Machine Gun Breathing - The Dragonbreath Sorcerer

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At the moment this is  just going to be an idea dump, I will reformat everything into a proper guide format once I have some motivation.  If you have suggestions or things you want to make sure get added, please post them on here during this first stage.  The more information I have to work with, the better!

Please do not post without looking in this Sblock if you are in any way confused about what this build means:

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This build is specifically using Ancient Soul to recharge your breath weapon whenever you take damage of the same type as your breath.  Nusemnee's Atonement allows you to redirect damage from your allies in your breath's area to yourself.  Ideally this allows you to breath 3x per turn (since it is a minor action).  I am planning on building different versions of this to take into account that many DMs will not allow you to breath 3 times a turn, regardless of what the rules say (Or in Epic 7+ times in a turn).

Without Nusemnee's Atonement as the recharger most builds will kill themselves very quickly.  PC health does not scale like monster health and without NA you are going to be penetrating all of your own lovely resistance.  Hurl Breath and NA together also allow you to keep your distance if you need to which is very crucial to not getting eaten for this build.

Stats for this build will vary a little bit depending on how much con and dex you want/need for the build.  DIS is very useful for both builds, but less so for the slide/push heavy builds that need you to have at minimum +1 con mod (and then sooner you get it the better).  One thing that is taken as a base assumption is that your will start the build with 18 str and 18 cha (after mods). (There is a rare chance this might be different for the 1/round breath sub-build, but that will come into play later).


Feats (General):
Ancient Soul - Required
Nusemnee's Atonement - Required
Draconic Spellcaster
Draconic Arrogance
True Dragon's Soul (Mostly useless, but included)
Draconic Reaping (Revenant)
Plagued Breath (Spellscar)
Enlarged Breath
Hurl Breath
Daunting Breath (Trained in Intimidate)
Powerful Breath
Surprising Breath
Adaptable Breath + Admixture Breath
Empowered Dragon Breath
Critical Breath
Opportunity Breath


Feats (Specific MC):
Breath of Life (Cleric)
Draconic Challenge (Paladin)
Dragonborn Vengeance (Warden) - Feat bonus >.>
Emerald Scale Concealment (Assassin)
Breath of the Gods/Covenant of Io (Invoker, requires Hybrid.  Covenant makes Divine Attack Power)
Dragonclaw Mark (Fighter)
Inspiring Breath (Warlord)
Primal Breath (Warden)
Io's Roar (Any psionic)
Dragonbreath Warrior (Any Martial)
Dragon Breath Scoundrel (Rogue)
Dragon Breath Tactician (Warlord)


Feats (Specific Breath Types):
Arcane Admixture

Fire:
Fiery Blood
Burning Breath
Surging Flame

Lightning/Thunder:
Lightning Soul
Thunder's Rumble
Thundering Breath

Cold:
Icy Heart
Frost Breath

Radiant:
Radiant Breath

Acid:
Burning Vapors
Corrosive Breath

Poison:
Toxic Breath

Items:
Blazing Blessing of Fangs
Blessing of the Queen Set
Silver Dragon Regalia

Paragon Paths:
Ninefold Master
Argentum Alliance

Epic Destinies:
Master of Moments
Avatar of Io


Note: Wizards site went down for maintenance while I was trying to keep my motivation up to do this... Figures.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Possible Builds:

For the moment I am planning on organizing builds by their primary breath weapon type (The one you chose at level 1.)

Lighting Builds:
DPR King Build (Argentum Alliance / Master of Moments (MC Fighter)    - The Single Target Killer)
Voice of Thunder - (Ninefold Master / Avatar of Io (MC Fighter) - Multi-target Damage and Forced Movement)
Invisible Defender - (Sorcerer|Fighter / ** (MC Assassin) - The Best Tanks can't be seen.)
Word to your Warlord (What to do if you never leave Heroic Tier) 

Fire:
True Dragons Breath Fire -  (Ninefold Master / Avatar of Io (MC Warlord or Fighter) - For when you want to make sure they keep on burning.

