Ulvenwald Tracker question

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[C]Ulvenwald Tracker[/C]
Ulvenwald Tracker question  :
Hi , I have a Ulvenwald Tracker that I was playing in the pre-release yesterday. Pretty cool card but I have a few rules related questions.

The card specific rulings say :
5/1/2012 The second target may be a creature any player controls, including you.
5/1/2012 If either or both targets are illegal when Ulvenwald Tracker's ability tries to resolve, no creature will deal or be dealt damage.

OK. I get the first ruling. That makes perfect sense to me.

I'm having trouble with the second ruling. What is meant by an illegal target? Other than the obvious hexproof, shroud effects.

Specifically, I would like to know if I could have a non-flying greature "Fight" a creature with flying ?

Also, I'd like a ruling on a non-soulbound [C]Flowering Lumberknot[/C]. Can I use this creature to "Fight" even though it can't attack or block?

I guess my question boils down to a definition of "Fight".

Rules say "Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature", so I guess it's irrespective of flying or lack of ability to attack ?  I would just like clarification that I am reading the rules correctly.

Any help/advice would be great.
for example if you kill the second creature before the ability resolves it is an illegal target
or as you said hexproof, shroud, protection or similar.

Flying, First Strike or Double Strike, Summoning Sickness or being able to attack have no effect on "Fight"
proud member of the 2011 community team
I'm having trouble with the second ruling. What is meant by an illegal target? Other than the obvious hexproof, shroud effects. 

Other than giving a creature shroud/hexproof in response, as you already suggested, the most usual cause for a target to become illegal is if it stops being there, i.e. if it gets sacrificed, bounced, destroyed, or otherwise removed from the battlefield before the Tracker's ability ersolves.

Specifically, I would like to know if I could have a non-flying greature "Fight" a creature with flying ?

Also, I'd like a ruling on a non-soulbound [C]Flowering Lumberknot[/C]. Can I use this creature to "Fight" even though it can't attack or block? 

Yes, and yes.

I guess my question boils down to a definition of "Fight". 

For two creatures to "fight" simply means that those creatures deal damage equal to their power to each other. "Fighting" has absolutely nothing to do with combat as per the Magic rules, i.e. anything that would influence attacking or blocking is irrelevant. (*)

(*) Of course protection will still prevent "fighting" damage, but the Tracker can make a red creature "fight" a creature with protection from red, in which case the damage the red creature would deal is prevented.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

protection from green however will stop the fight in this case, since the creature initiating the fight is green
proud member of the 2011 community team

The Fight action is not combat, and has nothing to do with attacking or blocking. It's more akin to Spikeshot Elder's ability, but with a "recoil" from the other creature. Combat-related abilities (flying, first strike, etc) don't work or change the way Fighting works. Damage-related ones (lifelink, deathtouch, wither) will still work, though.



You listed the main case yourself: giving shroud or protection from green (the Tracker's color) to any of the two, or hexproof to your opponent's creature, means neither creature will damage the other. The other is if any of the creatures leave the battlefield. I can't think on any other way to make them illegal targets of the Tracker's ability.

[<o>]
What is meant by an illegal target? Other than the obvious hexproof, shroud effects.

protection as well
Specifically, I would like to know if I could have a non-flying greature "Fight" a creature with flying ?

yes. it says target creature, not target creature without flying

Also, I'd like a ruling on a non-soulbound [C]Flowering Lumberknot[/C]. Can I use this creature to "Fight" even though it can't attack or block?

yes, fight has nothing to do with combat 

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Great replies Guys, thanks.  Interesting point about the protection issue. Since the source is green I could not target another creature with Protection from green but I could make a red creature fight another creature with protection from red but damage dealt to the protected creature would be negated and my fighting red creature may still take damage, correct ? 

I'm also loving the mechanic of making something fight itself !!

Thanks again for the replies.

