So Monte Cook isn't going to be working on D&D Next

Good luck in the future to Monte Cook.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
Well that's a shock. :o
Are you interested in an online 4E game on Sunday? Contact me with a PM!
Show
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
Well, I did not see this coming. I had thought he was definitely going to be in for the long haul, even if it was mostly a gut feeling. I hope everything works out for the best for Monte.
My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
Uh oh. It might be hyperbole o'clock soon. Best of luck to Mr. Cook.

truth/humor
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

 

iserith: The game doesn't profess to be "just like our world." What it is just like is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. Any semblance to reality is purely coincidental.

 

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?

 

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon. A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.

From his LiveJournal:
My decision is one based on differences of opinion with the company. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell.


Wild speculation: Hasbro/WotC wants to broaden the market for 5E with board game and other tie-ins, and focus on a different target audience.
interesting.... always thought hasbro liked boardgames and always said they were a family company....
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
This saddens me greatly and makes me fear for the future of the game (due to corporate meddling--not because of the other designers).
That line about the company got me wondering too. I don't know.
Are you interested in an online 4E game on Sunday? Contact me with a PM!
Show
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
I bet it's because they wanted him to shave his beard...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

While I disagree with Monte quite often he's meant a LOT to this game. Seeing him go makes me VEEEEEEEEEEERY fearful for this products future.



That's how I feel about it too. I thought Iron Heroes was a good way to go about making 3.5 fresh and dynamic again, so hearing that he's departed makes me wonder who is left working on it in a major capacity, and where they are in terms of opinions.

This saddens me greatly and makes me fear for the future of the game (due to corporate meddling--not because of the other designers).



Ditto.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
Sounds like he doesn't want his name on it.    I can't blame him, especially if he is behing told how to design the system  for maximum profitability.


I'm honestly not sure how to feel about this.

On the one hand, I've disliked a lot of what he's had to say about how the game should work.

some of his ideas in those strange L&L article back and forths between him and Mike made me very unhappy about the potential direction of Next, and most of the bad was on Monte's side, for me.

Then again, I know he's worked on things I've liked, and his departure does potentially mean that Next could be less satisfying for some fans, so...IDK.

Anyway, he's a great guy, so far as I can tell, so I wish him luck.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
From his LiveJournal:
My decision is one based on differences of opinion with the company. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell.


Wild speculation: Hasbro/WotC wants to broaden the market for 5E with board game and other tie-ins, and focus on a different target audience.

I have a hard time believing anyone would ragequit after being informed of a board-game tie-in.

Wild, wild speculation: Hasbro wants a My Little Pony version of 5e, and Monte is not a Brony.

Grossly cynical speculation:
Hasbro Suit: "We need to get players to purchase craptons of blind-buy product.  Make it so everyone has to buy their ability scores, classes, and whatever else we can stick in, from booster packs of half a dozen or so random cards.  Also do monsters the same way and eliminate the MM book entirely."
Monte: Are you freakin' serious?"
W00t, I'm buying the snacks for everyone at my next gaming party!
Unfortunate, however, that the friction couldn't be between designers. If they agree with his design goals, 5e will still fail to intregue me.
I know I might come off as offesive or insensetive, but Monte will do good on his own, and 5e won't be as one sided as I thought it would be. 
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
While I wasn't very positive about Monte Cook's potential contributions towards 5e, this doesn't seem like a good omen overall.
I am sad for pretty much every possible reason.  In my opinion, Monte is a brilliant designer as long as he has someone to tell him when his ideas are terrible (which he had in the 5E team). 

In addition, he basically outright said he left due to corporate meddling; and generally speaking, any corporate meddling severe enough to cause Monte to quit is a very bad sign for me.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Eh, you can read "differences of opinion with the company" a lot of ways. If your boss tells you how it is and you don't like it, you don't share the "company" opinion. All I really get from that blog is that he is specifically not calling out the guys he worked with most directly. I've never bought the notion that Hasbro spends much effort micro-managing D&D.

truth/humor
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

 

iserith: The game doesn't profess to be "just like our world." What it is just like is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. Any semblance to reality is purely coincidental.

 

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?

 

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon. A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.

I've disagreed with a lot of Monte's game design ideas, or I should say, I thought they didn't appeal to me as a gamer. However, I had hopes that he would have a lot of involvement in setting design and adventure writing, which is, in my opinion, his true talent.

Hope for the best for Monte for the future.
Fine, I'll be the one to say it.  I'm extremely happy about this.

Every time I heard something about 5E that made me absolutely nerd-rage, I was always able to trace its insidious roots back to Cook.

D&D Next may not turn out to be any better than any previous edition, but at least now it stands a chance.

I certainly don't harbor any ill will against the man personally.  In fact, I'm sure he's better off.  He must have been VERY unhappy to have left such a prestigious position where he could have influenced the fantasy gaming world for decades to come.  But I suppose he's been there, done that.  Time to move on, eh?
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
No Monte? That is a sure sign that those of us who turned away when 4th edition came out have no reason to hang around here. At least this validates my current choice for D&D- Pathfinder. I just unfollowed the developments and won't be back here. Thanks for saving me the money I'd have spent buying your product Hasbro.
LOL Are you serious?

yes, without Monte, the game will just be a 4e clone/hold no value for fans of 3.5.

wow.


People are completely rediculous.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

So much drama!

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

influenced the fantasy gaming world for decades to come.

You mean at max one decade until they realize that an "eternal decision" is very bad for revenue and they need true real new core books to generate a fresh spike in sales and thus release a new edition (since they already played the ".5 edition we don't call that way in public" card).

