Paldin not acting the part?!

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So last Thursday's game, we're SILL in the middle of raiding an ancient Dwarven ruin, trying to root out the Necromancer who has taken residence here....when we come into a room with 6 alcoves barred off permanently (no doors in the bars into the alcoves, like a perma-jail) with 6 sarcophagi, one in each alcove.  Now, we've been killing undead left and right, and we even found the portal to hell that's spawning the beasties, however we havn't found the necromancer yet, so there's still active undead.  Our Paladin2/Magus2 decides he's such a zealot that he JUMPS INTO THE HELL PIT, ETERNALLY SPAWNING UNDEAD OF ALL TYPES, AND BEGINS TO SLAY ANY UNDEAD THAT RISE UNTIL WE ARE ABLE TO SHUT DOWN THE PORTAL!!!!!!  Keep that in mind, he WILLINGLY jumped into a hell pit to "slay the vile undead" out of a sense of dudty to kill them all, and in reckless abandon to boot!

Im playing a Rogue4, along with a buddy of mine who's leaving soon who's playing a Rogue5, whom I'll be taking the place of as party Rogue when he leaves for boot.  I'm Chaotic Good, He's Lawfull Evil (after murdering some guards who tried to **** and murder the party cleric and token female character).  Obviously, The Paladin/Magus is Lawfull Good and is untrustworthy of the other Rogue, but will still work with him as he's currently the lesser of the evils running around right now....  I'm playing a pretty stereotypical Scottish accent, greedy,  Dwarven Rogue.  The Paladin just sees me as a talking beard at this point.

Also he doesn't acknowledge the other party members as equals, except maybe the other fighter, but he sees us only as party members.  He's very self righteous and reckless, to a fault.  I think this is due to all the testosterone in the room at our games.  We are all men, but he's the biggest of the bunch, work outs and protein shakes if you get me.  (no innuendo....just...ya.) Anyway, enough exposition.  On to the trouble.

So we enter this room with the 6 alcoves barred off by....vertical bars, with no doors or anything, just the space between the bars themselves.  Behind the bars are the sarcophagi, one in each alcove, and out of these sarcophagi rise a single, lesser, normal skeleton.  6 in total, one in each alcove.  So we tell the paladin, who has literally THROWN HIMSELF AT EVERY UNDEAD WE'VE FACED, INCLUDING BOSS UNDEAD WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY OF US, who he continues to crit-confirm, and whom continues to fail to even hit the Paladin because of bad rolls, only making his self perceived superiority worse.  Anyway.  We see these 6 normal skeletons, knowing we could all take them with no trouble, but want to get rid of them so they don't find a way out and come back to bite us in the ass, when the Paladin UTTERLY REFUSES to do anything about them.  I even caught him, in-character, at the table, in front of the DM and every player present, that he 'likes to see the undead suffer in torment and anguish".   Last I played a paladin and a party member said that in front of my face about living NPCs, I found out he was evil and slew him on the spot....just saying.

Anyway, sorry this is getting long.  I catch him in this....ruse?  Because now I'm thinking he's not a real Paladin.  I know he's dual-classed with Magus for even levels, but he still has to hold true to what a Paladin is, and my Chaotic-Good, greedy Dwarf Rogue, don't see him as a Paladin anymore.  So what happens?  We argue that he's failing as a Paladin and that he may fall from grace soon, before THE OTHER ROGUE AND I take up weapons and "RP kill" the skeletons in less than an in-game minute.  I'm calling the Paladin out now.  Both Rogues had more sense of duty, freeing these damned knights from eternal undeath, than what we thought the Paladin once had.

We took a break, and having ran out of drink, made a run to the gas station for some grub.  Along comes the other Rogue, the only other Fighter in the party at the time (we play in a large game.  At one point we had, literally, 5 fighters in the party.  Something else the Paladin doesn't like about us two Rogues, is that we don't get into melee.  Well we don't have to when all of our tanks and strike missiles are bearing down on one enemy.  The Paladin can stuff it for all I care, I don't NEED to be in combat.  I save my skills for traps.  Traps he may find himself running into by "accident" more often than not now.) anyway, so it's the other Rogue, the fighter and even the DM join me for a much needed break.  Needless to say, we took our time to ponder the Paladin's actions.  The guy is cool in real life......his Paladin is just, wrong.  At least wrong in the eyes of two Rogues, a Fighter and the DM.

