On Standard, Diversity, and Creativity

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TL;DR version of the below rant: Wizard could afford to make sets more balanced. This would bring more creativity to the game as more cards (two or three times as many) became viable in Standard tournaments.

Something about my many boxes of Magic cards has been bugging me for a long, long time: The sheer quantity of them. Specifically, the sheer number of cards that I play once at Limited events and then put away forever. Not because I don't like them, but because they aren't broken enough to bring to FNM.

As a hardcore deckbuilder from the old school (I started around Revised), I refuse to net-deck. It costs me wins, sure, but I would rather win once in a while with my deck then win every other week with somebody else's.

Does anyone else remember Magic before the web? (Or at least, before the web was ubiquitous?)  Players, for the most part, came up with their own decks or built around rough archetypes (e.g. Goblins) rather than copy them card-for-card off of Top 8 Decklists (e.g., Bant Pod).  Or how about FNM? It was initally sold as a casual-oriented, new-player-friendly event aimed at recruitment, fun, and trying out deck ideas.  At my local shop, it's the most competitive event of the week. I admire the heroic newcomers who come back for more after their homegrown mill deck get its ass handed to it by Frights or Black-White Spirits.

But "If you can't beat 'em" just never worked for me, nor does it for many old-schoolers (and I know you're out there) who grew up with this game and enjoy it as a creative outlet.  Is building your deck half (or more) of the fun for you? Do you play exclusively casual with friends, not because you're a bad player, but because you're disgusted with Standard play?  Or do you refuse to give up, returning week after week with original decks, occasionally hitting the top 8 (and pissing off the Spike Drones who asked to see half of your cards when they hit the table because they forgot what they did?)

Good. My question for you, then, is: Does it really need to be this way?

Mark Rosewater wrote a column a number of years ago called "When Card Go Bad" that attempts to address the "bad cards" issue, which is synonymous with "not enough good cards". He expressly admits that most cards don't see standard play, insisting that it's necessary for the health of the game. Are you kidding me?

I can refute "When Cards Go Bad" point-by-point, and maybe I will if this thread gets any support. But for now, let's discuss: Shouldn't we be seeing more cards in standard? Is a set really just built for disposable Limited decks, from which you might put two or three cards into your "real" deck?

Chime in, fellow Johnnies. I know you're reading.
The standard environment is already quite diverse with many established archetypes and lots of stuff being viable besides it.

Or at least, let's just get that comment out of the way so it can rest in peace not knowing it entirely misses your point. I certainly agree with you on most of the points you've made; for me, the earliest jumps were the best too, and my local shop had the good fortune of being more of an after-school let's play the game we love place and didn't host that many tournaments, which definitely stimulated the casual "let's see what you've got" environment. Its heartbreaking to hear that it must have been a rare exception compared to the average sharply-pointed net-grinding tournament events. I hate strictly better, means I got no reason to get the 'worser' card to work
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I don't understand why useless or "too-niche" cards exist in such great quantity. Isn't the point for every card to have its place in a deck, for its abilities to synergize well with other cards released that could fit into the deck, and for all of these cards to be good enough to make the deck playable in even FNM? I think that of course there are going to be a few useless cards, but there should never just be filler cards in a set that are supposed to be useless. I wouldn't mind if R&D and WotC released slower, longer sets for standard, as long as the sets are of Better quality. Look at Innistrad release.

It had a ton of useful cards that fit into the many existing archetypes quite well. Dark Ascension comes along, has a few more useless junk fillers, but continues to commit to the already established block Archetypes. AVR comes in and **** all over the game plan by releasing a TON of filler, in every color. Even white got screwed over because it now has a lot of REALLY high cost cards, that, frankly, aren't all that good.

The point is that less filler more killer would be nice to have, even if it took WotC longer to produce said sets. Standard will easily survive the slower release dates, because everyone will continue to play whatever deck they feel best with, and continue to try to win. This is made infinitely easier by the fact that there wouldn't be just 6 or so good cards in an archetype, which means that the field of play would significantly diversify.

just my opinion though.
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I don't understand why useless or "too-niche" cards exist in such great quantity. Isn't the point for every card to have its place in a deck, for its abilities to synergize well with other cards released that could fit into the deck



... Yes, but many cards exist only to be played in Limited. Making each Limited environment diverse means lots of stuff sees print that won't ever be in a constructed tourney. And then there's cards whose place is in casual combo decks that also wouldn't stand a chance in an FNM, but are still lots of fun to play.

If every card was designed to be FNM-worthy, you'd turn off a lot of customers, and you'd see the same reprints over and over and over because e.g. they can't print set-mechanic-bolt and make it strong when bolt is already in standard..
 
I don't understand why useless or "too-niche" cards exist in such great quantity. Isn't the point for every card to have its place in a deck, for its abilities to synergize well with other cards released that could fit into the deck



... Yes, but many cards exist only to be played in Limited. Making each Limited environment diverse means lots of stuff sees print that won't ever be in a constructed tourney. And then there's cards whose place is in casual combo decks that also wouldn't stand a chance in an FNM, but are still lots of fun to play.

If every card was designed to be FNM-worthy, you'd turn off a lot of customers, and you'd see the same reprints over and over and over because e.g. they can't print set-mechanic-bolt and make it strong when bolt is already in standard..
 



