Chasing Silver: Paradox Beam

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Paradox Beam -
Instant
Paradox Beam may target permanents with hexproof as if they didn't have hexproof.
Exile target indestructible permanent or permanent with hexproof.
What happens  when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?  Let's find out.

Paradox Beam -
Sorcery
Choose a permanent with hexproof or an indestructible permanent.  Exile it.
What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?  Let's find out.

This was a tricky one to cost; this design is to appease inexperienced whiny players who can't work out more elegant answers to "unanswerable" threats without being costed competitively enough to impact competitive play.  Do y'all think is expensive enough to prevent serious play?  I'm worried at it might be worth playing in Commander and I don't want that.
I'd say spot removal that costs five-plus may as well just hit anything. Something more like this:

Obliterate
Sorcery
Choose a creature on the battlefield.
That creature and all Auras and Equipment attached to it are sacrificed.
Exile all cards sacrificed in this way instead of putting them into a graveyard.

Nothing can protect you from my wrath

p.s. I hate that my spellcheck doesn't work on this site. WHY? 

Anyway, this gets around protection, hexproof, shroud, etc.., has good amounts of flavor, and no longer feels white. Your spell feels white or white/blue (especially after the flavor text.) This feels red/black (especially after the flavor text ;) )


For most threats that you would use this against you'll have that much mana anyway. Sorcery limits it to being strictly reactionary and REALLY puts it out of reach of competitive play while still being perfectly fine for casual (where gigantic unstoppable creatures are somewhat common.)
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The Paradox Beam essentially looks like a Hate Card, designed to prevent Hexproof becoming over dominant, by someone who had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

I know it was actually a passive aggressive swipe about people worried that Hexproof might become overly dominant, but seriously you can do better. Costing it so it won't see play unless the format gets lopsided is fine.
Deliberately costing it so that it won't see play even if hexproof becomes required for 100% of competitive decks is just being whiny.

@Obliterate: Is there a need for the cards to be sacrificed prior to exiling them? I can't see one, but I might be missing something. 
I actually like Obliterate. It's very Timmy, and feels quite fun.
It really isn't passive-aggressive.  Efficiency isn't really a concern for players too inexperienced to find proper answers, so it works out.  The people who need a blunt answer will use it, and those who don't won't.
It really isn't passive-aggressive.  Efficiency isn't really a concern for players too inexperienced to find proper answers, so it works out.  The people who need a blunt answer will use it, and those who don't won't.


A blunt answer is one like Obliterate. It costs a load, but it ALWAYS (or close to) works.

Your card is deliberately designed to be unplayable. You overcost it, AND make it useless against non-hexproof non-indestructible cards. So not only is it expensive it generally won't destroy a creature when you point it at them.

And you refer to your target audience as "inexperienced whiny players".
You're designing a card to mock people; and it's resulted in you designing a REALLY BAD card. One no-one would want to play, because even those "inexperienced whiny players" can see that it's useless.  
I disagree that no one would want to play that card.  No one who's good at Magic would want to play it, but that doesn't mean no one would.  Would the people who would enjoy this card be "wrong" to think it's worth playing?  Totally.  But they enjoy it nonetheless and it makes hexproof seem less "unbeatable," making Magic seem more fair.

I'd agree that Obliterate is probably along the lines of what this should say instead.  Though the name is taken.
I disagree that no one would want to play that card.  No one who's good at Magic would want to play it, but that doesn't mean no one would.  Would the people who would enjoy this card be "wrong" to think it's worth playing?  Totally.  But they enjoy it nonetheless and it makes hexproof seem less "unbeatable," making Magic seem more fair.


No Timmy would want to play it. It doesn't feel good having your kill-card sitting in hand while a titan mashes into you, because it doesn't have Indestructible or Hexproof. A lot of them would LOVE Obliterate, but Paradox Beam? Nope.

No Johnny would want to play it, it's got no fun combos.