What say you all?  Any experience with big headed characters or players?  Any input on what action should be taken by the DM?  (we decided in the car ride back to the game that the Paladin will have a test of will and duty.  He either passes, or losses all Paladin abilities.  This wasn't the only time he's acted like this, but this was his most, "not how Paladins act" to date.  How should both Rogues react to this?  I'm playing more of a trickster, and wanted to pee in his holy water...but I don't want to die, so I never did it.  The other Rogue on the other hand is shooting for the Assassin Prestige class, and is a keeper of the balance.  If the Paladin sways too far to evil, it's been decided with the DM that the Rogue will have, at least a chance, to assassinate the Paladin.  The Rogue will most likely die, and I may have to help the rogue and die also, or just watch.  IMHO, two rogues should be able to take him, but one Rogue is suceptable to the Paladin's Smite Evil attacks.

Oh, and to make matters worse, The Paladin CONSTANTLY has detect Evil AND Detect Magic active....I'd think using those free abilities all day, every day would give him an aneurism.  Nope.  It just lets him see anything remotely magical and evil so he can steal it from the party, claim it should be used by him, then never uses it, or if it's evil, destroy it without a second's moment to argue that potions of control undead may be useful to the Rogues or Clerics in a dungeon crawl, literally crawling with undead.  our second paladin in the group (ugh) never had a magic weapon.   Palamagus finds a +1 longsword, but wont give it up because it emits magic and he knows that runes on the blade spell out it's name, Bone Seeker.  It never radiated evil, just magic, and because of this, the other Paladin (who was cool about stuff) never had as much a fighting chance as "our hero".  Palamgus may get a knife in the back....he may get two.

1 )  This is not so much your problem if the paladin falls or not.  Play YOUR character.  It is not your place to play the paladin.  Just sayin...

2)  If it bothers you that the paladin is being unpaladinlike then try to concern yourself with that from an in-game, in-character perspective.

3)  If this paladin characters behaviour is actually disrupting the game then it should be the DM's place to speak with the player concerned.  Your involvement shouldn't be necessary, and in fact is likely to be counterproductive, unless the DM is unable or unwilling to deal with the issue.

4) if the DM wants alignment to actually mean something in his game and wants to have the character class of Paladin kept within the limits that a player of that class willingly accepts by choosing that class, then the DM needs to speak with the player about the topic of how paladins and characters of certain alignments are EXPECTED to behave in his campaign.  I'm willing to bet the DM has NOT had such a conversation with anyone yet along those lines.

5)  Tests of righteousness or punishments for failing to behave acceptably for a paladin should NOT be a surprise to the PLAYER of a paladin character (see the previous point about having a conversation with the player concerned).  Concerns about such a characters behavior should be understood by the player as the DM should have expressed those concerns already and reminded the player of the expected and possible consequences of it.

6)  For a supposedly Chaotic Good character yours seems to be VERY interested in participating in ASSASINATING this misbehaving paladin.  The paladin shouldn't be chumming around with an EVIL character anyway and I'm curious to hear how/when/where EITHER of the paladin characters came to be in the same party with an evil rogue for any more than an adventure or two.  YOUR PC shouldn't be all THAT much more at ease with a character who is about to turn assassin using one of his own party members as practice.  My considered guess would be that the DM is responsible for allowing it in the first place and the present situation only serves to prove WHY it is supposed to NOT HAPPEN.  BOTH paladin PC's, however, have secondary shoulders to lay blame upon for perpetuating the situation themselves.

7)  As a rule I believe DM's need to keep their noses out of how the PC's distribute the treasure they find.  However, your post suggests that either the paladin has assumed or had handed to him the authority to take what he wants for his own purposes and the rest of the party be damned.  To my thinking that is UNACCEPTABLE for characters whether they are LG or CE, paladins or assassins.   As DM, if the PLAYERS were not jumping all over the player for this sort of thing, or the PC's were not jumping all over a CHARACTER for this sort of thing I would be VERY likely to step in and put a stop to that kind of crap.  It is that kind of behavior that inevitably will result in hard feelings among players.  Look at yourself - yours is not the paladin who is gypped out of the use of a weapon that is PERFECT for the situation the party is in and you're more upset than the player being victimized.

It seems to me that your game table has some SIGNIFICANT communication issues.  Judging by the tone of your post the DM has already let the situation reach a crisis point and his game is FAST approaching the brink.  Tell your DM to get off his duff and GET THIS HANDLED.  You, meanwhile, should probably pay more attention to your own character for a variety of reasons.

Probably not what you expected to hear but I've seen WAY too many similar stories of game situations after it's all hit the fan and it's usually accompanied by advice about where/why to find another group since the one in question has just totally melted down.

Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

My 1E Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm

"Who says I can't?" "The man in the funny hat..."

1 )  This is not so much your problem if the paladin falls or not.  Play YOUR character.  It is not your place to play the paladin.  Just sayin...

2)  If it bothers you that the paladin is being unpaladinlike then try to concern yourself with that from an in-game, in-character perspective.