I suppose thats true, but even so, there has to be a better solution.
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Cards need to be split from good to bad, to both teach new players what a bad card is, and to make limited evironments balanced and fun. Also the harder good cards are to get, the more money they make.
As a Johnny-Spike, I think that every card should be viable in Constructed, even the commons. Realistically, I understand that some cards have to be depowered for Limited, but crap like Defensive Stance could easily give -4/+4 and see niche play.
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Each of its nine tails is imbued with supernatural power, and it can live for a thousand years. My Standard deck: Setting Sun
108516289 wrote:
Think of how Neo couldn't beat the robots, but they kept him around anyways to defeat Agent Smith. Sure, the robots might not like having a Neo running rampant because instead of playing their favorite 4 drop fatty robot, they have to play a bunch of one mana Matrixs to contain him, but at least Neo keeps Agent Smith from reanimating an Iona on turn two.
139359831 wrote:
Are you saying I'm trying to blame my loss on something? I don't care that I lost, I care that he's a sore loser, and a cheater, and a liar.
144902215 wrote:
CKY, are you bad at anything?
144902215 wrote:
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts. I mean, In KevinWorld, Mark is reading the very words I'm typing as well. Heck, in KevinWorld maybe I am Mark.
99964981 wrote:
I'm beginning to think CKY may be anime in real life...
57150868 wrote:
Don't go anywhere CKY, I need to crash dramatically through your window and propose marriage and I don't want you throwing off my paradrop.
63588923 wrote:
[In response to a thread about how hard grading is] Upon reading this, I've found myself completely unable to operate in the world. I tried to decide what to eat for breakfast, and pondered the vast consequences of my choice. How do I balance my dietary needs against my desire to eat good-tasting food? Should I factor in how long it takes to prepare? Cereal is ready in moments, but bacon takes longer to cook. Then there is the impact on other industries. Do people in the cereal industry deserve to be employed more than people in the bacon industry? Which industry should I support? I don't even have the data regarding HOW MUCH the cereal industry benefits from me eating a bowl of cereal, or how much the bacon industry benefits from me eating a side of bacon. How can I compare two qualities I can't even quantify? And let's not forget the milk on the cereal. In addition to determining whether or not milk is healthy for me, how much that benefits the milk industry, and how much the people in the milk industry deserve my support, we have to factor in the fact that cows are put under brutal conditions in order to collect thier milk. Of course, the same goes for the pigs, and then they get killed. Of course, I really like bacon. So I need to come up with a scale that compares the value of cow happiness to pig happiness to my happiness. What trade-offs am I willing to make here? Does the fact that the pig gets put out of its misery count as a plus or a minus? Isn't bacon bad for me anyway? Deciding what to eat for breakfast (or any meal) is impossible. Help me!
104339228 wrote:
I must admit chinkeeyong, you have the most interesting character ideas; and you play them well.
144902215 wrote:
Anyway, you'd be surprised about Time Stop. When I first saw that card as a relatively new player I didn't see its full potential until I read the reminder text. Is it that unintuitive, though? Mine I mean. What is possibility? Is it possible for me to type these words with my tusks? No, because I don't have tusks. Although I am now tempted to go buy some - obviously not from poachers or whatever - and use them as typing apparatus. I could be the best secretary ever. "What's your words per minute sir?" "Well, only six, but I use these tusks to type them." "You're hired!" That was the interview. And is anyone else disappointed that "apparati" is not the plural form of apparatus? I just could strangle a dictionary, because "apparatuses" is a real word. I guess it sounds pretty cool. I'll call them my Apparatusks.
As a Johnny-Spike, I think that every card should be viable in Constructed, even the commons. Realistically, I understand that some cards have to be depowered for Limited, but crap like Defensive Stance could easily give -4/+4 and see niche play.



I love bad cards, if they didn't exist I'd quit magic.
The issue is they have to make cards for competitive Constructed, casual Constructed and Limited.  Could Wizards design a freaking amazing competitive Constructed set where a majority of the cards are playable and none are broken?  With enough testing, sure, they could.  But the problem here is Limited is going to suck because everthing will be so unbalanced.  If they focus on casual Constructed instead, and then move the mana costs up and down until every card has virtually the same competitive Constructed power level, Limited would still suck because every deck would be aggro and the complicated cards that require specific decks (which is fine in Constructed formats) would be trash and everyone would be throwing around nothing but efficiently-costed French vanillas.

Plus, bad cards allow newbies to make decks with what they have and gradually improve their decks when they get more good cards.  Not only do some players (like myself) find this fun, it also means more money for Wizards.  They are a business; we don't have to demonize them considering this money pays for the people who make this game as good as it is.
I haven't played FNM constructed since Timespiral/Lorwyn, and all I recall is my core reprints deck steamrolling the whole day through. Unless the game's got a lot dumber, I don't think netdecking is that big an issue. People are hive-minded. Buzz decks are propagated by hype, as Solar Flare gives way to Delver. It's a cycle that occurs over and over again, as fledgling deck builders give way to the paradigms that subsume their deckbuilding experience, pigeon-holing them to follow trends.

I've played since the tail-end of Legends, and it's always been fun.
Does anyone else remember Magic before the web?



You mean back when people would copy decklists out of Scrye and such? Yeah, absolutely.

I like that sets are smaller these days. Fewer junk cards, fewer repetitive cards. Some things are inevitable. Every set is going to have it's own version of cheap burn and low cost black kill. Usually with a set specific twist on it. Maybe Metalcraft, or a targeting restriction based on creature type. But smaller sets mean less useless chaff.

As for netdecking, it's inevitable in a competitive environment. Would you go to war without studying strategy? No. And it's just as foolish to play in a competitive environment without researching what is working and what is not. If you want to go Rogue Deck, hey, cool. But if you don't do the research about the competition than you are most likely wasting your time. As for the netdeckers, as the Spikes say, "A good deck with an incompetent pilot is a match-win in a fancy suit."

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I agree completely with the OP.  And I've only been playing since 5th-6th edition.

Sure, we need bad cards, but I don't think we really need so many.  People give great cards crap and then when they run rampant they get banned and everyone causes a big fuss.  Look at Jace, the Mind Sculpter for an example.  But, if there had been a couple of lower costed planeswalkers of high power in STD at the same time maybe there would have been a more diverse meta game.  If we see more than a handful of powerful cards across all colors in Magic (and colorless, when are we going to get a playable colorless planeswalker?), maybe we'd have more deck diversity and we wouldn't need bannings.  Maybe.