No Spike would want to play it. Despite it being a Hate Card: the target audience for which is deckbuilding spikes, it's unplayable, so they won't go for it.

You've invented a fourth psychographic "Whiny idiots who're so dumb they'll play a dumb stupid card". Can you see the problem here?

If you find yourself designing a card for people you detest again: Don't. It makes you look like a whiny idiot. 
How many people have designed/complained about the lack of the equivalent of Leeches?  "Destroy target planeswalker"?  None of these cards are good.  If they existed they wouldn't be worth playing (except possibly in metagames where a single planeswalker dominates).  And yet people want them.  Why?  Because some players find the game unbalanced if everything doesn't have a simple answer.  Direct answers are comforting.  At the same time, a game where the best way to deal with any threat is blatantly obvious is not a very good one.  It becomes boring and stale.  So we have two competing forces:

1.) People don't like hexproof/planeswalkers/infect/etc. having no obvious answers.
2.) Playable answers shouldn't all be obvious.

The solution?  Print it but make it overcosted.  It isn't overcosted to "punish" bad players.  It's to keep good players from having a reason to play it; I feel it'd be bad for the metagame.
I agree with Kingreaper: this is a bad card. I tried making a card along a similar theme last week: Infiltrator's Strike. With mine there is at least some nuance to it, since you can do things like use one player's Phyrexian Obliterator to cut a swathe through another player's permanents, or at least use it on suboptimal targets.
You know why they haven't printed Destroy Target Planeswalker?
Flavour reasons. Planeswalkers don't get destroyed in the fiction of the game, they leave. So a card that destroys them would annoy the flavour fans.

If they ever did print it, they'd cost it how they thought was appropriate. They wouldn't deliberately overcost it to make it unplayable.

Quite clearly you're a johnny. You want to use clever tricks to do everything.

Spikes don't. Spikes don't mind if it's clear what a card does, as long as they can be clever about when they use it. For example, a Paradox Beam costed at would appeal to spikes as they could go "How good is this in the current Metagame?" It's a skill-testing decision.

Timmy's don't. They like a nice clear card that does something big, but they generally want it to be simple and not too skill-testing (so no Paradox Beam, even properly costed)

Have you ever seen, say Grafdiggers Cage? It's an obvious solution. You know why? Because it's a hate card, a card designed to STOP the metagame from getting stale, by stopping a single deck becoming dominant. Magic isn't designed solely for Johnny's who want to use clever answers; it's designed for other people too.
Blunt answers are okay.  But not everything should have a blunt answer.  Hexproof is interesting because it requires workarounds.  I don't think that should be eliminated.  And yet some people are mad enough at hexproof to quit the game.  If all it takes is a bad card to keep someone playing, I think it'd be worth printing.
---EDIT----
Saccing put's it in black/red's domain while the exiling clause is similar to some of the red spells that say "deals X damage; exile them instead of graveyard" etc..

It's *only* to make it fit the color; otherwise i'd just read "Exile." The other bit about it is that anti-sac cards work against it; so red/black hate can still work around the card.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong post. Sorry sleet; this was to answer  the question on why to sac and then exile rather than exile.
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The color isn't really important.  I just made it red/black because I felt like that worked best.  If the effect changes, the color can change too.  It's fine.
Blunt answers are okay.  But not everything should have a blunt answer.  Hexproof is interesting because it requires workarounds.  I don't think that should be eliminated.  And yet some people are mad enough at hexproof to quit the game.  If all it takes is a bad card to keep someone playing, I think it'd be worth printing.


If they printed Paradox Beam costed as you costed it people would be annoyed, and possibly even insulted.

Because you designed it to be an insult.