Cold/Acid:
The DM's Friend - (Ninefold Master / ** (MC **) - The 1/round build to prevent your DM from pulling their hair out)

Radiant:
Convenant of Mouths (Sorcerer|Invoker / ** (MC**)  - Possible goal of playing with breath as a radiant "divine attack power"

Psychic:
My Mouth says "Dark Sun" (Ninefold Master / Avatar of Io (MC Psion) - For tossing out vulnerabilities.  Thus far a very weak build)

 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Themes:

 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Items:
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Sample Normal Turn:
Sample Nova Turn:
 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Not to be rude but didn't I read a thread on this subject two years ago?
Not to be rude but didn't I read a thread on this subject two years ago?



Not to be rude but does that really matter?
Hey, that was his own thread. Can't blame the man for updating.
Wow, we ARE all ****s at CharOp. It was the same guy, good luck with this Matyr!
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

Nusemnee's Atonement - Required



Not required. You can use Bolstering Breath to make it friendly/buff and find another way to take damage to recharge. Can slow down the rate of fire, but improves targetting and makes you a little survivable.


Items:
Blazing Blessing of Fangs
Blessing of the Queen Set



?Gifts for the Queen? 

Silver Dragons Regalia can save a few feat slots.

 
Hey Matyr, glad to see you giving this another go. It was sad to see how the last thread died. Would love to see variations on  the formula playable from level 1 (or, is 2nd the earliest...?). I had a difficult time our last go trying to make the machine gun work with what I considered an independantly viable build. Do try the warlock Hellish variation, please. Though the power is more clearly worded now, this combo triggers the secondary damage earlier than the item dependant warlock, and the damage just from Hellish Rebuke, when reliably triggered, can be competitive with a twin striking ranger. I'd also like to suggest you include comments for the 1/round viriety of this build, my own DM shot down the 3 times early, and even I felt like it was a bit cheesy. (I generally avoid using Frost weapons, though, for the same reason.)

@ Marshall: Nusemnee's is specifically required for the machine gun effect. I don't see another viable way to recharge the power 3 times per round.

I like Ninefold Master and Arcane Sword to get Breath as a true at-will.  Of course, it's level 30 and you don't get a stat bump on the ED, but Breath is an at-will power belonging to the Sorcerer class (if you go sorcerer MC'd into Swordmage or hybrid), and that means the Spellfury feats work with it.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
If this is about a Dragonborn Sorcerer, then why do you have Feats for a Dragonborn Fighter? Sure, you could still MC Fighter, but a Sorcerer isn't likely to have the Strength Mod to make use of Draconic Arrogance.
I suggest you read the Sorcerer entry again.  Pay particular attention to the Dragon Magic spell source.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If this is about a Dragonborn Sorcerer, then why do you have Feats for a Dragonborn Fighter? Sure, you could still MC Fighter, but a Sorcerer isn't likely to have the Strength Mod to make use of Draconic Arrogance.

...Not sure if serious...
Similarly, no Dragonbreath spammer I've ever seen has EVER  used bolstering breath and such. Its just too hard to regen it enough without damaging yourself, daily immediates and APs only go so far.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
If this is about a Dragonborn Sorcerer, then why do you have Feats for a Dragonborn Fighter? Sure, you could still MC Fighter, but a Sorcerer isn't likely to have the Strength Mod to make use of Draconic Arrogance.



The MCs are an important part of the build.  The build I favor goes the MC fighter route for a ton of extra damage that is enemy specific (so it doesn't get redirected to you when you rechage).  Others I list for the sake of a nod in their direction.  I do not, for instance, recommend ever adding poison to your arsenal as a breath option, however listing it and rating it using the standard color system (which is the ultimate goal) makes it show that I am attempting to consider all options.

Also, you go 16/16 with the build, so your Str mod will actually be the same as your Cha mod.


I like Ninefold Master and Arcane Sword to get Breath as a true at-will.  Of course, it's level 30 and you don't get a stat bump on the ED, but Breath is an at-will power belonging to the Sorcerer class (if you go sorcerer MC'd into Swordmage or hybrid), and that means the Spellfury feats work with it.



I will make a not to this build, like to the others.  However the purpose of this build is to make it effectively at-will using Atonement to recharge most of the time and a select few powers to recharge the rest of the time.  Generally speaking the EDs are going to be Master of Moments and Avatar of Io.  MoM for the extra move and minor on AP (which both turn into breath weapons) and Avatar for obvious reasons.


Not required. You can use Bolstering Breath to make it friendly/buff and find another way to take damage to recharge. Can slow down the rate of fire, but improves targetting and makes you a little survivable.

