters the battlefield. Theoretically the stack is empy at this point.
This is where I get confused. This is not written as a cost- Exile two cards from a graveyard:The Mimeoplasm copys one, etc. So it isn't a cost. I would think this is a choice, so the copy one card, take power and toughness of the other goes on the stack. Then Exile two cards from the battlefield goes on the stack choosing Runeclaw Bear and Lord of Extinction

Point A for future reference...

The move to exile resolves.
We are still in the stack, so no SBA occurs, so Lord of Extinction still has no abilities, and has a P/T of 0/0. (Well, */*)
The "if you do" ability on the stack resolves, and you choose to copy Runeclaw Bear and add +1/+1 from Lord of Extinction 
The stack is now empty.
SBA looks and sees that Lord of Extinction is no longer in the graveyard and restores the power/toughness of 16, but it is too late for The Mimeoplasm


At point A, if I used a counter ability to keep the cards from moving to exile, what would happen?
Is this the proper course of events?



If SBA's are not checked at Point A, then how can you cast a spell or use an ability?  SBA's are checked whenever priority would pass, and this is also when spells can be cast or abilities used.  You can't cast a spell during the resolution of another. 
Thanks. For some reason I thought that SBAs were checked only when passing priority and the stack was empty.

So The Mimeoplasm enter the battlefield with... is not a trigger, but a static ability?

I was only aware of three kinds of 'things' (for lack of a better term). Mana-abilities, which happen whenever needed and do not use the stack. Static abilities which are always true and do not use the stack. And cast/triggered spells/abilities which alawys use the stack. I read The Mimeoplasm to have a ETB triggered ability that allows exile of two cards, and the resolution of that ability was to set power and toughness.

What did I miss?
1) triggered abilities start with [When/Whenever/At] which you'll note The Mimeoplasm doesn't say.
2) if it was a triggered ability The Mimeoplam would likely be in the graveyard before the trigger even resolved (for having 0 toughness)

There are many static abilities that generate replacement effects that mod how a permanent enters the field.
Clone
Vigean Hydropon
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Diregraf Ghoul
Kismet
etc.

Typically, they do this as part of the entrance to the field to have an effect or status already in place (Iona or Clone or Ghoul or Kismet) or to keep the creature alive (Hydropon)

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DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Thanks. For some reason I thought that SBAs were checked only when passing priority and the stack was empty.

So The Mimeoplasm enter the battlefield with... is not a trigger, but a static ability?

I was only aware of three kinds of 'things' (for lack of a better term). Mana-abilities, which happen whenever needed and do not use the stack. Static abilities which are always true and do not use the stack. And cast/triggered spells/abilities which alawys use the stack. I read The Mimeoplasm to have a ETB triggered ability that allows exile of two cards, and the resolution of that ability was to set power and toughness.

What did I miss?




Just to clarify, SBA's are checked any time priority would pass--even if the stack is not empty. That is how you can respond to something being given protection or being made indestructible and have it work.
2goth explained why this example doesn't use the stack though. 


Thanks. So the key seems to be the difference between the wording :

When 'x' enters the battlefield
versus
As 'x' enters the battlefield.

The former is a trigger and the later a replacement effect?

And the replacement effect replaces entering the battlefield with 'do something more while entering the battlefield'? I assume that this replacement effect still triggers other ETB effects on other cards?
Yes, anything that starts with "at," "when," or "whenever" is a triggered ability.

The replacement effect still has the creature entering the battlefield, so the modified event will still trigger ETB abilities. 
All Generalizations are Bad
yes, correct

the replacement effect happens before it actually enters, the ETB trigger after it entered
it also doesn't matter if the replacement effect or ETB trigger is on the card itself or on another card
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