3)  If this paladin characters behaviour is actually disrupting the game then it should be the DM's place to speak with the player concerned.  Your involvement shouldn't be necessary, and in fact is likely to be counterproductive, unless the DM is unable or unwilling to deal with the issue.

4) if the DM wants alignment to actually mean something in his game and wants to have the character class of Paladin kept within the limits that a player of that class willingly accepts by choosing that class, then the DM needs to speak with the player about the topic of how paladins and characters of certain alignments are EXPECTED to behave in his campaign.  I'm willing to bet the DM has NOT had such a conversation with anyone yet along those lines.

5)  Tests of righteousness or punishments for failing to behave acceptably for a paladin should NOT be a surprise to the PLAYER of a paladin character (see the previous point about having a conversation with the player concerned).  Concerns about such a characters behavior should be understood by the player as the DM should have expressed those concerns already and reminded the player of the expected and possible consequences of it.

6)  For a supposedly Chaotic Good character yours seems to be VERY interested in participating in ASSASINATING this misbehaving paladin.  The paladin shouldn't be chumming around with an EVIL character anyway and I'm curious to hear how/when/where EITHER of the paladin characters came to be in the same party with an evil rogue for any more than an adventure or two.  YOUR PC shouldn't be all THAT much more at ease with a character who is about to turn assassin using one of his own party members as practice.  My considered guess would be that the DM is responsible for allowing it in the first place and the present situation only serves to prove WHY it is supposed to NOT HAPPEN.  BOTH paladin PC's, however, have secondary shoulders to lay blame upon for perpetuating the situation themselves.

7)  As a rule I believe DM's need to keep their noses out of how the PC's distribute the treasure they find.  However, your post suggests that either the paladin has assumed or had handed to him the authority to take what he wants for his own purposes and the rest of the party be damned.  To my thinking that is UNACCEPTABLE for characters whether they are LG or CE, paladins or assassins.   As DM, if the PLAYERS were not jumping all over the player for this sort of thing, or the PC's were not jumping all over a CHARACTER for this sort of thing I would be VERY likely to step in and put a stop to that kind of crap.  It is that kind of behavior that inevitably will result in hard feelings among players.  Look at yourself - yours is not the paladin who is gypped out of the use of a weapon that is PERFECT for the situation the party is in and you're more upset than the player being victimized.

It seems to me that your game table has some SIGNIFICANT communication issues.  Judging by the tone of your post the DM has already let the situation reach a crisis point and his game is FAST approaching the brink.  Tell your DM to get off his duff and GET THIS HANDLED.  You, meanwhile, should probably pay more attention to your own character for a variety of reasons.

Probably not what you expected to hear but I've seen WAY too many similar stories of game situations after it's all hit the fan and it's usually accompanied by advice about where/why to find another group since the one in question has just totally melted down.




I like your post.  Thank you for it.

1. I am playing my character, and i'm not bringing my past experience as playing a paladin into this game at all.  I am however voicing my concerns to the Paladin in question in-character, at which point the Paladin just brushes me off saying I'm being annoying.  mind you this is all in-character.  In real life we all at the party are good friends.

2. As I said in my response to #1, I am keeping this all in-game.  Again, the party will occasionally chime in, myself included, that we think the Paladin is not following what we thought were his code of honor.  He claims to be playing a Zealot.  The party and I are either having a problem with that, or thinks that even a zealot would Paladin would still have some sort of boundaries.  He's crossed them once or twice.

3.  The DM just decided to take a ride with us, I wasn't expecting him to come with at all.  He brought the situation up to us out of game to see how we thought about it in and out of game.  In-game, I hate the Paladin.  I don't trust him.  He let one of my former party members die instead of saving him. (this was a new character coming in after the player's first character died who knew my character from a scouting party sent into the ruins before the original characters got there.  He and I both had our original characters die, so our new characters, both Dwarves, knew each other from the scout party.  We joined back in with the Paladin and his party because they needed our help.  He lasted 1 encounter.  The Paladin was in the perfect spot to heal him, or even bull rush seeing as how the enemy had his foot on the character's neck and the character was deep in the negative HPs.  A bull rush would have worked, and indeed even the DM told him so.  Instead he let the new character die off because he wanted to try and crit the enemy.)  his behavior is not so much disrupting the game, more so the party dynamic.