 

For the purposes of this build, that is required.  Bolstering Breath would make the build not work as is, so I'm going to mark it red.  If you can come up with a reliable way to recharge your breath that does not involve nusemnee's and does not require another player, I will gladly add it as an option.  Until then, it will be Gold for this build. (Especially considering Lightning Soul, OMG Lightning Soul)


?Gifts for the Queen? 

Silver Dragons Regalia can save a few feat slots.

 

I couldn't remember the name of the regalia at the time and the compendium was down.  It will be added to the list.  There are pieces of the Gifts set that you will, however, be wearing as well.  The 2pc from Gifts is very nice, as is the effect of the ring.  Also, not sure what "feat slots" we are saving with those items.  When I build this more thoroughly I will keep a look out for it.

I appreciate any help people want to give, as far as additions on things such as ED options, feats, items and other such interactions.  Having everyone here to remind me of things is incredibly helpful for the idea dump stage.  Once I get the guide up (this weekend most likely) and start rating things, then I will be shifting things to fine tuning things.
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I couldn't remember and my search-fu sucks to be honest. My apologies Matyr.
I couldn't remember and my search-fu sucks to be honest. My apologies Matyr.


No worries.  I actually considered necroing that thread at first and then discarded that thought.  My understanding of the system, while still limited, is much better than it was back then.  Hopefully I can make a better guide now that I understand more what things should look like, and what standards I should aspire to.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Hurl Breath and Arcane Reach are both alternatives to using Nusemnee's Atonement (just include yourself in the AoE).

Still doesn't work with Bolstering Breath though. 
Hurl Breath and Arcane Reach are both alternatives to using Nusemnee's Atonement (just include yourself in the AoE).

Still doesn't work with Bolstering Breath though. 



They are alternatives, and I may include them.  The major issue with Arcane Reach is 15 dex when you want str/cha/con hurts.  Also, if you hurl breath yourself, you are going to kill yourself well before you are useful.  The amount of damage incoming from your breath should be high enough to kill you as fast or faster than the enemy.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I was looking into doing something similar and I couldn't find anything that really worked prior to paragon. The best I could come up with was hybriding warlock and picking chromatic bolt (hit your target then another critter -in this case yourself- with your con mod) and arcane admixture to get the damage type right. Hit the baddie, plink yourself, and then dragon belch everyone to death.
Hurl Breath and Arcane Reach are both alternatives to using Nusemnee's Atonement (just include yourself in the AoE).

Still doesn't work with Bolstering Breath though. 



They are alternatives, and I may include them.  The major issue with Arcane Reach is 15 dex when you want str/cha/con hurts.  Also, if you hurl breath yourself, you are going to kill yourself well before you are useful.  The amount of damage incoming from your breath should be high enough to kill you as fast or faster than the enemy.


Yeah, I'd mostly only recommend those for revenants (which also makes the dex requirement easier on Arcane Reach).
I was looking into doing something similar and I couldn't find anything that really worked prior to paragon. The best I could come up with was hybriding warlock and picking chromatic bolt (hit your target then another critter -in this case yourself- with your con mod) and arcane admixture to get the damage type right. Hit the baddie, plink yourself, and then dragon belch everyone to death.



Read how Nusemnee's Atonement works.  Level 2, done and done.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I've always tried to make this build work but I honestly just don't think it works really.  Not in the "it can't be done" sense but in the "its not worth it" sense.  You're continually having to hurt yourself at least 3 times per round just to make this work and there is far too many points of failure.  The moment you miss your ally the whole thing is over.  Potentially you can aim for 2 allys to lessen the chance of that happening but then you are potentially hitting yourself twice per breath which will start to hurt.  There is also the chance that even if you hit your resistance from Nusemnees might cancel out the damage and cause you not to take any so again your combo is over.  I think to make this work properly you need to choose some other spell with your standard to plink yourself with a couple of damage and live with just using this once per round while still doing standard attacks.
I've always tried to make this build work but I honestly just don't think it works really.  Not in the "it can't be done" sense but in the "its not worth it" sense.  You're continually having to hurt yourself at least 3 times per round just to make this work and there is far too many points of failure.  The moment you miss your ally the whole thing is over.  Potentially you can aim for 2 allys to lessen the chance of that happening but then you are potentially hitting yourself twice per breath which will start to hurt.  There is also the chance that even if you hit your resistance from Nusemnees might cancel out the damage and cause you not to take any so again your combo is over.  I think to make this work properly you need to choose some other spell with your standard to plink yourself with a couple of damage and live with just using this once per round while still doing standard attacks.