You didn't design it on the basis of "let's make a card that defeats hexproof but is a little bit weak". You went whole hog "Let's make a card that defeats hexproof that only an idiot would play, because anyone who thinks hexproof might prove overpowered in the wrong circumstances is clearly an idiot"

Infiltrator's strike is a cool Johnny solution. Obliterate is a great Timmy solution. Paradox beam is a badly designed card.
I did not design it for that purpose.  I designed it to appease the players complaining about hexproof who are too inexperienced to find better answers, without being efficient enough to give more experienced players a reason to play it over things like Terminus or Geth's Verdict.  This is not something you can argue with.  My word is law on this because I was the one who designed it.
@Terminus 
I edited the post. It was supposed to tell *you* why it was sac'd-then-exiled rather than just exiled. I'd agree that it seems like an overly-elaborate way to do things but it fits the colors better. Maybe if it's just black or someting it can be just exile? Add a life cost to it maybe?

Meh.. 
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@ SleetFox:
Okay, so you didn't design the card as an insult*. Can you at least admit you designed your OP as an insult? Or was referring to people who want a hate card for Hexproof as "whiny inexperienced players" accidental? 
@Sleet
I don't see why it's insulting to you that he thinks obliterate is a better design. I think it's a bad attitude that you assume your first attempt is *perfection.* Even the real magic designers go through several iterations. In their case maybe it'd start with paradox, go to obliterate, and then go to infiltrator's strike and then maybe it'd end up sometihng more like:

Kill it dead -
Sorcery
Choose a permanent.
That permanent is sacrificed.
 
"Yes.. that IS my order."

to make it quite similar to Maelstrom pulse but *almost* strictly worse. Still out of reach for competitive play in most circumstances, but becomes sideboard worth for unpredictable threats.


My point is that in a *forum* you could potentially have a more open mind. 
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Paradox Beam -
Sorcery
Choose a permanent with hexproof or an indestructible permanent.  Exile it.
What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?  Let's find out.

I think this wording is better.  And the colors were changed accordingly.
I didn't get offended by the idea that your card could be better.  I even said it'd probably work better.
"I'd agree that Obliterate is probably along the lines of what this should say instead."

And then I went and adjusted my card using that card as reference.  That's the exact opposite of being closed-minded and taking criticism as an insult.
@ SleetFox:
Okay, so you didn't design the card as an insult*. Can you at least admit you designed your OP as an insult? Or was referring to people who want a hate card for Hexproof as "whiny inexperienced players" accidental? 

"Whiny" was too harsh a word.  But no, I wasn't calling everyone who wants a hate card for hexproof whiny and inexperienced.

Whiny players who aren't inexperienced can, frankly, deal with it.  If Wizards printed every card players, no matter how competitive, think need to exist Magic would be a terrible game.

Inexperienced players who aren't whiny are typically willing to accept hexproof as part of the game and understand that it's not as overpowered as it seems.

This card is to appease people who are both.
Paradox Beam -
Sorcery
Choose a permanent with hexproof or an indestructible permanent.  Exile it.
What happens when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object?  Let's find out.

I think this wording is better.  And the colors were changed accordingly.


The problem remains: It is a card *clearly* designed to be bad.

It's far too obviously bad to have any success at appeasing those who're worried about Hexproof being overpowered.
CMC 5, and two colours, in order to be able to use a card that can't exile anything that ISN'T indestructible or hexproof is just too obviously weak.
Who are these people who are unwilling or unable to find answers to hexproof? you must know some spectacularly awful players.

in the most recent block alone, there's really obvious hexproof solutions like barter in blood and terminus.

aside: hexproof is still a dumb-sounding word 
It's obviously bad to you because you're probably far better at this game than most people who would like this card.  Part of being a designer is realizing not everyone is you.  Some people know less than you.  Some people like different playstyles than you.
It's obviously bad to you because you're probably far better at this game than most people who would like this card.  Part of being a designer is realizing not everyone is you.  Some people know less than you.  Some people like different playstyles than you.


Yes. And that seems to be the part you're having trouble with.