4.  Alignment does play a factor in this campaign.  No Evil or even Neutral characters (aside from Neutral good) were allowed at the start of the game.  The Paladin's player and the DM are close friends, going as far as to even co-DM.  They both come up with enemies (mostly just stuff that would challenge the party but would inflate the Paladin's ego once he beat it because he's the only one that is able to do any sort of damage.)  Every fight we have, the Paladin goes into great detail about how his attacks look and how mighty he and his strength are.  it's almost an ego trip for him.  however he knows how the alignments and classes work.  He knows how to build and play his character as well, able to choose just the right feat trees to make him close to op compared to the rest of us.  But the DM does this as well, it's how he calculates his fights to better fit the ability of the party...or so they say.

5.  He's not playing a "Paladin level 2/Magus level 2".  in his words, he's playing a holy fighter that also uses arcane energies, all in an effort to become a better fighter.  His may be the problem.  He claims to not even be playing a Paladin/Magus and is just doing almost whatever he wants.  I know the DM has talked with him about it, they hang out almost every day they can working on the campaign together.  His test most likely wont just be a "supprise, you lost your Paladin levels!'.   The DM asked three of us about what we thought, and it's more then likely going to play out like it should, with the Paladin having to make yet another hard choice, and depending on what he does, he may be fine or something may happen.  Paladin tests always just pop up when you least expect it, it's how you judge a Paladin's ability, character and beliefs. He'll get enough warning that it's a test, and he's smart enough to see it as it happens, but with him being so reckless and a glory hound, he may fall from grace because of it.  The Paladin's test, I believe, will happen as it should, our DM is smart, but not a jerk.

6.  I'm in no way thinking about assisting the other Rogue.  It's just that the other Rogue and my character have become good friends.  We've learned to watch each others back, and even out Rogue each other for sport.  The Paladin has picked up that the other Rogue is untrustworthy, but they are all bound by a contract to work together.  The assassin-to-be started out good aligned.  The Paladin just didn't care enough for their female Cleric getting raped and murdered as much as the Rogue did.  The Rogue took up what he thought the Paladin should have done but didn't, confront the evil doers.  Unfortunately for the Rogue, he turned evil for murder, and almost brought the rest of the party with him.  Almost however, as the other party members were asleep and just woke up to a fight.  They defended themselves with no alignment change on their part. (I nor the second Paladin were there for that game)  However our DM deemed murder is enough to instantly change alignment to Evil apparently.  However, the other Paladin's player has moved away so he's not in the game anymore for obvious reasons.  He played more of a laid back Paladin, closer anyway to what a real Paladin should be played.  He didn't know the other Rogue was Evil, because he never cared to detect his alignment behind the Rogue's back.  They knew each other enough to not get in each others way while we searched the ruins.  This is still all in just one adventure.  The Paladin and Lawful Evil Rogue are only still working with each other because they are honor bound by a contract signed in blood.  Nothing demonic, just something to make sure the PCs hold up their end of the bargain.  I'm prepared for an in-party rumble once the job is done, and I know I'm going to have to take sides.  If my character trusting an Evil Rogue takes priority over a sketchy Paladin, I may just have to go Evil and be a man about it.  i've made it clear to Player and DM, my Rogue does not trust the Paladin after getting my former party member killed, where the Paladin could have saved him.  The other character was a Cleric!  Of the same Deity too I think.

7.  The DM doesn't do anything with the trasure except hand it out.  That +1 Longsword named Bone Seeker, ya, the Palamagus used it for 2 encounters trying to figure out if it was evil or not., and stowed it away for 2 more encounters.  All the while, the other Paladin, and even the party, asked Palamagus to hand it over to the other Paladin to use, as he owned no magic weapons.  The Palamagus didn't need it, he's a Magus.  He can make his own non-magical sword magic for an entire encounter, boosting it up to a +5 weapon at higher levels.  i put a stop to it on my end.  I found a Clerical staff in a room and asked my Dwarf Cleric buddy to see what it did.  I specifically didn't ask the Palamagus because I knew he'd try to take it for himself, which he basically did, although he did suggest one of the Clerics use it.  ( one being the Female Cleric who was nothing but a forgetful heal battery NPC played by the DM for support, the other being the Dwarf that came in later with my character, whom I trusted, but he was more of a combat Cleric.)  I told them I wanted the staff.  I found it.  I'm a Rogue, I can use it, and I'm a greedy Dwarf Rogue to boot.  it was a good thing I had that staff too.  Turned out to be a staff of cure light wounds at a caster level 3.  now we had 4 people who could heal, and i used the crap out of the staff.  We got into a hard fight (where the Dwarf Cleric died) and while I couldn't get into flank positioning, I ran around healing anyone I could, even tossing the staff to the other Rogue to heal himself twice a round.  (I'd heal him on my turn and toss him the staff, he'd make a Reflex save to catch it, then on his turn he'd heal himself again and toss it back.)  I healed the other Rogue, and together we both kept the two Clerics alive, for a few rounds anyway.  The Dwarf flat out died because the Palamagus neglected to save him, and the other NPC Cleric got an arm severed and pulled away to safety by the Evil Rogue.  The Palamagus even congratulated the Rogue on the teamwork.  So for a Cleric staff that would have gotten no use what-so-ever in that fight had a Cleric or the Palamagus had it, i managed to Heal, and even used the staff to hurt the super mummy we fought that killed 2 of our part members, using healing magic on it.  From 11 charges to 8.  Had anyone else had it, It would have been forgotten.  It took both Rogues to try to keep the party alive.  At that time, the other Paladin was gone and Palamagus cared only for beating an admirable foe.
Wow, there is so much stupid going on in your game that I don't even know where to begin. Although most of it can be traced directly to blatant misuse/misunderstanding of the alignment system. I mean, the formerly-good Rogue is now evil for rescuing (or trying to rescue) a woman from being raped and murdered, but the Paladin is still Lawful Good from just letting it happen without intervening?!? How the hell do you justify that? 