A Few points:
The damage and + hit are incredible.  Unless your ally is specifically building up their Reflex you will always hit them on anything but a 1-3 after heroic tier.
The resistance isn't a problem after level 4 (It is very easy to get enough damage to overcome the NA reduction and not kill yourself)
Most builds have an at-will attack to refresh their breath as a back up as well as Ninefold Master which lets you recharge with your AP.
 
As far as people who wonder whether it "actually works", I've played it as a good build from 1-13 so far with no major issues.  The major idea is that regardless of what you do, you can't forget you are a sorcerer.   Yes you are building around your breath, but you will still be an effective sorcerer while all that is going on.  On the very rare chance (I've never had a combat where I have been sans a breath in paragon tier) you don't have a breath weapon, you are just like a normal sorc with a -2 to hit.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
If this is about a Dragonborn Sorcerer, then why do you have Feats for a Dragonborn Fighter? Sure, you could still MC Fighter, but a Sorcerer isn't likely to have the Strength Mod to make use of Draconic Arrogance.



The MCs are an important part of the build.  The build I favor goes the MC fighter route for a ton of extra damage that is enemy specific (so it doesn't get redirected to you when you rechage).  Others I list for the sake of a nod in their direction.  I do not, for instance, recommend ever adding poison to your arsenal as a breath option, however listing it and rating it using the standard color system (which is the ultimate goal) makes it show that I am attempting to consider all options.

Also, you go 16/16 with the build, so your Str mod will actually be the same as your Cha mod.



...Now I feel kind of dumb. I completely forgot to check what stats a Dragon Magic Sorcerer uses, so I assumed that Strength wasn't one of their primary ability scores.

Also, now that you mention it, the 'covering all bases' thing is pretty solid. I really should have thought of it.

I apologize for my stupid question.
A Few points:
The damage and + hit are incredible.  Unless your ally is specifically building up their Reflex you will always hit them on anything but a 1-3 after heroic tier.


Missing on a 1-3 means you theres something like a 45% chance that you lose your breath every round (someone whos better at probability can work out the exact number I'm sure.
The resistance isn't a problem after level 4 (It is very easy to get enough damage to overcome the NA reduction and not kill yourself)
Most builds have an at-will attack to refresh their breath as a back up as well as Ninefold Master which lets you recharge with your AP.


I'm certain the resist 5 generally isn't a problem, especially since you're doing 1d6 + Str mod + Con mod.  I'd say if anything the main problem will be not killing yourself.  And ninefold master is a paragon path, pretty sure you can't get them at level 4.
 
As far as people who wonder whether it "actually works", I've played it as a good build from 1-13 so far with no major issues.  The major idea is that regardless of what you do, you can't forget you are a sorcerer.   Yes you are building around your breath, but you will still be an effective sorcerer while all that is going on.  On the very rare chance (I've never had a combat where I have been sans a breath in paragon tier) you don't have a breath weapon, you are just like a normal sorc with a -2 to hit.


Honestly a -2 to attack while also having no other feats for your normal sorc powers makes you a pretty bad sorc once you're breath is down.

Not killing yourself with it is actually pretty easy. On average you go through the same number of surges a normal Sorc does... because rather then getting hit by things, you do damage to yourself and kill things faster so they can't hit you. At low levels the 10% (9.75%) chance of losing your breath every round (only use it twice, your Standard is still better spent on real Sorc powers in Heroic) is kind of irrelevant because breath is so powerful relative to monster HP in Heroic. At Paragon when you have multiple recovery mechanics so it no longer really ever happens that you lose it and at Epic you basically don't miss (Sorcerous Flux). Playing a Breather from 7-30 I lost my breath completely once at level 17.
Chance of missing at least once = 1 - chance of every attack hitting.

Miss = 1 - x^n

X = chance to hit once (.85 if you hit on a 4)
n = number of attacks

This assumes you're hitting one ally, not multiple. Each additional ally is effectively a re-roll, so the math should be

1+(x+(y*x))^n

Where y is your chance to miss (thus thur chance of needing the re-roll).
@ Marshall: Nusemnee's is specifically required for the machine gun effect. I don't see another viable way to recharge the power 3 times per round.