I wonder whether the cancelled panel Monte was due to appear on at Norwescon has anything to do with this?

I've no idea what this means for DnDnext, and I'm pretty relaxed about it; I'd be concerned if they were pinning the hopes of the next edition on the shoulders of one man. I wish Monte well, and I'll be interested in finding out what he does next. Wonder whether it's anything to do with 13th Age?

(No, I don't expect so!)
My guess is that internal testing and/or focus grouping for 5E has resulted in feedback that runs counter to key design points that Monte felt were required for it the product to function and management decided to heed the feedback over Monte's instincts.

My gut feeling is that the TSR-era worship and the near-total abandonment of all things 4E in the design of 5E is NOT playing as well with general focus/testing groups as the developers hoped it would be.

Some possibilities might be any or all of the following...

- There are fewer players of the TSR-era editions of D&D than were expected.
- The players of TSR-era editions of D&D are less interested in trying out a new system than expected.
- The market of lapsed TSR-era players who might be willing to give a new TSR-like system a try is smaller than expected.
- Fewer Pathfinder players than expected would be willing to give a new version of D&D a try.
- The number of 4E players who would not make the jump to 5E as it is currently being described to them is larger than expected.

In short, any of a number of things that might indicate that the current iteration of 5E would not be able to meet the profit demands of Hasbro could result in the desire to change the direction of 5E development in a direction that Monte would not be comfortable with.

So much drama!



more than most d&d games!
Could it have anything to do with Hasbro posting a loss?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

It might have something to do with his "interesting announcement . . . in the near future."

Maybe he sees more money in producing modules than he does in remaining lead designer.  Working on both at the same time might constitute a conflict of interests and may even be against his contract (which would certainly count as differences with the company).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

When will WOTC speak?
When will WOTC speak?


If I had to guess: only once they feel a comment is necessary, and only after they have taken the time to carefully craft a comment so people don't nerdrage over an implied meaning that is being read into something they inded to have a different meaning.

Let's face it, the entire D&D community, taken as whole, is one of the most irrational and self-conflicting communities I've ever seen.  Say anything without saying it carefully, and you'll alienate part of the community.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Thrilled. Hoping they will dump this Next "forward to the past" crap altogether and fix 4e which is a fine, fun game for all participants except for a few things like combat taking too long at paragon & epic tiers.
 
This is bad news... this will probably fracture the player base even more. People who liked Monte will be probably be less interested in DnDNext. And whatever he does next he is likely to take a few players with him.


The Character Initiative


Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.




I have a feeling Monte might jump onboard 13th Age with his friends Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet...


Good luck Monte in any future project you decide to undertake!

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

This is bad news... this will probably fracture the player base even more. People who liked Monte will be probably be less interested in DnDNext. And whatever he does next he is likely to take a few players with him.



I wish you were wrong but I think you hit the nail on the head.
This is awful! I had noticed a change in the direction the game was going with the recent articles about characters will now be "palidin whereolf lurker" or "roughe mystic soldier." Held out hope that my fears about this turning into a steaming pile of crap was wrong, but now that Monte is gone? 

Peoples posts about "behing happy" about this also ticks me off. I wouldnt be happy if one of their signigture designers left. Either way its not a game to unite every one if this starts to happen. My interest in this game just went down alot both becuase of Monte's departure and the attitude of people on these boards, their total insensitivity for the group of players who liked several or all editions of DnD instead of just 4th alone makes me sick.

There are plenty of good games out there, Hacmaster and Dungeon crawl classics RPG come to mind immideiatly. Not a big fan of pathfinder but it sounds like that is going to be my "go-to" place to find people who wont hate all over me just because im not a 4th ed butt kisser. 

I don't have interest to be part of this community any more. When the playtest document comes out (if it ever comes out) I will download it and give it a look over, just incase there is a slim chanch that they managed to pull off something half decent that I might be interested in. But honestly, with people's attitudes, I am ready to pick up my dice and go join another game, a non hasbro produced fantasy role play game. Yeah, maybe Monte has the right idea. I think I will join him.

Good bye Wizards of the Coast, and I wish YOU all the best of luck! 
I get the sinking feeling that Corporate is meddling with Design.  This is never good, so I'm worried.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

When will WOTC speak?


WotC talk to their fans about something that hasn't had two weeks to build into a huge issue? Never!

It likely wasn't a Hasbro issue and more upper WotC management that likely don't play D&D or really care about the game and just view it as a side investment between Magic and Kaijudo releases. And all their legal requirements, mandated spin, and fun corporate hurdles that are really just getting in the way of making games.
WotC really seems like a company that is in love with it's corporate atmosphere and pretending to be a much bigger deal than a small publishing and card game company.

I wrote a blog about why 4e failed a while back and 75% of the reasons had nothing to do with the actual edition and were related to the buisness end. I hope I won't look back on this in 4 1/2 years as the first reason why 5e failed.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

The ''The differences of opinion with the company'' could also be well on non-Design related subject such as terms of contract, advantages (salary, assurances, vacations etc..)

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I disagreed with some of his ideas for D&D Next, and I agreed with others.

I'm still very excited to see D&D Next, and the remaining designers are surrounded by a lot of talent so I have faith that a new designer can be found to fill Mr Cook's place if it is deemed to needs filling.

I wish Monte Cook all the best in whatever he chooses to move on to.




Most of my favorite designers are currently at work on 13th Age, but Robin D Laws might be available (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Laws).
over at enworld, in between posts of people saying 5e is dead, they are speculating it was a disagreement over the GSL/OGL for 5e

makes sense. maybe they were trying to 'pull a 4e' on him.