Casting instants between dealing combat damage and creatures dying

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A friend of mine says this is allowed. I attacked with a creature and he blocked it. They both were both supposed to die (they were both 2/2 I think). He says he can cast an unsummon spell on his creature after the creatures deal damage, but before they die. This way his creature is returned to his hand but still does lethal damage to my creature.

Is this allowed or not?
not since the M10 rules changes
proud member of the 2011 community team
No, this hasn't been legal since M10 was released in 2009.
All Generalizations are Bad
Sine M10 changes combat damage no longer uses the stack, so there is no way to respond to it. So he can unsommon his creature to save it but will have to do this BEFORE his creature gets to deal any damage.




  
Magic 2010 Rule Changes

See Item 5 in the article

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

There was a rules change, back in 2009, called the Magic 2010 rules change.  Since then, the answer to your question is no.
Yea, I was pretty sure the rule changes made this impossible, but he thought it didn't. He now agrees with me because so many people backed it up.

Thanks guys :D
Yea, I was pretty sure the rule changes made this impossible, but he thought it didn't. He now agrees with me because so many people backed it up.


Thats a bad reason for him to change his mind - he should agree with you because you can prove that you are right, regardless of how many people are on your side. 

~ Tim    

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Yea, I was pretty sure the rule changes made this impossible, but he thought it didn't. He now agrees with me because so many people backed it up.


Thats a bad reason for him to change his mind - he should agree with you because you can prove that you are right, regardless of how many people are on your side. 

~ Tim    





That's your opinion. :P
Yea, I was pretty sure the rule changes made this impossible, but he thought it didn't. He now agrees with me because so many people backed it up.


Thats a bad reason for him to change his mind - he should agree with you because you can prove that you are right, regardless of how many people are on your side. 
~ Tim    

That's your opinion. :P

It is not an opinion: it is a fact.

Truth cannot be voted upon. A statement is either true or false. It is true if -and only if- it's in accord with reality.
The number of people who believe it not to be true cannot change the fact that it is.
If humanity voted on the shape of planet Earth, a few hundred years ago, the Flat-Earthers would have been elected.

Do you think it's any different today?

Oh, most now know about the round Earth.
But what other false statements are still believed to be true by a majority of human beings?
I'm scared even trying to figure that out.

Wizards of the Coast: outsourced to Elbonia

not since the M10 rules changes


No, this hasn't been legal since M10 was released in 2009.


Sine M10 changes combat damage no longer uses the stack, so there is no way to respond to it. So he can unsommon his creature to save it but will have to do this BEFORE his creature gets to deal any damage.

Magic 2010 Rule Changes

See Item 5 in the article

There was a rules change, back in 2009, called the Magic 2010 rules change.  Since then, the answer to your question is no.


Actually, you are all wrong, guys. What is said in the original post wasn't even possible before the rules change.

after the creatures deal damage


If the creatures dealt damage, they were put rightaway in the graveyard, even before M10 change to combat damage on the stack.

Before M10 change, you could "assign" combat damage and respond to that. Now you assign and resolve damage one after another.

;)

ps: I know that may be what OP meant but it's still erroneously explained. :D

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Truth cannot be voted upon. A statement is either true or false. It is true if -and only if- it's in accord with reality.

Truth is still subjective.

Blindfold 5 people.

Introduce each one to an elephant, but only let them experience one aspect of that elephant (its trunk, its ears, its feet, etc.)

Each person would have a different experience.
All of their statements about that experience would be true, but they would each believe the others to be mistaken. Yet they are all true.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

That story doesn't at all indicate that truth is subjective.
That story doesn't at all indicate that truth is subjective.


But truth IS subjective. Facts are facts but they can be translated into specific truths.

Rules, on the other hand ARE undenyable, unless they're contradictory or incomplete, in which cas it doesn't stay long that way.

This isn't the case with the present thread. :P

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Though the intent of the Rules isn't always discernable and they are occasionally changed to ensure the intent is transferred correctly.
eg. it wasn't clear from the rules whether Spreading Seas would do anything to Moonring Island or not until they fixed 205.1a

more recently, a question was asked about Vexing Devil's trigger in multiplayer
once one opponent has chosen to take the 4 damage, is the choice still required for the remaining players to make? Obviously the Devil will be sacced, but could the remaining players also choose to take 4?
At what point is the requirement of the choice determined? Once all players have chosen?
Or as soon as the result becomes evident?
101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player’s left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the “Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order” rule.

The [O] ruling supplemented the rules to say that the choices remain until the action is taken so later players could take 4 if they wanted to as well.



DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Truth cannot be voted upon. A statement is either true or false. It is true if -and only if- it's in accord with reality.

Truth is still subjective.
Blindfold 5 people.
Introduce each one to an elephant.
Each person would have a different experience.



Truth is not subjective.
What is true, is true.
This animal is an elephant. 
The fact that some blind people don't know it doesn't change that.

What you demonstrated with this elephant parable is that insufficiently informed individuals are prone to jump to unsupported conclusions.

Truth is the adequate interpretation of the state of reality.
Falsehood comes from mistakes (confounding an elephant's trunk with a snake)
or blatant lies ( «your tax money is well spent» ).      