If you find a way to shift after you attack...  you can move into a conflagurating breath area.  Then you could go full Str or something...

Boots of caiphon is a minor, but that's not going to be a net gain (unless you don't have allies).

At very least, conflagurating breath + a move action will let you recharge if you miss.


guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oh, also...  If you hybrid (+ ninefold), you can pick Dex instead of Str as your bonus damage.

Makes for an easier arcane reach, DIS, and better supports revenant.  Might be worth the feat for the + Damage + Init.  Plus you can snag even more feats, such as enlarge spell.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Out of curiosity Matyr, where is the -2 coming from?
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Out of curiosity Matyr, where is the -2 coming from?



Was talking about being in paragon sans a weapon/implement expertise feat (+1/+2/+3 to attack rolls).  It is actually really easy to get around that with Draconic Spellcaster, but some builds/level ranges you won't have it.

@ Marshall: Nusemnee's is specifically required for the machine gun effect. I don't see another viable way to recharge the power 3 times per round.

If you find a way to shift after you attack...  you can move into a conflagurating breath area.  Then you could go full Str or something...

Boots of caiphon is a minor, but that's not going to be a net gain (unless you don't have allies).

At very least, conflagurating breath + a move action will let you recharge if you miss.




Two possible means of recharging, neither as elegant or reliable as just using atonement and calling it a day.  I would consider those back up means to recharging the breath.

Chance of missing at least once = 1 - chance of every attack hitting. Miss = 1 - x^n X = chance to hit once (.85 if you hit on a 4) n = number of attacks This assumes you're hitting one ally, not multiple. Each additional ally is effectively a re-roll, so the math should be 1+(x+(y*x))^n Where y is your chance to miss (thus thur chance of needing the re-roll).



Yes, this assumes you can't recharge with that standard action you are most likely going to be taking.  With the exception of a few circumstances (higher level play, a specific encounter where you need to murder minions etc) you will still be using your standard to blast something with a sorc spell.  When you mix that together with even the most basic combitations (Burning Spray + Damage dyer of your choice is the first one that comes to mind) you get ways to use atonement to recover your breath if you still have the need.  In paragon the damage you are taking is very small even when you use a non-breath attack to recharge.

It is actually fairly easy to get "I only miss my ally on a 1, also I roll twice" per breath to recharge, and the way Lightning Soul possibly works (jury still out on that one) it might be better to include multiple allies in the burst/blast.  The key here is "yes I will be hurting myself, but the fact that you are dead means that you aren't hurting me."



Missing on a 1-3 means you theres something like a 45% chance that you lose your breath every round (someone whos better at probability can work out the exact number I'm sure.


Assuming you breathe three times, which at low levels you don't and at high levels you are only missing on a 1 and have multiple ways to recover

I'm certain the resist 5 generally isn't a problem, especially since you're doing 1d6 + Str mod + Con mod.  I'd say if anything the main problem will be not killing yourself.  And ninefold master is a paragon path, pretty sure you can't get them at level 4.



In heroic you are, with most builds, going to be doing a 1d6+5 to yourself.  Meaning you do 1d5 to yourself.  The situations where this character shines is using their breaths to kill minions (which lowers incoming group damage since at that level most minions are hitting for about 5 a pop) and/or put creatures in positions whether they either can't hurt anyone and/or give your entire group a static +5 damage on those targets for a turn.

Ask yourself this question: "Would I deal a 1d5 damage to myself to give everyone in my party +5 to damage rolls against all targets in a burst 3 for one turn?"  The answer is going to nearly always be "yes" and if you have a rogue/ranger in the party it becomes "hell yes".  You might also note that in this situation I'm ignoring the damage you do.

I'm not sure where I implied you could use NFM at level 4, but I apologize if it came across that way.  NFM is just helpful later on. 

Honestly a -2 to attack while also having no other feats for your normal sorc powers makes you a pretty bad sorc once you're breath is down.



You mean if you build a niche build and once per campaign you can't use your niche you are bad?  Say it ain't so...  Also, what feats are you missing out on (that you wouldn't take with this build) that turn you from normal sorc to bad sorc.  If two sorcerers are next to eachother and the difference is "one has +2 to hit and the other doesn't"  I'd be hard pressed to say one is bad and one isn't.  I could say one is better in that situation, but bad is a bit of a stretch.