I also wish we had more room for combo decks in STD.  They really just don't exist anymore.  Look at Tom Van de Logt's Replenish deck from 2000.  You can't make decks like that in STD.  It's all about ramping into big dudes or "controlling" the board until you can raise dead a big fattie.  It's just boring to me that every deck has to win by turning creatures sideways.  Just once I want a mill deck that actually works!  Or anyone remember Battle of Wits decks?  Or what about build-around cards like Goblin Charbelcher?  Or Tooth and Nail?  Or Gifts Ungiven?  I'm sorry, but tapping out for a Titan is just boring, IMO.

I play mostly limited these days because standard is just boring to me.  When I don't play limited I'd rather be playing legacy formats or something interesting like EDH.  Standard, despite being the most frequently played format at my local tournaments, is just not fun.  Even our local FNM just decends into people dropping to play EDH.

Also, I just want to say that I'm still against having Super Rare as a rarity in Magic...er, I mean "Mythic". 
I'm one of those oldtimers that played before people buildt decks from the magazines because the internet wasn't that widespread then.

The thing I find lacking the most is how so many players were involved in the theoretical parts of magic.

The basic understanding of so many concepts have been boiled down into something less complex than it used to be written about when masters wrote about new topics.

Netdecking killed the "intelligent" deckbuilder, but I'm doing my best to reverse that.

And making a fool out of myself to a rather large number of people

Netdecking rules until the alternative is found!

Find the alternative and netdecking will end right there.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys.
The standard environment is already quite diverse with many established archetypes and lots of stuff being viable besides it.

Why yes, we have monoblue Delver, Blue/Red Delver, Blue/White Delver as wel as Bant Pod, Naya Pod, Undying Pod, Junk Pod, and let's not forget Black/white Tokens, White Tokens, Green/White Tokens...

I know you meant that half-jokingly but you're right--there ARE a decent number of same-ish netdecks to choose from. It's not so much a lack of diversity in the strictest sense as it is a lack of creativity in the basic sense.
I hate strictly better, means I got no reason to get the 'worser' card to work

It's especially baffling when they print Skillful Lunge in the same block as Zealous Strike. I guess since they can't go back and buff/nerf cards, they have to reprint them as better or worse versions. But I digress...
Isn't the point for every card to have its place in a deck, for its abilities to synergize well with other cards released that could fit into the deck, and for all of these cards to be good enough to make the deck playable in even FNM?

Couldn't have said it better.  I'd love for Wizards R&D to post a response to this question.




... Yes, but many cards exist only to be played in Limited. Making each Limited environment diverse means lots of stuff sees print that won't ever be in a constructed tourney. And then there's cards whose place is in casual combo decks that also wouldn't stand a chance in an FNM, but are still lots of fun to play.
If every card was designed to be FNM-worthy, you'd turn off a lot of customers, and you'd see the same reprints over and over and over because e.g. they can't print set-mechanic-bolt and make it strong when bolt is already in standard..

There is no reason why card power level can't be brought closer together (nerfing overpowered cards, buffing semi-useless ones). Then both Limited AND Standard would be more interesting. We wouldn't have to sacrifice Limited diversity to have more cards playable in Standard.

What makes a card a "casual combo" card? The "casual" part is its power level, which could be raised slightlly. The "combo" part means it needs other card to be good. If Wizards are doing it right, they can make the card interesting in both formats without breaking either.  As it stands, we have a deliberately skewed power level distribution for the sake of "discovery", "skill testing" and other horse-hockey concepts that just don't justify their cost in either money or cards.



You mean back when people would copy decklists out of Scrye and such? Yeah, absolutely.

The copying out of Magic mags was not rampant on remotely the same level as netdecking. Certainly not in the tournaments I played in or the shops I frequented. It really was a different world.

I like that sets are smaller these days. Fewer junk cards, fewer repetitive cards. Some things are inevitable. Every set is going to have it's own version of cheap burn and low cost black kill. Usually with a set specific twist on it. Maybe Metalcraft, or a targeting restriction based on creature type. But smaller sets mean less useless chaff.

My argument had nothing to do with set size. I agree, smaller sets are a good thing. But even with smaller sets there are far too many "meh" cards and far too few that see constructed play.

As for netdecking, it's inevitable in a competitive environment. Would you go to war without studying strategy? No. And it's just as foolish to play in a competitive environment without researching what is working and what is not. If you want to go Rogue Deck, hey, cool. But if you don't do the research about the competition than you are most likely wasting your time. As for the netdeckers, as the Spikes say, "A good deck with an incompetent pilot is a match-win in a fancy suit."


War analogies? Of course there's a metagame, and of course I prepare for it. And yes people will Netdeck. But it shouldn't be 95% of players. The players create the culture, and it's a culture where "rogue" is synonymous with "not copied off the Internet".  Lame.


Cards need to be split from good to bad, to both teach new players what a bad card is, and to make limited evironments balanced and fun. Also the harder good cards are to get, the more money they make.

Yes, "skill testing" is a positive of having such divergent power levels. But I would strongly argue that it's not worth the cost of all those useless cards we open in packs. It's wasteful and it narrows the Standard playing field too much.



As a Johnny-Spike, I think that every card should be viable in Constructed, even the commons. Realistically, I understand that some cards have to be depowered for Limited, but crap like Defensive Stance could easily give -4/+4 and see niche play.

Yes, or even -2/+2. There is no excuse for cards like this. I can't even see a clueless n00b using Defense Stance. Maybe someone in R&D had Homelands nostalgia.




I love bad cards, if they didn't exist I'd quit magic.

Trollololol? Even if you're serious, you're a rare breed. I doubt Wizards are printing bad cards for the lulz.



The issue is they have to make cards for competitive Constructed, casual Constructed and Limited.  Could Wizards design a freaking amazing competitive Constructed set where a majority of the cards are playable and none are broken?  With enough testing, sure, they could.  But the problem here is Limited is going to suck because everthing will be so unbalanced.  If they focus on casual Constructed instead, and then move the mana costs up and down until every card has virtually the same competitive Constructed power level, Limited would still suck because every deck would be aggro and the complicated cards that require specific decks (which is fine in Constructed formats) would be trash and everyone would be throwing around nothing but efficiently-costed French vanillas.

