[AVR] Miracle Deck

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I was thinking about a miracle deck.  With ponder and a few looters to up the shot of drawing them, I think you could pull a control deck.  This isn't anywhere near a final list, so please be gentle.

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Ponder is actually bad with Miracles - it doesn't help you cast the ones you draw, it sometimes forces you to draw Miracles outside of the first draw of the turn.

I don't like the Looters either, because if they set up the Miracle play in your opponent's turn, they actually force you to discard a card, meaning your handsize rapidly drops to 0.
This deck needs Thought Scour, and that other instant card draw spell from M12. Visions of the Past or something like that.

(at)MrEnglish22

I would suggest [C]Noxious Revival[/C], also ponder is really good here.

Ther merfolk looter is okay, but not great, I would suggest Delver for an early fatty, and maybe [C]Djinn of Wishes[/C] for an extra chance at a miracle.
I was thinking about a miracle deck.  With ponder and a few looters to up the shot of drawing them, I think you could pull a control deck.  This isn't anywhere near a final list, so please be gentle.


I wouldn't try to build around miracles to begin with; it's not a mechanic like poison or tribal creatures that gets better the more of it you have. Miracle gets worse the more of it you have, because that increases the odds of you getting cards with it in your opening hand or as the second card you draw in a turn. Also, I don't know about a Standard miracle deck, because scrying would make miracles much, much better.

That being said, if you want to try just for the challenge of it, I'd look for instant-speed cantrips to draw one card on each of your opponent's turns. That doubles the number of potential miracles; your odds can't get better than that. Merfolk Looter and Civilized Scholar are fragile and take a turn to get started. (Consecrated Sphinx isn't fragile, but it's even slower, and you don't want to draw two cards as a time.) Things like Think Twice and Crippling Chill look better.
also ponder is really good here.



No, I just explained Ponder is bad with Miracles.dec

Delver is completely irrelevant in this strategy. 
Mr.Indigo, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about ponders and miracles. Ponder allows you to set up the miracle you're never forced to draw it. I'd rather pull a land off the ponder if it means I can use my miracle next turn.
No, ponder and miracles don't really work that well. It doesn't do anything for miracles already in your hand, and it requires that a miracle be in the top 3 of your deck AND be the one you are looking for. Blind draw doesn't help, since you don't know which miracle you're going to get, and ripping the wrong one off the top is (pretty much) a dead draw.
if you';re playing miracles you have to play ponder im sorry but these guys are wrong. You have to play ponder cause it helps lower you're chance of hitting the miracles randomly. Even if it is only three cards thats two turns where you know you won't just stumble into miracles. 
if you';re playing miracles you have to play ponder im sorry but these guys are wrong. You have to play ponder cause it helps lower you're chance of hitting the miracles randomly. Even if it is only three cards thats two turns where you know you won't just stumble into miracles.
Thanks for the comments.  I edited to try a little bit of everything suggested and I will playtest.
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I played against RG Wolves and GW Humans.  
The Consecrated Sphinx was slow and didn't have an impact really.  The deck doesn't need a draw engine.  If I was winning, it was redundant and if I was losing, I drew the miracles second every time.  
I never bothered activating the Merfolk Looter, valuing my hand over a chance for a miracle.
I never got to use Crippling Chill, so I'm leaving it at two.
Devastation Tide just made me wish it was Terminus.  I don't have the counters to stop them from just casting their team back out.
Dissipate may be too heavy with .  I had to switch to 8 plains to afford Entreat the Angels, so It used up all my each turn, not leting me cast a second spell.
Noxious Revival was amazing.  It let me sweep the board or get rid of a threat, never costing more than 2 life and 2 mana.
Ponder is definately worth it.  With all the miracles in the deck, there was only one time that I didn't see exactly one miracle.  I was able to either draw it next turn, put it off for the turn after that (great for turn one as I couldn't afford my miracles on turn two with just an island) or add it to my hand for later.
Temporal Mastery is a boss.  Three times I cast this at miracle, dropped a board sweep or bounce, and had mana to counter when their turn came back.
Think Twice was a waste.  I never got good use out of it, as my deck isn't about grinding the advantage.
Vanishment is just a crappy Banishing Stroke.  Hated it.

I didn't have enough threats, so I'm bringing in Delver of Secrets.  His strength makes me get tired of standard sometimes.
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if you';re playing miracles you have to play ponder im sorry but these guys are wrong. You have to play ponder cause it helps lower you're chance of hitting the miracles randomly. Even if it is only three cards thats two turns where you know you won't just stumble into miracles.



Let me explain it again, because lots of people don't understand how Ponder actually works badly with Miracles.


1) The problem with Miracles is that if you draw them when you either can't or don't want to play for their Miracle cost, they are dead cards in hand. Ponder does not do ANYTHING to solve this problem.

2) Running sorceries that draw cards like Ponder means you are increasing the likelihood you hit a Miracle when it's not your draw step, meaning you can't activate the Miracle. This is a risk you take every single time you shuffle and cantrip with Ponder.