You don't like blunt solutions: So you can't seem to wrap your head around the people that do.
(And BTW: Terminus=very blunt solution. Not one Timmy's are likely to like though, due to the fact it wipes their side too)

Not everyone knows the game very well: But the card you designed is SO obviously bad that anyone can see it. It's like One With Nothing except without the implicit challenge of "Make this do something cool".

You could print the Obliterate card from this thread at CMC 10 and people would still play it, because it wouldn't be too obvious that it was a bad card. It works every time (if you have 10 mana and they don't have a counterspell). Paradox Beam doesn't.
I made this card specifically because I understand some people like blunt solutions.  But not everything should be viable.

The idea is, this card is a bad thing, but some people want it.  So it was printed for more mana than it's worth so the people who really want to play with it can, but the people who don't want to deal with it don't have to bother worrying about it.

Some people enjoy indirect solutions.  So why should they be the ones who have to go out of the way to do what they want 100% of the time?  If every straightforward answer is also the most efficient one, then playing creatively is a handicap.  That's not a good idea.  Hence why this simple answer was designed to not be more efficient than anything else.

Look at Standard.  The most efficient way to get rid of some creatures is a Go For the Throat.  That's fine.  And then we have Thrun, the Last Troll who's being killed with Phantasmal Image.  That's a variety of direct and indirect.  And that's good.
@SleetFox: You don't need to make it ridiculously weak to make it suboptimal.

If you made Paradox Beam as a standard hate card, reasonably balanced but maybe a bit on the weak side, the clever solutions would remain useful, and the blunt solutions would be useful too.

You shouldn't be thinking "It's them or us". You should be thinking "How do I make it so that neither side has to play ridiculously suboptimally to play in their way". Make it weaker than the clever solutions. But don't make it useless.
There is a surprising amount of anger on this thread. And while I agree that its overcosted, its not like wizards never prints cards that are 2 or even 3 mana over cost. Embers Shot anyone?
My first post had me wondering if 4 was too cheap.  I was asking for input on mana cost.  I believed 5 was the best mana cost but I was looking for other peoples' opinions.

But I don't want the blunt solution to be useful.  And Wizards doesn't either, or else they would have printed an efficient version of this card.  I want it to be possible.  When I was new I thought Sphinx Ambassador was amazing because in my inexperienced metagame 7 mana wasn't prohibative.  Similarly new groups getting dominated by a guy's Buttercup would probably feel this is a good card and be happy it exists.
There is a surprising amount of anger on this thread. And while I agree that its overcosted, its not like wizards never prints cards that are 2 or even 3 mana over cost. Embers Shot anyone?


i really have to agree with Exxile72 here --- you're exhibiting this bizarre contempt for players who don't like hexproof, and it's remarkably unappealing, SleetFox

your recurrent argument that novice players should be punished with poor design is flat out unsupportable

you like hexproof -- not everyone does -- there are obvious flaws in it

designing a horribly overcosted and useless hexproof-specific-removal as a ***k-you! to what you consider novice players is crude at best, and boarding on reprehensible
It's not a punishment; they always have the option to not play this.  I never once even argued that they need to be punished.  The argument is also not that hexproof is good.  It's that I think an answer this hamfisted is a bad way to deal with hexproof, but at the same time is in demand among some types of players.  This is a compromise because it allows hexproof to not be "invincible" while still demanding competitive players to come up with roundabout solutions like they already have to.

If you print an overcosted answer, low-skill players get the option.  If you print an efficient answer, low-skill players get the option and competitive players are forced to deal with it.  Overcosting avoids that.
I was mostly talking about people attacking Sleetfox. You are acting like his card design was:

Huge Jerk
Sorcery
Exile any one creature with Hexproof or indestructible. It's controller punches you in the face.

It's a card. You can hate it, you can hate its reason for being, but you can be concise intead of just angrily saying how terrible it is. Watch:

I don't like this card because I think it tells people that every threat has a direct answer and it doesn't teach new players to look for creative solutions, which ends up making them worse players players in the long run. Finally, printing this card would take up a card in a set that could please a wider demographic.