Wizards of the Coast: outsourced to Elbonia

Truth cannot be voted upon. A statement is either true or false. It is true if -and only if- it's in accord with reality.

Truth is still subjective.
Blindfold 5 people.
Introduce each one to an elephant.
Each person would have a different experience.



Truth is not subjective.
What is true, is true.
This animal is an elephant. 
The fact that some blind people don't know it doesn't change that.

What you demonstrated with this elephant parable is that insufficiently informed individuals are prone to jump to unsupported conclusions.

Truth is the adequate interpretation of the state of reality.
Falsehood comes from mistakes (confounding an elephant's trunk with a snake)
or blatant lies (your tax money is well spent).      



The problem is how do we determine what is TRUE. 

Imagine there are only two people in the universe and one looks at the sky and says "I'm going to call that color blue" and the other person says "I'm going to call that color green".  At that point, what color is the sky? 

If a third person is added to the universe and they decide he sky is red, is the sky then red?  Blue? Green? 

Does the color of the sky change as more people enter the universe and add their opinion on the color of the sky? 

Is blueness or greenness inherent?  Or is that what the majority of people agreed to call that color we see?  A harder problem is when you see a color like aquamarine or teal.  Is that color blue or green. 

However, when we usually use the term "true", we generally mean "generally accepted as an accurate statement of reality".  Therefore, I suggest that truth has both obective and subjective components.  Within a society, there may be an objective measure of truth- that which is generally accepted.  But until there is a general consensus, it is subjective.  Obective truth therefore is the summation of the society's individual subjective truths. 

A good example of this is religious beliefs.  Within each faith, their beliefs are truth for them.  Other groups have other truths.  And the nature of faith is that it cannot be proven, so there is no way to select which one is "truer".

But on the topic of Magic, I think the initial poster was saying that his friend was unaware of the rules chage, but became convinced that there had been one since all of the responses provided identical explanations.  He could have looked the rules, but he trusted that multiple independent unbiased confirmations was sufficient proof for him. 

When determining truth one of the logical methods is appeal to authority. This works when both parties accept the authority appealed to as correct. This is exact board and place is the ultimate authority for the game magic the gathering. There is no higher one. NOT accepting it is almost the definition of a variant set of rules.

Many times people disagree on who the proper authority is, and if both sides do not accept the decider as an authority no agreement can be reached, but when both do accept a single source it is logically permissable to decide truth in such a fashion.

Do not get so confused by the noise that you forget to listen to the music Not every source of information is inherently wrong, just most of them.
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The problem is how do we determine what is TRUE. 

Imagine there are only two people in the universe and one looks at the sky and says "I'm going to call that color blue" and the other person says "I'm going to call that color green".  At that point, what color is the sky? 

Blue. What people call it in a particular language is a completely separate question. It's certainly possible to imagine a language where the same sound and string of symbols we associate with the concept "green" instead refer to the concept we call "blue". That has nothing to do with truth. There is a fact of the matter about what colour the sky is (or at least, about what colour it appears to be under normal conditions to humans with perceptual systems in good working order). That fact has bugger-all to do with people's linguistic practises.

The same goes for any belief, religious or otherwise. (I am going to avoid discussing any religious beliefs likely to actually be held by people on this board, but similar comments would apply to them.) There is a fact of the matter about whether the sun is, say, Apollo's chariot; namely, this is false. It doesn't matter whether people believe this, much less what the words they use to describe it sound like; no changes in people's beliefs, much less their linguistic practices, could possibly make this true. In the case of contemporary religious beliefs, it may not be so easy to tell what this fact of the matter is, but that does not alter in the slightest the fact that there is one. To claim otherwise is simply to confuse metaphysics with epistemology, and in your case, to additionally confuse epistemology with linguistics.

Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Truth is a philosophical concept, and has been debated for ceturies. The sky is neither red nor blue. The sky is mostly translucent, with a refractive index and filtering capability that shifts the aggregate photonic energy into a range that most humans percieve (when the weather is right) to fall in a range that is termed blue in the english language. This occurs because certain cells in the eyes trigger electrical impulses for energy patterns with wavelengths that have been categorized as blue.

The truth is that the sky has little to no color (unless you live in my city, where it tends to be brownish yellow ).

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and has no bearing on truth. If one truly wants to use logic, one must logically prove from a basic starting point. That starting point is often a definition or axiom. The difficulty with ever proving truth is that the definition or axiom is always an agreed upon topic based on general consensus, hence the idea that all truth is subjective and that there is no definite truth. Logically, there is definite truth, but as limited human beings, we may never know what it is.

And for all we know, the sun may be Apollo's chariot. Just because we don't see it does not mean it is not true. It just means we are not capable of percieving it. I personally don't believe it is, but I cannot prove it is not.
I suppose the truth of the matter is that this is a Rules Q&A forum and that we've strayed off-topic.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

I suppose the truth of the matter is that this is a Rules Q&A forum and that we've strayed off-topic.


That's your opinion. :P


(Sorry, I had to.) 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

ROFLMAO

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

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