I have two pieces of advice for your group:

1. Get a hold of how alignment works, or better yet, ditch it altogether since it only makes for sh*tty gameplay.

2. Stand up to the guy who plays the Paladin (I mean out of character) and the DM. Tell the DM that building the adventures around one PC makes your gaming worse. Tell the Paladin that him keeping all the magical items to himself and hogging the spotlights make your gaming worse. They need to understand the consequences for the game if this behaviour continues (namely, the Paladin getting murdered by the rest of the party and the game probably blowing up due to OOC fighting).

EDIT: it seems your problem has already solved itself though. Just don't shut down the portal until the Paladin gets killed in the hellpit due to his own stupidity. Might want to talk/kick him back down for good measure when he tries to climb out of it again. Although with him and the DM being chums, the DM would probably give him some sort of out. 
Ya I think he already had an out.  The Paladin was able to get out of the hell pit.  I don't even remember if he had to roll any attack dice, I'm sure he did, or at least some sort of saving throw.  But, the DM mostly just let him "rp kill" everything.  The sad thing as well, is that everyone knows this guy hogs the spotlight in any game he's in.  It's worse when the DM is his best buddy because then it just seems like they don't care half the time, and that he can always take an easy way out.  Though I know it's mostly because the DM is one of those "I'll let it happen because I don't want to get into a fight" kind of guys.

The now Evil Rogue turning Evil because of the murder thing...  I believe this was mostly because he wants to be an assassin and needs to have and Evil Alignment for that, but it was mostly changed dude to the fact that he went out of his way kill some of the guards in their sleep without much of a fight.  The other PCs didn't change to Evil because by then they woke up to a fight and were only defending themselves.  This could have been "oh you want to be Evil to get the assassin class?  OK you're now evil", but I think it was also "you just murdered the guards that tried to do in your Cleric.  That's an evil act, so you're now evil".  I don't know how that works, I wasn't there for that game and I'm keeping to my own character about that sort of thing.

The funny thing though, and this is probably the biggest issue about Alignment not working in this game although it could be explained away, is that the Lawful Evil Rogue is liked by most of the party, except the Paladin.  He's supposedly Lawful Evil in alignment, but he still acts as though he's a good, or at least neutral aligned character.  I can actually see this working though, because Lawful Evil isn't as "evil" as neutral or chaotic, he doesn't have to go around "being" evil.  He's just a Rogue looking out for himself but has to provide for a party who he absolutely HAS to work with.  The fact that the Rogue is still Lawful means he'll still act inside most laws.  He doesn't steal much, in fact he plays a basic Rogue, no matter what edition of the game defines Rogue, he's a skill junkie, always searching for and disabling traps.

And I for one sir, like the Alignment system....when it works.  I'd rather have players knowing how their character is supposed to act rather than saying they're a "good guy" but they just murder anything they deem "evil", or "bad".  I think RIFTS rpg had alignment down perfectly.  They had a strict code of how each alignment worked, if those characters would lie or cheat, kill or even fight an unarmed foe, steal.  Things like that.  I DO NOT WANT TO TURN THIS INTO AN ALIGNMENT HATE THREAD!  but I personally believe that D&D alignemt is only a guide line, something for Paladins to detect so they know if what they are killing is truly evil or just misguided, an aura that surrounds enemies or magic so we as players know they are evil.  You can play an evil aligned character (except maybe chaotic evil, who wants the Joker in their party?) and still work with good characters.  Alignment shouldn't define your character, it should just let that player know that his character unlike most others doesn't have a problem with torturing and orc for information, or picking pockets or using necromancy against necromancy.  Alignment should be used to tell players what their character is ok with, not hold them to some mentality they have to play, and if they don't play it then they become the exact opposite of what they once where.  That's why alignment change was so relevant in past editions.  After 3.0 I feel like alignment became what itis now that a lot of people don't like.  A constrictive meaningless word and game mechanic.  Back in the day alignment mattered, now it's just another word on your character sheet.