Plus, bad cards allow newbies to make decks with what they have and gradually improve their decks when they get more good cards.  Not only do some players (like myself) find this fun, it also means more money for Wizards.  They are a business; we don't have to demonize them considering this money pays for the people who make this game as good as it is.


Limited does NOT have to suck--don't think I'm saying "all cards should be as good as Sigardia, Host of Herons".  Of COURSE that would suck. Limited games would be over in four or five turns.  I'm talking about bringing card power level closer to the middle all around. Meaning most cards are playable in both Limited and Standard. Yes there's this sense of "leveling up" your preconstructed theme deck as you buy more powerful cards. But you can still improve the synergy of your deck by buying cards that fit it better (they could print Theme Decks with less-than-ideal synergy). Is it less exciting for the single-card market? Yes, and in your reply you definitely hit the counterargument on the head: Broken cards are sexy, and they drive sales. To have broken cards, Wizards have to make a lot of bad cards so that there aren't too many of them running around at once.

My response to this is "yes, but only at first".  Sun Titan is really, really old now. In a way they shoot their own cool cards in the foot by making them the obvious best cards, because they get played out, and very quickly at that.  It's three months between releases, but I get sick of a deck over the span of one tournament. Most people have a slightly higher tolerance for sameness, but the point stands: More equitable power level means more playable cards, and an environemnt where people play sets rather than a dozen variants built around the same money-rare card with the same broken support spells.

An entire set of cool, playable cards with tasty mechanics would be just as exciting (if nor more so) than "oh, those few cards are good, the rest suck".  I wonder whether singles are really so important to card shops' sales that Wizards feels they have to print cards that will go for twenty or thirty dollars.  But if they are selling a whole bunch of solid cards for a few dollars each, wouldn't that balance out? It certainly would make cheaper deckbuilders like myself more likely to buy singles



I haven't played FNM constructed since Timespiral/Lorwyn, and all I recall is my core reprints deck steamrolling the whole day through. Unless the game's got a lot dumber, I don't think netdecking is that big an issue. People are hive-minded. Buzz decks are propagated by hype, as Solar Flare gives way to Delver. It's a cycle that occurs over and over again, as fledgling deck builders give way to the paradigms that subsume their deckbuilding experience, pigeon-holing them to follow trends.

I've played since the tail-end of Legends, and it's always been fun.

I want to play at your shop, if net decking isn't particularly evident. My shop is a bunch of copycats. The homegrown decks tend to come from newbies who get their **** handed to them. The gameplay part of the game is pretty healthy, but the deckbuilding part has been very much dumbed-down. And true to giving the people what they want, the concentrated brokenness of the few cards plays directly into this culture.

And yes I have lots of fun with this game, that's why I still play. The point is that the environment could be better if more players valued creativity. If netdecks were frowned upon more, the culture might change. And if the culture changed, demand for broken cards would be supplanted by demand for more interesting combinations. Not likely to happen, but I can dream. And a good percent of the responses in this thread indicate that I'm not alone.

Keep on experimenting!
@netdecking: I'm kind of mixed in this argument. I'm mostly a "kitchen table" type of guy, and a Johnny/Timmy. The thing is, when I do go to FNM's, it annoys me because my homebrews built around my favorite cards, or my decks utilizing "casual cards" just kinda get stomped on. Yet, at the same time I feel that net-decking will happen regardless of what they do to the cardpool as good decks are, well, good and when people see that, they copy them. thats just what happens.

@"Crap cards" on this one, I totally agree with the OP, I have tons of cards just lying around that I can't trade, use, or get any value out of simply because they are just unplayable. I'd rather see commons such as faithless looting, or ghostfire, which provoke ideas to abuse and use them instead of crap like chosen of markov or sky ruin drake. Now, I'm not saying every card should be great, but I'd like to see more usable commons that aren't just going to sit in a card box.
Woot! Go RED! I love red! Red is awesome! Did I mention I love red?
those personality things
Suprisingly enough, in that test, I'm not red I am White/Black
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56778328 wrote:
Why did you post it here? "Hey, all you guys who play this game! I'm not gonna play it!" "Umm... Ok, dude."
I personally love "bad" cards. They enable the purchasing of cards at negligable prices and are just as playable versus one another as higher tier cards are. You get as enjoyable a playing experience with a pair of decks that cost a buck to make as you do out of a pair of 200 dollar decks, IMO.

Also, when I last played at a standard tournament, I entered two decks. We'd have done a lot better with the opportunity to fine-tune our decks, but we did awesome without netdecking. Is what I was trying to say earlier.

Chosen of Markov is above the curve. I don't get what the poster above is saying about it.
Of course I'm serious. Does this not look serious - :|
Of course I'm serious. Does this not look serious - :|



your picture screams serious so hard I'm in awe!
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The players create the culture, and it's a culture where "rogue" is synonymous with "not copied off the Internet".  Lame.


This is the nature of the human animal. Get used to it. It doesn't matter if you like it, it is the way it is, you don't get consulted. I don't get consulted. A lot of people don't get consulted. If you don't like the nature of competitive environments, too bad. Adapt or stop playing competitively. Most people don't play football professionally either, but some folks love playing the game anyway and gladly partake in a casual variant in the backyard. There's nothing wrong with that.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

I personally love "bad" cards. They enable the purchasing of cards at negligable prices and are just as playable versus one another as higher tier cards are. You get as enjoyable a playing experience with a pair of decks that cost a buck to make as you do out of a pair of 200 dollar decks, IMO.

Also, when I last played at a standard tournament, I entered two decks. We'd have done a lot better with the opportunity to fine-tune our decks, but we did awesome without netdecking. Is what I was trying to say earlier.