I'm away to build my deck ...... now where did I put that [C]Stuffy Doll[/C] ?
Great replies Guys, thanks.  Interesting point about the protection issue. Since the source is green I could not target another creature with Protection from green but I could make a red creature fight another creature with protection from red but damage dealt to the protected creature would be negated and my fighting red creature may still take damage, correct ? 

correct
I'm also loving the mechanic of making something fight itself !!

there was a better mechanic than fight before this set, too bad they did not use that template
Vein Drinker is awesome with infect/wither or deathtouch

proud member of the 2011 community team
there was a better mechanic than fight before this set, too bad they did not use that template
Vein Drinker is awesome with infect/wither or deathtouch



I guess they purposedfully chose the Arena / Contested Cliffs mechanic:
the concept of «fighting» is more closely represented this way,
as opposed to the Tracker / Vein Drinker mechanic which introduce some form of «first strike» when Wither of Infect are implicated.


(but I believe Deathtouch doesn't really affect things)

   

   

 

I can't think on any other way to make them illegal targets of the Tracker's ability.


Stealing Ulvenwald Tracker's first target.

If you have your Tracker target a creature, and choose your [red creature] to fight their [blue creature], and the blue creatures gets protection from red, the fight will still go through even though the red creature doesn't deal any damage to the blue one (but the blue one damages the red one). Protection stops targeting of abilities from green sources, but doesn't stop anything to do with the red creature.
(but I believe Deathtouch doesn't really affect things)

yes, that was an error on my part
forgot that SBA are not checked during resolution
proud member of the 2011 community team
So does fight count as 'Combat Damage'? i'm sure this would be relevent to some cards, but none spring to mind...
From what i have read, i would guess not - its damage, done by the creatures, but not combat damage
Correct, damage from fight doesn't count as combat damage.
So does fight count as 'Combat Damage'? i'm sure this would be relevent to some cards, but none spring to mind...
From what i have read, i would guess not - its damage, done by the creatures, but not combat damage



Fight is not combat, therefore damage from Fighting is not considered combat damage.


If you want examples, a fighting Creepy Doll would not flip-a-coin-to-destroy, and Fog doesn't prevent the fight damage.

[<o>]
You have the right to read the rules, you know...
701.10. Fight
701.10a A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature.
701.10b If a creature instructed to fight is no longer on the battlefield or is no longer a creature, no damage is dealt. If a creature is an illegal target for a resolving spell or ability that instructs it to fight, no damage is dealt.
701.10c If a creature fights itself, it deals damage equal to its power to itself twice.
701.10d The damage dealt when a creature fights isn’t combat damage.



Since this is not actually combat, Could you make an opponent's tapped creature fight one of your creatures?
Yes.

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Here's something I don't get and find very confusing:  If you attack with another creature, let's say a 2/2.  It get's blocked by a 4/4.  Can you use Ulvenwald to now make the 2/2 "fight" the 4/4 again?  So combat damage would deal 2 strikes to the 4/4.  Then the fight mechanic would deal another 2 strikes for a total of 4?
Would this result in both creatures dying?  Or is this an example of an "illegal" scenario?

Faster is better. Usually..

it will die while fighting and will not deal any combat damage

or it will die because of combat damage and can not be used for fighting


what you describe would have worked before the M10 rules changes.
proud member of the 2011 community team
You can't do that, because of how lethal damage works.  As soon as a creature has lethal damage marked on it (lethal damage is defined as an amount of damage equal to or greater than its toughness), state-based actions cause it to be destroyed and sent to the graveyard.

If you wait until combat damage has been dealt, the 2/2 is in the graveyard before you can use Ulvenwald Tracker's activated ability.

On the other hand, if you use the Tracker's ability before combat damage is dealt, the 2/2 will be destroyed and sent to the graveyard before the combat damage step. And, as you may or may not know, a creature must be on the battlefield during the combat damage step in order to deal combat damage.