I like the feedback.  Thanks

The problem with this game lies with the Paladin and the DM.  The Paladin is being pushy and the DM is too much of a "nice guy" DM to handle it.  I personally feel that, out of game, all the other players are doing their part well, and we'd be better off without the Paladin.  Actually I think that in and out or character.  Better off without the player though, I'm not sure, he usually gives up in a huff when things go downhill, and that means he gets pissed at the people involved but all of us at the table are friends.  He may give up in a huff, not like one or more people at  the table and go home, and that's probably be the worst of it.
So basically you're all letting yourself be terrorized by this guy who constantly needs to be in the spotlights and throws a fit if things don't go his way. Correct? Then yeah, I'd agree that you're better off without him. Or better yet, ask him to DM so he can be in the spotlights all the time. 

But if, for some reason, it's not possible to ditch him or make him DM, confront him as a group with his behaviour and the impact it has on your gaming fun. Because if you don't, you're only there to serve as background characters to this guy's main character, and I can't imagine wasting my free time on a$$holes people like that. 
We had someone similar in our online game...just without the wishy-washy dm... the party did haveta rest a bit due to the Monk(our version of the guy) tending to rush into danger without heed, yet wouldn't take feats to increase his survivability cause it'd hurt his damage potential..  Anyway.. he stumbled on a room containing some +3 short swords, and some +2/1 other gear.. 3 of the 5 +3's were handed out, one to me, one to the swordmage, and i think the monk kept one.  He then wanted to sell the last two and keep the money from the sale for himself, I didn't see anything wrong until the others pointed out he still wanted a share of the sale from the REST of the gear..  This didn't earn him points..  

Later on, we were in ruins, and discovered a ledge 20 feet above the floor below, and 20 feet below the floor above that we could reach.  Since said Monk had the ability to fly with one of his encounter powers, he flew up.  However, after he did, he wanted my Rogue to toss the bag of holding to him to carry the loot he found.  I refused because the ledge he was on, was over a pit, and that pit went down PAST the level we were on.  If that bag was missed by him, or by us on the way back down...it'd be gone, so I refused to throw it, he said to shoot it, again, no good angle, so I refused again.  The monk's response was to equip all the gear he could find, then toss the two boots he couldn't down(I managed to catch them with a dex save). then fly down and say he was keeping all that gear because we wouldn't give him the bag of holding. 

Now, at this point, my Rogue, the Monk, the Swordmage, and a Paladin were the only origonal people from the initial starting group left.  So the Pally and Swordmage start arguing with the monk about handing the gear back, as we had a dm that used 'wishlists', lists we'd put what we want to find on, and then he'd put in if it would make sence for it to be there. (No random baddy having a +3 sword of awesome when they're a caster or something like that.)

Anyway, during the arguement, the Swordmage has pulled his blade, and the Pally has her polearm ready, both threating the monk to hand over some of the gear.  This arguement was happening IC, and the player wasn't even making excuses, not even 'this is how my character is.'  My Rogue is a Crossbow Rogue, so she stealthily draws the shortsword she still has that the monk found, waiting to see if there is a need for it.  Shortly, it seems like the monk is about to run off, so I backstab him with a daily, and get a decent roll, basicly dropping him to bloodied with that first attack.  He tries to fly off(5 mins had passed so we assume short rest) and triggers AoO from me and the pally and swordmage, both me and swordmage take it, both hit, and drop him into unconciousness.

At this point, I prolly woulda just tied him up, and let him know not to do it again(IC).  However, his player rages, and leaves teamspeak, and the skype channel we talk through.  The DM asks us if we wanna let him back in(his character was still alive, just needed healing at this point) and we decide, no, he was acting like if he comes back, he's gonna try and kill us in our sleep.  So, we do tie him up, but then the other party members wander off, leaving my unaligned rogue to decide what to do with him, and so she rolls him down into the nearby pit.  Turns out if he came back, he was gonna roll up a character to, you guessed it, kill us in our sleep, or whenever our backs get turned.

Basicly, my rogue would be at this point, just waiting on yer LE rogue to join her in the backstab cause it sounds like this guy is a major jerk.  And one thing you never do with rogues is refuse to give them their fair due... It NEVER works out...
There are a couple of Alignment (and alignment-hate) threads in the D&DNext forum; you may want to peruse them for ideas.