Chosen of Markov is above the curve. I don't get what the poster above is saying about it.

I'm not saying the're not neccessary, I just can't use them, trade them, or do anything at all with them really. As for chosen of Markov, I'm just saying that, while not neccesarily the worst, it still is a crappy card. It's a psuedo vanilla 2/2 for 3 that doesn't actually do anything unless you have another vampire on hand. In which case, you then can't attack with the other vamp for a turn, and all you get is a vanilla 4/4.
Woot! Go RED! I love red! Red is awesome! Did I mention I love red?
those personality things
Suprisingly enough, in that test, I'm not red I am White/Black
I am White/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

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quotes
56778328 wrote:
Why did you post it here? "Hey, all you guys who play this game! I'm not gonna play it!" "Umm... Ok, dude."
I just play decks i enjoy
werewolves for example. I know i won't regularily win but it's an enjoyable deck

I'm working on a post AVR deck that is a home brew. testing has shown it to be decent. I don't know how it will do, it depends on the meta

if you don't want to netdeck, you have a few options: edh-rewards creativity, play a deck you enjoy and standings be darned, play casually with friends
I'm sure there are other options but that's all i can come up with-with only one cup of coffee

----------------------- I’m going to TRANSFORM him, and unleash the savage instincts that lie hidden within… . [

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I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 

As for chosen of Markov, I'm just saying that, while not neccesarily the worst, it still is a crappy card. It's a psuedo vanilla 2/2 for 3 that doesn't actually do anything unless you have another vampire on hand. In which case, you then can't attack with the other vamp for a turn, and all you get is a vanilla 4/4.



It's a fun limited card. It nets you a 4/4 if you can spare the turn for it, easy way to transform (pun intended) being stuck on the defense into going on the offense. Hell, there's a time that I ran it with no way to transform it simply because it was human. Even in casual, I could easily see people getting silly with the Chosen and Moonmist.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

The players create the culture, and it's a culture where "rogue" is synonymous with "not copied off the Internet".  Lame.


This is the nature of the human animal. Get used to it. It doesn't matter if you like it, it is the way it is, you don't get consulted. I don't get consulted. A lot of people don't get consulted. If you don't like the nature of competitive environments, too bad. Adapt or stop playing competitively. Most people don't play football professionally either, but some folks love playing the game anyway and gladly partake in a casual variant in the backyard. There's nothing wrong with that.



This is what I'm talking about. FNM was never meant to be hypercompetitive. It was conceived as a casual-friendly constructed event for people who don't want to go to PTQs, Grand Prix, etc.  What it has become is another carbon-copy competitive event, albeit a weekly one.

Was that inevitible? Probably. Like you say, a lot of people will just play what wins because they are in it to win.  But what I'm saying is that Magic is a creative game that's at least 50% about building your deck. When that part of the game is forgotten because 90% of people copy Top8 decklists, it's unhealthy. Especially at events that are intended for casuals, not cutthroats. Reading your post, one would think any kind of organized Magic play at all is about taking what wins and the hell with playing your own stuff, because your own stuff obviously sucks so why bother?  Give me a break.

Regardless of human nature, the nature of the game could be changed so that there were lots of tournament-viable decks. Not twelve variants of Pod and Humans, but hundreds of significantly-different decks built around significantly-diferent cards. Copycatting wouldn't matter; there would be so many builds that it would become pointless to keep track, let alone ask someone "what are you running?" (answer: "My deck!"). The edge gained by copying Top8 decks would become illusory; most other decks would still be a threat, not a known few that you buit your sideboard against.

Would people still clone decks? Of course. It just wouldn't define the environment. That's what Magic could be.  And no, I was never consulted, but what the hell's the point of a forum if not for discussion? "If you don't like it, shut up, because they never asked you" isn't much of a response. It certainly doesn't negate my argument.
FNM was never meant to be hypercompetitive.



And dynamite wasn't meant to be used to take human lives. Unless you are going to (successfully) go Alfred Nobel on us, I don't see things changing. The status quo works. It isn't perfect, but it works. I'll take imperfection that works any day over idealism that doesn't.

As for your thought experiment decks, if you are fool enough to expect them to work in even a quasi-competitive environment, well, I  don't know what to tell you. Hell, my Landless Deck is fun to play, but it rarely wins. Fun to show it off, though.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

The status quo works. It isn't perfect, but it works. I'll take imperfection that works any day over idealism that doesn't.

And why, exactly, wouldn't a more level power distribution work? Why exactly do we need a skewed environment where 10% of cards see Standard play? I'm listening.

As for your thought experiment decks, if you are fool enough to expect them to work in even a quasi-competitive environment, well, I  don't know what to tell you. Hell, my Landless Deck is fun to play, but it rarely wins. Fun to show it off, though.

Right, because I was totally talking about unplayable "thought experiment" decks that run no lands. Not normal, fun decks that run cards other than Oblivion Ring and Sun Titan.
Why exactly do we need a skewed environment where 10% of cards see Standard play? I'm listening.



When everyone is special, no one is. If we didn't have bad cards than we also wouldn't have good cards. It's all relative. And to be honest, a lack of good cards would destroy the game. Sales would plummet. You may not care about that, but I do. No sales means a discontinued game.

As for the limited number of viable decks in the environment, that's as much a function of the player base as it is the designers. Competitive players are a bunch of scared little girls, afraid to try something unproven. There have been times when tournament winning decks were actually ho-hum decks at best, but they won because they aggressively answered the most popular decks that were in Standard. They took advantage of players' reluctance to try something unproven.


Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Regardless of human nature, the nature of the game could be changed so that there were lots of tournament-viable decks.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. While I think Magic can still be fun and engaging with only a handful of strong decks in the environment, I think it's even more exciting if every card in every booster pack has a chance to shine.