Edit - Blast, beaten again.  Anyway, what Enigma says is true: what you propose would have worked back when combat damage used the stack. As it no longer does (thanks to the Magic 2010 rules changes mentioned previously), such a play is not possible.
My friend and I got into a similar argument this afternoon.  But this has to deal with the "declare blockers" step.  He blocked my 3/3 with a 1/1.  He then tapped the 1/1 and used the 1/1's ability to do 2 damage to target 3/3.  Resulting in both of us dying.  Is this True as of M10?  Or would the lethal 3 damage prevent the 1/1 from using any abilities.

He claims the declare blockers step is different.

Would my 3/3 go unblocked?  Would it kill the 1/1 and survive?  Or was he correct -- We both die?

Faster is better. Usually..

Ah, one last Ulvenwald Tracker question.  Can either / both of the targets chosen be tapped/attacking, and can that tapped/attacking action continue?  If I use my swinging 5/5 to eliminate a declared blocker, will my 5/5 swing through to the player?  essentially dealing 5 damage to the player, and 5 damage to the "fight" target (assuming the 5/5 is bigger than the other target and won't take lethal damage)

Faster is better. Usually..

The Combat Phase is comprised of 5 steps.  They are, in order:

1. Beginning of Combat Step
2. Declare Attackers Step
3. Declare Blockers Step
4. Combat Damage Step
5. End of Combat Step 

As your opponent used his 1/1 creature's activated ability during the declare blockers step, no combat damage has actually been dealt yet.  The play you've described is equally valid now as it was prior to the rules changes.

Your opponent is correct. First, the 1/1's ability deals 2 damage to your 3/3 creature, which of course isn't enough to kill it. Then, the combat damage step happens, and the creatures are each dealt enough damage to be considered lethal.

It's important to note that a blocking creature continues to block even if it's tapped for any reason. The only way to remove a blocking creature from combat is for an effect to specifically do that, or for the creature to leave the battlefield prior to the combat damage step.

Edit - I didn't see your latest post as I was finishing this up. Look at Ulvenwald Tracker's ability text. It simply says "target creature" fights another "target creature." There's no restriction of "target creature that is/isn't currently blocking or attacking", the restriction is simply "target creature." If the creature is on the battlefield and doesn't have shroud/hexproof/protection from green, it's a legal target for the Tracker's activated ability.

As for the main part of your question: a blocked attacker remains blocked for the rest of combat -- even if the blocking creature leaves the battlefield prior to the combat damage step.

And, to clarify further: if a creature(s) is already attacking or blocking, Ulvenwald Tracker's ability won't stop it from attacking/blocking, at least not directly. Of course, if either creature ends up with lethal damage as a result of the ability, those creature(s) are destroyed due to lethal damage, which obviously means they're no longer attacking/blocking (as they're now in the graveyard).

Ah, one last Ulvenwald Tracker question.  Can either / both of the targets chosen be tapped/attacking,


Yes, you can target any two creatures, tapped or not, attacking or not (as long as you control one of those).


and can that tapped/attacking action continue?


As long as the creature survives the fight, sure.


  If I use my swinging 5/5 to eliminate a declared blocker, will my 5/5 swing through to the player?


If any creature was declared as a blocker against your 5/5, your 5/5 will stay blocked and will not deal combat damage to the player, even if the blocker dies. This is true regardless of the way you kill the blocker (Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt or fight damage have the same result this; the fact it's the 5/5 itself who's dealing the fight damage is irrelevant).


  essentially dealing 5 damage to the player, and 5 damage to the "fight" target (assuming the 5/5 is bigger than the other target and won't take lethal damage)


Only if your 5/5 has trample.

[<o>]
God, I love you guys - I learn so much on the forums!

My friend and I got into another debate over Ulvenwald Tracker and Skinshifter:  If skinshifter is transformed into a 4/4 rhino, and then used to "fight" by Ulvenwald Tracker, is he a 4/4 or a 1/1?