...Now I feel kind of dumb. I completely forgot to check what stats a Dragon Magic Sorcerer uses, so I assumed that Strength wasn't one of their primary ability scores.

Also, now that you mention it, the 'covering all bases' thing is pretty solid. I really should have thought of it.

I apologize for my stupid question.

No need to apologize.  One of the core reasons I am making this thread is for these types of misconceptions.  For some players the idea of a caster who hurts himself all the time seems insane (what the squishies squish themselves?  How absurd!).  For some players the idea of a sorcerer having ways to maintain very high defenses seems odd too.  So does the big buff spellcaster who has just as much strength as force of will.

These sorts of things are the reason I felt this guide was needed. (Also, I want to eventually see if we can try to make a reasonable concensus about Lightning Soul one of these days).

Edit: Last bit of the post uses Bold to show quotes because the quote function was being squirrely and for no other reason.
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My post was in response to Franger, not you, Martyr. That said, once you start hitting on a 2, your accuracy is just under 86% if you breath three times a round and target exactly one ally. Target two and the accuracy goes to 99.3%
My post was in response to Franger, not you, Martyr. That said, once you start hitting on a 2, your accuracy is just under 86% if you breath three times a round and target exactly one ally. Target two and the accuracy goes to 99.3%



I know, I just wanted to respond to the response.  I didn't want to make you feel left out.
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@ Marshall: Nusemnee's is specifically required for the machine gun effect. I don't see another viable way to recharge the power 3 times per round.

If you find a way to shift after you attack...  you can move into a conflagurating breath area.  Then you could go full Str or something...

Boots of caiphon is a minor, but that's not going to be a net gain (unless you don't have allies).

At very least, conflagurating breath + a move action will let you recharge if you miss.




While I haven't done the work to figure it out, if you have previously made breath an implement attack, and use one of the qualifying weapons as your implement (or possibly second implement), Mobile Warrior might work to recharge 3 times per round (just tossing out an idea, i realize rod is the preferred implement, and it doesn't qualify(.

Edit: That would, of course, push a Dex requirement, which is probably not that desirable... Nusemnee's is probably the best bet.
@ Marshall: Nusemnee's is specifically required for the machine gun effect. I don't see another viable way to recharge the power 3 times per round.

If you find a way to shift after you attack...  you can move into a conflagurating breath area.  Then you could go full Str or something...

Boots of caiphon is a minor, but that's not going to be a net gain (unless you don't have allies).

At very least, conflagurating breath + a move action will let you recharge if you miss.




While I haven't done the work to figure it out, if you have previously made breath an implement attack, and use one of the qualifying weapons as your implement (or possibly second implement), Mobile Warrior might work to recharge 3 times per round (just tossing out an idea, i realize rod is the preferred implement, and it doesn't qualify(.

Edit: That would, of course, push a Dex requirement, which is probably not that desirable... Nusemnee's is probably the best bet.



I would like to see how this would work though, would you mind showing how you are getting implement keyword on the breath attack?  I would appreciate it.
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In heroic you are, with most builds, going to be doing a 1d6+5 to yourself.  Meaning you do 1d5 to yourself.  The situations where this character shines is using their breaths to kill minions (which lowers incoming group damage since at that level most minions are hitting for about 5 a pop) and/or put creatures in positions whether they either can't hurt anyone and/or give your entire group a static +5 damage on those targets for a turn.

Ask yourself this question: "Would I deal a 1d5 damage to myself to give everyone in my party +5 to damage rolls against all targets in a burst 3 for one turn?"  The answer is going to nearly always be "yes" and if you have a rogue/ranger in the party it becomes "hell yes".  You might also note that in this situation I'm ignoring the damage you do.



Doing 3d6 damage to yourself every round is pretty harsh in heroic though, especially at low levels, you can potentially bloody yourself just on your turn.

Question:  Which feat are you using to give your teammates +5 to damage rolls against targets in that burst, I can't find it.

The other problem is that there are so many cool effects you can tack onto your dragonbreath, but unless your ally is ok with being hit by those same effects then you have a problem and are reduced to just dishing out damage.
It's also worth pointing out that you penetrate your own resistance...
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He is MCing Warlord. They have a feat for it. And it is 1d6. Not 3d6. DB isn't 3d6 till Epic.

Most of the effects you'd want to tack onto DB specify "enemies." So that isn't really an issue. The rest are damage, which you can take yourself (kind of the point).
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