To everyone who's saying good cards can't exist without bad cards, I suggest that it's a misconception that good cards should exist at all. The status quo is that when you build a deck, there's a bunch of cards that are auto-includes and a bunch of cards that you should avoid like the plague. I think it's inherently more interesting if all the cards have equal power, but they have varying functions and roles that force you to think about how your deck could incorporate them.
Embrace imagination. Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos block
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Each of its nine tails is imbued with supernatural power, and it can live for a thousand years. My Standard deck: Setting Sun
108516289 wrote:
Think of how Neo couldn't beat the robots, but they kept him around anyways to defeat Agent Smith. Sure, the robots might not like having a Neo running rampant because instead of playing their favorite 4 drop fatty robot, they have to play a bunch of one mana Matrixs to contain him, but at least Neo keeps Agent Smith from reanimating an Iona on turn two.
139359831 wrote:
Are you saying I'm trying to blame my loss on something? I don't care that I lost, I care that he's a sore loser, and a cheater, and a liar.
144902215 wrote:
CKY, are you bad at anything?
144902215 wrote:
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts. I mean, In KevinWorld, Mark is reading the very words I'm typing as well. Heck, in KevinWorld maybe I am Mark.
99964981 wrote:
I'm beginning to think CKY may be anime in real life...
57150868 wrote:
Don't go anywhere CKY, I need to crash dramatically through your window and propose marriage and I don't want you throwing off my paradrop.
63588923 wrote:
[In response to a thread about how hard grading is] Upon reading this, I've found myself completely unable to operate in the world. I tried to decide what to eat for breakfast, and pondered the vast consequences of my choice. How do I balance my dietary needs against my desire to eat good-tasting food? Should I factor in how long it takes to prepare? Cereal is ready in moments, but bacon takes longer to cook. Then there is the impact on other industries. Do people in the cereal industry deserve to be employed more than people in the bacon industry? Which industry should I support? I don't even have the data regarding HOW MUCH the cereal industry benefits from me eating a bowl of cereal, or how much the bacon industry benefits from me eating a side of bacon. How can I compare two qualities I can't even quantify? And let's not forget the milk on the cereal. In addition to determining whether or not milk is healthy for me, how much that benefits the milk industry, and how much the people in the milk industry deserve my support, we have to factor in the fact that cows are put under brutal conditions in order to collect thier milk. Of course, the same goes for the pigs, and then they get killed. Of course, I really like bacon. So I need to come up with a scale that compares the value of cow happiness to pig happiness to my happiness. What trade-offs am I willing to make here? Does the fact that the pig gets put out of its misery count as a plus or a minus? Isn't bacon bad for me anyway? Deciding what to eat for breakfast (or any meal) is impossible. Help me!
104339228 wrote:
I must admit chinkeeyong, you have the most interesting character ideas; and you play them well.
144902215 wrote:
Anyway, you'd be surprised about Time Stop. When I first saw that card as a relatively new player I didn't see its full potential until I read the reminder text. Is it that unintuitive, though? Mine I mean. What is possibility? Is it possible for me to type these words with my tusks? No, because I don't have tusks. Although I am now tempted to go buy some - obviously not from poachers or whatever - and use them as typing apparatus. I could be the best secretary ever. "What's your words per minute sir?" "Well, only six, but I use these tusks to type them." "You're hired!" That was the interview. And is anyone else disappointed that "apparati" is not the plural form of apparatus? I just could strangle a dictionary, because "apparatuses" is a real word. I guess it sounds pretty cool. I'll call them my Apparatusks.
here is no reason why card power level can't be brought closer together (nerfing overpowered cards, buffing semi-useless ones). Then both Limited AND Standard would be more interesting. We wouldn't have to sacrifice Limited diversity to have more cards playable in Standard.



Not as simple as it sounds. Depending on kind of pacing they need to make the Limited environment work, some sets need a strong tap effect, and some need a weak one. The weak one won't make it to constructed - but the stronger one would unbalance the limited envrionment. Often the entire concept of tapping doesn't make sense in constructed.


What makes a card a "casual combo" card? The "casual" part is its power level, which could be raised slightlly. The "combo" part means it needs other card to be good.



Knowledge Pool. There's not a thing you can do to it to make it constructed-worthy, but it can be hilarious (and therefore fun) in casual, and the person playing it can "combo" it to his advantage.