Faster is better. Usually..

he is a 4/4
why would he be a 1/1?
proud member of the 2011 community team
I didn't know when the power and toughness check took place.  Or if targeting the card "Skinshifter" looked at the card's power and toughness, not his transformed state.

Faster is better. Usually..

power and toughness are checked on resolution of the spell.

most abilities can even check that if the creature no longer exists (Fling for example), Fight however is an exception to that since it will be countered if either creature leaves the battlefield.
proud member of the 2011 community team
I didn't know when the power and toughness check took place.  Or if targeting the card "Skinshifter" looked at the card's power and toughness, not his transformed state.



The only kind of effect that cares about Skinshifter's "basic" power/toughness (the 'printed value') are copy effects, i.e., a Clone copies what's printed on the Skinshifter card, not the temporary effect changing it.


Anything else looks at Skinshifter's current power, and this number is 4. So after it was transformed, Skinshifter is a 4/4 for all intents and purposes.

[<o>]
I'd like to ask another Ulvenwald Tracker question if I may :

If a creature has "Protection From Creatures" , can Ulvenwald Tracker still target the creature to fight ?  If so, does the creature take any damage ?

Is the damage "Creature Damage" or "Ability Damage" ?

I'm going for , yes it can be targeted and all damage will be negated as the source is a creature.  Am I right ?
protection stops DEBT

Damage
Equip/Enchant
Block
Target

so you can't target the creature, and if you somehow get them to fight the creature would not take any damage
proud member of the 2011 community team
Ulvenwald Tracker is a creature, and a creature with protection from creatures can't be the target of an ability from a creature source.  So you can't use it to force a creature with protection from creatures to fight anything.

However, you could use Ulvenwald Tracker to, for example, force a White Knight to fight a Walking Corpse.  In that case, the Corpse will die, while the Knight's protection would prevent the damage and allow it to survive.

A creature with protection from creatures:
* Can't be the target of abilities from creature sources
* Can't be blocked
* All damage from creature sources is prevented


Is the damage "Creature Damage" or "Ability Damage" ?


It's just Damage, whose source is a creature. Nothing cares if the creature is dealing damage because of an ability or otherwise.


The only "qualifier" for damage is Combat Damage, anything else cares about damage's source (is it a creature? is it black? it has lifelink, deathtouch, wither, infect? who controls it?)


The same for abilities, too. Abilities don't have color or types, but their sources do.

[<o>]
Great replies people, thanks.

I'm learning all the time on these forums !

Hello! I didn't get a chance to read much here but it is nice to get a better understanding of Ulvenwald tracker. 

 

Now... Is it possible to bypass Faith's Fetters with his ability or does it prevent it completely?

In the future, it's better to create a new thread for new questions. Also, your question is vague. An Ulvenwald Tracker enchanted by Faith's Fetters can't activate its ability because Faith's Fetters forbids that. A Faith's Fetters enchanting a creature targeted by Ulvenwald Tracker will have no effect on the Tracker's ability because fighting isn't attacking, blocking, or activating an ability.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Just to go back to the original post. If he uses Ulvenwald Tracker ability on my creature, say a Soul Warden, can I use Cloudshift or Deadeye Navigator to protect it?

Yes. When a card changes zones, it becomes a new object. Anything that was targeting it won't find it. That means the ability will be countered on resolution and nothing will be dealt damage.

Yes, because the creature that returns is a different one than that targeted by the Tracker. Also, the reason it's better to make new threads is that the answers in old threads can be outdated. That isn't true in this case, but cold be true in other cases. Also, which "original post" makes mention of what creature has Faith's Fetters on it? That was the vague part of the question.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

If someone cast Faith's Fetters on one of your creatures say lord of the pit, You could still use Ulvenwald Tracker to have him fight another creature.

So it would allow you to get some use out of a mostly worthless creature, but it wouldn't let you bypass Faith's Fetters. You still couldn't use activated abilities of any creature, or attack or block with it.