3) If you Ponder and see 1 Miracle in the top three cards, you can either:
a) Make it the card you draw at the start of next turn.
b) Make it the card you draw at the start of the turn after that.

That means the only use Pondering into a single Miracle has is being able to shift the turn it Miracles by 1, and that's only assuming you want to.

If you Ponder into two Miracles, you can choose their order for next turn and the turn after, but you're forced to use them then. And if they're already in the right order, you have done nothing.

If you Ponder into three miracles, you lose 1 (because you have to draw it) and order the other two. Again, you're forced to use them.

4) In addition to point 3, if you Ponder and see any number of Miracles, you only actually gained anything from the Ponder if the order/timing of the Miracle has a discernable effect. If the game state would end up in the same or almost the same position had you not played Ponder and just drawn the Miracles anyway (as you were going to), you have gained nothing.


Now, given that Ponder carries a risk under Points 1 and 2, and carries almost no statistical gain under points 3 and 4, the expectation value of the card is negative. Ponder is therefore a BAD card to be running with Miracles.

Ponder is not Brainstorm, but everyone playing Standard Miracles.dec seems to think it is. Ponder gives you no control over when and what Miracles you activate, and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem with Miracles.

It only feels like it's useful because you're seeing cards early, but the vast majority of the time seeing them early doesn't change the way the game plays out in any significant fashion. Don't be fooled by the illusion of knowledge - you're not actually getting anything, you're just taking an empty risk.



That all being said, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to explain this, since someone playing Miracles.dec is hardly likely to be versed in the statistics and theory necessary to understand any of the above. If they were, they probably wouldn't be playing Miracles.dec in the first place. 
I understand that I'm not gaining aything, but I'm still running control.  Digging down for counters and shuffling away a bad top are extremely helpful for this kind of deck.  It may not give me much help on the surface, but it makes my turns more consistent.I like to keep one counterspell in my grip for those random cards I can't deal with by using spot removal or my sweeper.

This exercise is not to break the format, it's to explore.  I haven't seen any non-casual players trying this out, so I want to see if I can take it anywhere.  I think there may be potential that we just can't see, just like it is with any new set.
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2) Running sorceries that draw cards like Ponder means you are increasing the likelihood you hit a Miracle when it's not your draw step, meaning you can't activate the Miracle. This is a risk you take every single time you shuffle and cantrip with Ponder.



you realize you look at the cards before you draw with ponder, right?  This means there is no risk in using it unless you find 3 miracle cards (pretty unlikely).

Now if [C]Sensei's Divining Top[/C] was in standard right now, it would be amazing, but since it's not ponder is one of the best things out there.
2) Running sorceries that draw cards like Ponder means you are increasing the likelihood you hit a Miracle when it's not your draw step, meaning you can't activate the Miracle. This is a risk you take every single time you shuffle and cantrip with Ponder.



you realize you look at the cards before you draw with ponder, right?  This means there is no risk in using it unless you find 3 miracle cards (pretty unlikely).

Now if [C]Sensei's Divining Top[/C] was in standard right now, it would be amazing, but since it's not ponder is one of the best things out there.



You take the risk every time you shuffle. If you're never shuffling, what are you actually gaining by looking at the top 3 cards of your library? Unless you're going for a fast game, the order of the cards is usually irrelevant since you would have drawn into them anyway.
You're making ponder sound like a very bad card, and I'm no pro but it's pretty much been a staple of standard for the last few years. What situations do you think ponder is good in? I haven't seen many blue decks go for a fast win. The fastest I can think of off the top of my head is the polymorph decks near the end of alara's rotation. I also recall ponder being used in control decks, though I may be wrong on that one. Ponder may not be optimal, but as far as miracle decks go, I'm unaware of too many optimal alternatives. I could see miracle cards being great in legacy formats. Scry, JtMS, all sorts of nice tricks.
honestly mr. indigo you need to chill out on the insulting, just because he wants to play miracles.dec doesnt make him an idiot and the stastics are very much appreciated. and second off, have you ever played ponder in standard? cause its a hell of a lot better then you make it seem.
honestly mr. indigo you need to chill out on the insulting, just because he wants to play miracles.dec doesnt make him an idiot and the stastics are very much appreciated. and second off, have you ever played ponder in standard? cause its a hell of a lot better then you make it seem.



Yes, I have. And no it's not. You think it's better than it is because you feel like seeing what cards you're going draw before you draw them is doing something. Outside of a deck with plenty of shuffling, Delver is basically the only deck in the format that should be running Ponder because it's the only one with a short game that cares about the order of the cards they draw.

For a Miracle deck, Think Twice is just better because it gives you the opportunity to cast Miracles on your opponents turn as well as your own.

The appreciation isn't necessarily about lack of understanding - Miracle.dec is a gimmick deck, rather than a ground up strategic decision, implying the deckbuilder cares more about having fun and playing around with the gimmick rather than maximising efficiency.