Not as simple as it sounds. Depending on kind of pacing they need to make the Limited environment work, some sets need a strong tap effect, and some need a weak one. The weak one won't make it to constructed - but the stronger one would unbalance the limited envrionment. Often the entire concept of tapping doesn't make sense in constructed.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Gideon's Lawkeeper continuously locks down your opponent's best creature, while Blinding Beam is a double Holy Day. While they both tap creatures, their functions are completely different. You'll have to find a better example to state your case.
Embrace imagination. Lord of YMtC | Ten Rounds Contest Winner Solphos – A fan set with a 'combo matters' theme Fool's Gold – The second set of the Solphos block
More
Each of its nine tails is imbued with supernatural power, and it can live for a thousand years. My Standard deck: Setting Sun
108516289 wrote:
Think of how Neo couldn't beat the robots, but they kept him around anyways to defeat Agent Smith. Sure, the robots might not like having a Neo running rampant because instead of playing their favorite 4 drop fatty robot, they have to play a bunch of one mana Matrixs to contain him, but at least Neo keeps Agent Smith from reanimating an Iona on turn two.
139359831 wrote:
Are you saying I'm trying to blame my loss on something? I don't care that I lost, I care that he's a sore loser, and a cheater, and a liar.
144902215 wrote:
CKY, are you bad at anything?
144902215 wrote:
I really enjoy imagining this from Kevin's perspective. Because in Kevin's world, Rosewater actually reads everything he types. Mark is sitting there right now, reading this, and thinking "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled. . ." Or some such. He chuckles low, then clicks on "The Best Of KEVINSET" and says "Yes, this'll do just fine. A busty lady with banding who deals direct damage to Zones!? Why this will be the star of my next set, and no one will ever believe you Kevin." Then he closes his Macbook, so his servant may move it out of the way, while another servant puts a Fetal Richard Garfield Clone lathered in Steak Sauce in front of him. Then Mark Feasts. I mean, In KevinWorld, Mark is reading the very words I'm typing as well. Heck, in KevinWorld maybe I am Mark.
99964981 wrote:
I'm beginning to think CKY may be anime in real life...
57150868 wrote:
Don't go anywhere CKY, I need to crash dramatically through your window and propose marriage and I don't want you throwing off my paradrop.
63588923 wrote:
[In response to a thread about how hard grading is] Upon reading this, I've found myself completely unable to operate in the world. I tried to decide what to eat for breakfast, and pondered the vast consequences of my choice. How do I balance my dietary needs against my desire to eat good-tasting food? Should I factor in how long it takes to prepare? Cereal is ready in moments, but bacon takes longer to cook. Then there is the impact on other industries. Do people in the cereal industry deserve to be employed more than people in the bacon industry? Which industry should I support? I don't even have the data regarding HOW MUCH the cereal industry benefits from me eating a bowl of cereal, or how much the bacon industry benefits from me eating a side of bacon. How can I compare two qualities I can't even quantify? And let's not forget the milk on the cereal. In addition to determining whether or not milk is healthy for me, how much that benefits the milk industry, and how much the people in the milk industry deserve my support, we have to factor in the fact that cows are put under brutal conditions in order to collect thier milk. Of course, the same goes for the pigs, and then they get killed. Of course, I really like bacon. So I need to come up with a scale that compares the value of cow happiness to pig happiness to my happiness. What trade-offs am I willing to make here? Does the fact that the pig gets put out of its misery count as a plus or a minus? Isn't bacon bad for me anyway? Deciding what to eat for breakfast (or any meal) is impossible. Help me!
104339228 wrote:
I must admit chinkeeyong, you have the most interesting character ideas; and you play them well.
144902215 wrote:
Anyway, you'd be surprised about Time Stop. When I first saw that card as a relatively new player I didn't see its full potential until I read the reminder text. Is it that unintuitive, though? Mine I mean. What is possibility? Is it possible for me to type these words with my tusks? No, because I don't have tusks. Although I am now tempted to go buy some - obviously not from poachers or whatever - and use them as typing apparatus. I could be the best secretary ever. "What's your words per minute sir?" "Well, only six, but I use these tusks to type them." "You're hired!" That was the interview. And is anyone else disappointed that "apparati" is not the plural form of apparatus? I just could strangle a dictionary, because "apparatuses" is a real word. I guess it sounds pretty cool. I'll call them my Apparatusks.
Not as simple as it sounds. Depending on kind of pacing they need to make the Limited environment work, some sets need a strong tap effect, and some need a weak one. The weak one won't make it to constructed - but the stronger one would unbalance the limited envrionment. Often the entire concept of tapping doesn't make sense in constructed.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Gideon's Lawkeeper continuously locks down your opponent's best creature, while Blinding Beam is a double Holy Day. While they both tap creatures, their functions are completely different. You'll have to find a better example to state your case.

I considered the comparison to Tumble Magnet as well. I didn't want to spend all day looking up tap effects though.
 
There's a phenomenon which is often very subtle but exists. For example, my current deck. One night, at 2 AM, I had a great deck idea. A creatureless deck! It would be U/B, use a lot of Counterspells, lots of targeted removal. The only creature would be Snapcaster Mage, which wouldnT, really count as a creature. I would then play Nephalia Drownyards to mill the opponent, add some Ratchet Bombs against aggro and tokens...

When I posted my finalized decklsit over to Standard Deck Help, they told me "It's U/B control. Look up the Tier 1 forums".

Let's say the internet goes down tomorrow. Every person in the world is alone to deckbuild. When you'll show up at your FNM, where the "cutthroats" are, you'll face the same decks, with few variance. However, only the best deckbuilders will have access to it. Your Casual deck will still get beaten raw, but very few could have the choice to play the best, only because they don't have the dedication to research the current Standard environnement to find up the best decks.

FNM is grab-and-go. It's the day of the week where you can grab a deck and play a few games. For a lot of people, this means netdecking something to play it, because they have no interest in putting a lot of thought into creating a deck. For those, FNM would be a boring suite of losses, and they wouldn't come back. Your big shots would still have decks that would crush your Casual player.

Also, at my store, half the store plays competitive decks, and half the store plays rogue decks. Even with the internet. I've been one to surprise people with odd card choices in my decks, and it is wonderful tech when they work. However, finding which card could be tech and which would just be bad is also a deckbuilding skill. When people at my store saw that I played Archon of Justice, they frowned. When they saw it in action, they were impressed. When they saw I maindecked Ratchet Bomb back before Tokens existed, they frowned. When they saw I ate out alive aggro decks, they were impressed.

Tl;dr : playing around netdecking is as much a skill as deckbuilding. Some people have way more fun since netdecking exists. Take it as a challenge to make better decks. It's a tournament, after all. There are a lot of people there who like to win. Those will try to make the best deck possible, and if they have talent, will. It's not a bad thing. If you want to play Casual, you shouldn't be at a tournament, even a FNM, because they're not meant for you. FNM is introductory because you won't get called a judge because your foils are "marking" your deck, and you won't get many srsbsns people.

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

I just wish there was a consistent card pool for Standard. Might be a bit off-topic, but I stopped playing Standard when there was no longer Juggernaut, Hypnotic Specter, all that. I guess I could be running Sengir Vampire, but ever since WotC went full retard that doesn't sound like a viable option.
I agree that chin kee yong's approach would make for a fantastic competitive Constructed environment, but I like playing Limited too and I don't think too many casual players would play long enough to become competitive if there was no power variance.
Knowledge Pool. There's not a thing you can do to it to make it constructed-worthy, but it can be hilarious (and therefore fun) in casual, and the person playing it can "combo" it to his advantage.