I don't think that was paticularly disparaging, was it? :/
Now that I think about it, it kind of is like Hornet Sting (which never should have been made): it does something that shouldn't be done, but it's impractically weak so it discourages serious use.  On the other hand, you don't have players crying foul at green's lack of burn like you do "answers" to hexproof.  So I dunno, really.
Sometimes stuff is supposed to be hard to answer. That's what makes magic interesting, imo.
Sometimes stuff is supposed to be hard to answer. That's what makes magic interesting, imo.

That's the reason behind me making the card overcosted.
I was never a fan of shroud or hexproof with evasion (Maro has admitted that this is not a great idea). That's what makes them dangerous really because otherwise it's still a normal creature, you can still block it and the game goes on. What I don't like is cards that are basically timers you can't turn off (unless that's the point a la battle of wits), like ]Buttercup. I think finding creative ways to get around hexproof is great, but there are plenty of brute force hexproof haters in existance already. For your consideration I submit the original way around protection (though not in Alpha): wrath of god.

I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, Sir, because I'm not myself you see. -Alice

Sleetfox I think you're getting trolled. Just back away, it's the only thing that works.
Maybe everyone's just mad. In that case walking away is usually still the best option.


It's a card. You can hate it, you can hate its reason for being, but you can be concise intead of just angrily saying how terrible it is.


I dislike Paradox Beam because it is an overly simplistic design with bad flavour. The design is too transparent: SleetFox was making a card that answers Indestructible and Hexproof, so he made a card that answers Indestructible and Hexproof, and does nothing else. The flavour is deliberately nonsensical so all we're left with is an unsubtle, narrow, bottom-up card.
Well, if you really want to make it paradoxical...

Paradox Wave
Sorcery
Destroy all indestructible permanents and any number of target permanents with Hexproof or Shroud.  Paradox Wave deals 13 damage to each creature with protection from Red.

There's probably a way to use this, but I'll be damned if I can figure it out.
That card is hilarious.  And while it does nothing it can legitimately work.
It's a card. You can hate it, you can hate its reason for being, but you can be concise intead of just angrily saying how terrible it is.


I dislike Paradox Beam because it is an overly simplistic design with bad flavour. The design is too transparent: SleetFox was making a card that answers Indestructible and Hexproof, so he made a card that answers Indestructible and Hexproof, and does nothing else. The flavour is deliberately nonsensical so all we're left with is an unsubtle, narrow, bottom-up card.

Sometimes they print bottom-up cards with nonsense flavor.
It's also worth noting that:
If you put this at uncommon or common, the effect and cost are gigantic; for a card people generally won't use and is unintuitive to new players (as the choose a permanent thing is a bit different than "target" but they won't understand this.)

If you put it at Rare; well... you wouldn't be happy pulling this as your rare slot would you? :P

If you put it at Mythic... people will quit the game ;)


This is why something like Obliterate just makes more sense; you put it in a rare slot and Timmys and (depending on the meta) Spikes *might* even find uses for it. At Rare it doesn't annoy people too much (they won't get 7 of these...) and it leaves it is sufficiently fun. The prospect of Card advantage allows mid-level players or Johnny's hopes for utilizing it "correctly."

I want to be clear that this isn't bashing the card, it just seems *really* impracticle. Maybe..

Paradox Beam  
Sorcery - Uncommon
As you cast ~, choose a creature on the battlefield with Hexproof, Shroud, or Indestructible. Exile it.
If we cannot ignore what confounds us, we'll simply get rid of it alltogether.

-Sorcery speed make it less viable
-low cost means it's playable
-the specificity gets what you're going for
-it's not delibrately terrible 
-it's not very splashable
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I actually thought about the rarity concern.  I dunno what I'd do about that.  It might make it entirely unprintable as is, really.

And I don't like the idea behind Obliterate because it's pretty much an unstoppable spot removal spell with complete flexibility.