What deity does that Paladin worship?  Have him write up a description for your group to read.  (It better be a god of loot and glory).  If the Paladin's behavior does not match his deity's description, you have the chance for a Fall From Grace.  Important note: If your DM can't/won't go through with it to the bitter end, don't even start.  I'm about to blow up your group.  Remember this advice from "If I Am The Evil Overlord": When I consider whether I should promote my lieutenant to become my trusted lieutenant, I will have a squad of sharpshooters on hand in case the answer is No.

It sounds to me like your group is headed for a fall.  You, the DM, the Paladin/magus, and the group need to talk to each other out-of-game.  If the problem player will not change, and the DM will not move beyond his friendship, you should leave this group and start a new group.  Don't TPK the party on your way out; do something heroic and self-sacrificial so the assassin/rogue can tell the world how, when it came to the crunch, the Thief was more paladin-y than the real Paladin.  Reputation, dude.

Best complements I have yet received:

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Making it up as I go along:

{BRJN} If I was writing the Tome of Lore, I would let Auppenser sleep. But I also would have him dream. In his dreaming he re-activates the innate powers of (some) mortal minds. Or his dreaming changes the nature of reality - currently very malleable thanks to Spellplague &c. Or whatever really cool flavor text and pseudo-science explanation people react positively to.

{Lord_Karsus} You know, I like that better than the explanations for the Spellplague.

 

Prepped ahead of time:

I started the thread "1001 Failed Interrogation Results" (which seems to have faded into that great electronic goodnight, alas)

{ADHadh} These are all good and make sense! I just can't come up with something that's not covered here and is not completely ridiculous.

 

My 4e characters:

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Active:

LFR Half-elf StarLock8 Gondolin Nightstar

AoA Dwarf Guardian Druid8 Narvik from House Wavir

Character Ready-to-go:

Neverwinter Dwarven Invoker / Heir of Delzoun, worships Silvanus (!) "Truenamer" - speaks Words of Creation

Concepts I'm kicking around:

"Buggy" Wizard - insect flavor on everything.  His DMPC version is going to become a Lamia.  Becauae lichdom is so cliche.

Halfling Tempest Fighter - just because nobody else is doing it

Shifter Beast-o-phile Druid - for Nentir Vale campaign


A note about having Detect Evil up 24/7, it requires concentration and time. yes a Paladin can detect that someone is evil, but this ability requires that he spend 24/7 concentrating and watching out for it. In short, it is not something he can use effectively in the midle of combat or while doing other complex actions, and it is a good way to fail simple spot checks to notice the neutral pit he is about to step into. It is not a free action to use Detect spells, he and the DM needs to read the spell description.  
Well, after a few games of the paladin/magus player being gone for vacation and with the assassin player leaving for basic training, we got the Paladin back into the game.  Everything whent smoothly when the Paladin was gone, but now that he came back, he actually ran one othe the newer players to the group off.  It's been decided that the Paladin will have one more game before he leaves the group and he and his buddy DM will be starting a new game in another location, while still keeping this game running, so he'll have a friday and a sunday game, the accounts of this paladin having happened in the sunday game.

Unfortunately for me, they have asked me to join in both games, but I really don't want to make yet another character for this DM's new game.  He has a bad habit of his games crashing and starting up anew, some times at around level 4 instead of 1, but I've been in so many of his games and had them start over that I'm really tired of playing in his games anymore.  The unfortunate part is that his new game will be on friday and the sunday game, which I'm going to be staying in, has the chance of losing steam and dieing off or just ending when another DM decides to take the table at the shop we play at.  I'm thinking this may be my last game with this DM and party for a while, at least untill I'm able to get into the mood of wanting to play pathfinder again, which may take a while.  untill then, I'm stuck running my own campaign and having that as my only D&D for the week.
I've DMed for the type of player you seem to be having issues with.  I understand and feel your frustration.

Alignment is supposed to be a tool, but it can be a restriction.

  I've seen game where alignment matters and it doesn't, the problem seems to be the player and your DM catering to this madness.


As said before by other stand by the paladin that is role-playing his character.  If the player is not going to play ball then you don't have to either.  If this player thinks he can take on all the bad guys by himself let him try.


If the DM actually lets him accomplish this then the DM is the more serious problem.  Read up on his god and bring up the purpose that his followers are required to follow.  If you can show enough fact the player isn't following his gods alignment then it might force the DM to do something.
problem is, we're playing in the DM's homebrew world with his own homebrew gods.  To make matters worse, the paladin worships the main god of the world, a god who created all other gods, so you have that superiority complex going on.  Even if we tell him we don't think he's playing right, he'll just do it and the DM basically allows it because he helped create the DM's world.  The DM even told him that he wasn't playing a correct paladin and that he did some things what would make his god look down on him, but for some reason he still belies he was right , that his god is awesome enough to not worry about the paladin because the paladin was in fact acting correctly,  and the DM never does anything about it to fix that.