It didn't pan out but people did try Curse of Exhaustion for a while.
playing around netdecking is as much a skill as deckbuilding. Some people have way more fun since netdecking exists. Take it as a challenge to make better decks. It's a tournament, after all. There are a lot of people there who like to win. Those will try to make the best deck possible, and if they have talent, will. It's not a bad thing. If you want to play Casual, you shouldn't be at a tournament, even a FNM, because they're not meant for you. FNM is introductory because you won't get called a judge because your foils are "marking" your deck, and you won't get many srsbsns people.

True, netdecking is a good crutch for players who can't be bothered to make a deck. I would argue that making a deck is 50% of the game, but there's no rule that you have to be original. Also at my shop, nearly all the FNM'ers are srsbsns. They nerdrage when they lose, especially loudly when they lose to unknowns.

The larget point of my post, though, is that netdecking wouldn't matter if there were far more tournament-viable cards and therefore more tournament-viable decks. This could be accomplished by pulling cards' power levels more toward the center. Rather than a few broken twenty-dollar rares per set, we get oodles of playable two- or three-dollar cards. Less brokenness, more diversity. That sounds like a win to me.
I agree that chin kee yong's approach would make for a fantastic competitive Constructed environment, but I like playing Limited too and I don't think too many casual players would play long enough to become competitive if there was no power variance.

Why is that--do you think a more even power level would make Limited daunting for newbies by making card choices less obvious? That's a valid point, but I don't think it would destroy the environment--drafting is already very challenging for the newcomer. We'd see a Limited with more interesting choices, right down to the last two cards in the pack.
I agree that chin kee yong's approach would make for a fantastic competitive Constructed environment, but I like playing Limited too and I don't think too many casual players would play long enough to become competitive if there was no power variance.

Why is that--do you think a more even power level would make Limited daunting for newbies by making card choices less obvious? That's a valid point, but I don't think it would destroy the environment--drafting is already very challenging for the newcomer. We'd see a Limited with more interesting choices, right down to the last two cards in the pack.



Play the MTGO cube drafts.  If you want to see power all the way down to the last to picks, that's where it is.  It's the only format I've played where I've built my initial deck and had the playables number over 30 cards!  It's crazy to have to cut more than 2 cards from a draft deck, much less more than 10!  Yes, I think a set like that would be amazing.

Why exactly do we need a skewed environment where 10% of cards see Standard play? I'm listening.

 

When everyone is special, no one is. If we didn't have bad cards than we also wouldn't have good cards. It's all relative. And to be honest, a lack of good cards would destroy the game. Sales would plummet. You may not care about that, but I do. No sales means a discontinued game.

 

He asked you a direct question and you totally danced around it.

I'm still waiting to hear why we can't see the overall quality of the cards raised a bit.  What's wrong with have 4-6 playable planeswalkers per block instead of 1?  Why didn't we have a red/black/green/white planeswalker with 4 powerful abilities for 3-4 mana in the same block with jace, the mind sculptor?  Maybe if we had had more good planewalkers we wouldn't have had to ban jace.
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True, netdecking is a good crutch for players who can't be bothered to make a deck.

For some it's a crutch.  For others, they love playing Magic but they don't want to build decks because that's not the part they like to do.

But netdecking would exist regardless of the power distribution.  If anything it would exist more because the best cards would be so much harder to determine on your own.
I agree that chin kee yong's approach would make for a fantastic competitive Constructed environment, but I like playing Limited too and I don't think too many casual players would play long enough to become competitive if there was no power variance.

Why is that--do you think a more even power level would make Limited daunting for newbies by making card choices less obvious? That's a valid point, but I don't think it would destroy the environment--drafting is already very challenging for the newcomer. We'd see a Limited with more interesting choices, right down to the last two cards in the pack.

Limited would be boring for everyone.  Not just newbies.  Part of the fun of Limited is the aspect of chance.  It's not as fun if you never get the excitement of, say, getting passed a Dungeon Geists and being excited to put it into your pool.  If every card is good, there's just no excitement there.  There was a Daily MTG article about drafting a super-cube with a ton of cards along the lines of Necropotence and it's generally really difficult to make decisions.  That's not what most people want to draft. 
True, netdecking is a good crutch for players who can't be bothered to make a deck.

For some it's a crutch.  For others, they love playing Magic but they don't want to build decks because that's not the part they like to do.

But netdecking would exist regardless of the power distribution.  If anything it would exist more because the best cards would be so much harder to determine on your own.
I agree that chin kee yong's approach would make for a fantastic competitive Constructed environment, but I like playing Limited too and I don't think too many casual players would play long enough to become competitive if there was no power variance.

Why is that--do you think a more even power level would make Limited daunting for newbies by making card choices less obvious? That's a valid point, but I don't think it would destroy the environment--drafting is already very challenging for the newcomer. We'd see a Limited with more interesting choices, right down to the last two cards in the pack.

Limited would be boring for everyone.  Not just newbies.  Part of the fun of Limited is the aspect of chance.  It's not as fun if you never get the excitement of, say, getting passed a Dungeon Geists and being excited to put it into your pool.  If every card is good, there's just no excitement there.  There was a Daily MTG article about drafting a super-cube with a ton of cards along the lines of Necropotence and it's generally really difficult to make decisions.  That's not what most people want to draft. 



foxy, I think you are misunderstanding his point. He doesn'y want to make every card blightsteel collosus with affinity. He just wants every card to have some amount of playability without being COMPLETELY worthless in any deck. Being closer doesn't not equal being the same, or even comparable really. No one expects the commons to equal the mythics here.
I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
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I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
But I thought commons were sometimes better than mythics.  But even if the gap was closed, the worst cards would still go unplayed.
But I thought commons were sometimes better than mythics.  But even if the gap was closed, the worst cards would still go unplayed.



mybe so, but the point is to at least give them a chance. Of course higher rarity should always have dibs for the better cards, but that doesn't mean that 99% of the commons have to be uttelry worthless!
I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.