The entire game is screwed over.  I don't like playing Pathfinder anymore because of this group, this player and this DM, but doing so is the only chance I have with hanging out with my friends and play D&D instead of run a game on my own.  However, the paladin is leaving that game and I have made a character that doesn't care about the human gods, he just wants to do his own thing, regardless of how the paladin acts.

The other good news is that in the second game I play in, the paladin player made a human cleric who seems to be WAY easier to get along with, but he's still preachy when it comes to whos god is better...oh his god is because it's the creator of all the gods and blah blah blah....Im playing an elven rogue in this game....and world history says the humans and elves have been at war for over one-thousand years....so I don't care about him or his false human gods.

i like not caring about other PCs.   it's just too bad this game makes me fell that way, it's the only way I can have fun in any of the games this player is in or this DM runs now.  The player in question and the DM are both my friends, one wont listen because his ego is bigger then the sun and the DM wont do anything about it because of whatever, but if it gets too out of hand or too stupid, I have no problems leaving either game and not accepting game invites again.
Well, after a few games of the paladin/magus player being gone for vacation and with the assassin player leaving for basic training, we got the Paladin back into the game.  Everything whent smoothly when the Paladin was gone, but now that he came back, he actually ran one othe the newer players to the group off. 


Details! 

*grabs popcorn*

Details:

K, so we got a new player to the game, but not a new player to D&D, so he knows how to play.  Well the new character he brought in was a Halfling summoner built around Indiana Jones, and his Eidolon is a large beast type dude he calls Tall Box.  The Halfling is a comical character, no doubt, and got into the habit of making jokes, acting silly, talking in an annoying high pitched voice (I assume that's how he thinks halflings talk) and of accusing our human fighter as being a "non-human hater", although this was only just an in-game joke, both characters were cool with it, and the joke only lasted 3 in-game days which came out to be only one quarter of the game that day. 

When the Paladin/Magus player came back, everyone knew we were going back to how things were before, with the Paladin being all big headed and full of too much testosterone.  I'm a dude, and the group is all dudes, but as a dude myself, I'm telling you that there is a limit to how much cocky, egotistical, high and mighty bull one person can take in 5 minutes.

So by half of the game we played, the halfling was being silly, something the Paladin and the Paladin's player didn't really like too much.  The Paladin and his player, both, in and out of game, told the halfling and his player to chill out and stop doing anything related to pretty much playing his character.  This angered the halfling player and instead of making it out to be a fight both in or out of game, the halfling player left for the day.  Basically the Paladin "beach weight lifter" stomped all over the halfling's sand castle.  it really felt like that now as I look back on that "fight"

So the DM asked the Paladin politely to leave the game, and the Paladin player accepted, but wouldn't you know it, he came up with how his SOOOO awesome Paladin/Magus would leave the game, by taking on a Squigoth one on one in order to fend it off from attacking the rest of the party.  This was explained in full detail about how mighty the paladin was, flexing his arms and running his ego trip, and lasted about 3 minutes as he described buildings crumbling in his wake, the skies splitting as he unleashed his full, god-like power, and that he was basically a level 4 going up against a CR15 but could take it down because he had RP rights and could describe every, brain numbing, "If I RP it well enough I'll get extra XPs from the DM", torturous second .  He leaves and we take a 5 minute break to take it all in.

My character, a chaotic-neutral half orc dragon blooded sorcerer, quite frankly, took joy in the fact that the fight, a level 4 Paladin/Magus vs a SQUIGOTH!!!!, couldn't have possibly lasted THAT long.  Maybe the buildings crumbling durring the fight was just the Squigoth smashing the Paladin to a bloody pulp over and over and over and the sky sundering open was the Paladin losing consciousness from the Squigoth's first tentacle smash and leaving his mortal body.  I hated that character soo much, and I'm glad he's gone and that in my mind, went out like a level 1 punk.

EDIT:  It's not that I hate Paladins or this player....like I said, the player is a friend, albeit one that can get on your nerves every now and then, and I love playing Paladins myself.  I just hated this character SOOOOOOOOOOO much, and hated how it was being played.
If you ever get tired of this guy's ego, direct him to this thread. Happy for you that he/his character is gone from your campaign.
Wait, a Warhammer Squiggoth? The Tarrasque-esque monstrosity.  I call grox-dung on this player and this game!
Spiteful Wizard and Voice of Reason of the House of Trolls The Silent God of the House of Trolls Unfrozen OTTer Arbiter of the House of Trolls Yes, I have many titles. Deal with it.