04/25/2012 BoaB: "Standard With Avacyn Restored"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I really feel like both of today's decks ignore the word "budget" in the column's title. The first deck uses 20 rares and the second uses 14 and 4 mythics. They seem like cool decks, but I could just play something really Tier I for that price, like Delver or Ramp. To me, this column should be more as it was in JMS's excellent run, in which no expensive rares would be used and rares in general kept to a minimum. This column just feels like a general tournament-focused deck-building column, not anything designed for budget players.
I really feel like both of today's decks ignore the word "budget" in the column's title. The first deck uses 20 rares and the second uses 14 and 4 mythics.

You must be new here.  JVL has been using "budget" very loosely since roughly forever.

I really feel like both of today's decks ignore the word "budget" in the column's title. The first deck uses 20 rares and the second uses 14 and 4 mythics. They seem like cool decks, but I could just play something really Tier I for that price, like Delver or Ramp. To me, this column should be more as it was in JMS's excellent run, in which no expensive rares would be used and rares in general kept to a minimum. This column just feels like a general tournament-focused deck-building column, not anything designed for budget players.


Either deck can be bought for under $100, significantly under if you do some trading at the prerelease.  You can't even come close to a proper Tier 1 Delver deck for that price.  

Budget is subjective, and I like JVL's articles better than any of the previous authors.
I love green decks, and I've literally been frothing at the mouth over Avacyn Restored's new green cards!! Build the Wolfir deck!

I do like the idea of blinking Sunblast Angel.



Contemporary Magic design is such that "Chase Mythics" exist and thus become the core of tier 1 decks.  I don't particularly like this, but given that it's so I must agree that any deck not using those chase cards is "budget" by comparison.

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Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Loose with the term budget is an understatement.

A $100 deck is not a budget deck. Period. He should respect the fact that most budget players are making decks that cost somewhere around 30-50 dollars max. Going twice that is just irresponsibly ignorant to the budget building community.

I'm not saying he should be setting a maximum dollar value or rare limit to decks. But Plopping 4 Venser's in a deck without a second guess, or adding 2 Damnations or other crap he's done in the past is just getting frustrating.

I like JVL's originality and deck ideas...Some of the time. His deck using the card Annex and his Pyromancer Ascension decks where both great articles. But it's like for every one good deck he makes, we get a myriad of other over budget, unplaytested, or illegal decks (like his ponder blunder a month ago).

This column has the unique ability to provide budget players (There are a lot of us) with what should be a professional take on budget deckbuilding. That is hard to find elsewhere on the internet. Most people just make crazy expensive decks and chuck $40+ rares in left right and centre. And trying to filter through fandecks that are even half decent and are also budget is a nightmare. So us budget players come here with wide eyes and childlike hope that a professional can help us solve our budget woes.

I really feel like at times JVL doesn't appreciate this distinction very much and just lazily pushes out one article after another.

I say it's high time he either figures out how to write these articles consistently, or we get a new author (or bring back BB).
Are people really complaining that this isn't a budget deck because of the -number- of rares in it?  Do you people really not realize that not all rares are priced the same?

Venser isn't used in anything, and we just got a Duel Deck with him in it.  The high-point NM price on Star City is $8, so you should be able to pick up a playset for like $20 easily, and that's without trading for any.

Sunblast Angel is a $0.50 rare that you can pick up 4-for-a-dollar in most places.

Restoration Angel is worth $5 preorder, but she's the freaking release promo, and judging by preorder prices is always a fool's errand anyway.  This is another card you can pick up for basically nothing.

The only rares worth anything in this deck are the Days and the Blade Splicers which are $2-3 a pop.  Everything else is common/uncommon.  If you spend more than $40 building this entire deck you got ripped off.  And if $40 isn't budget, then I'm sorry for you.

The Green deck isn't bad either.  Dungrove is $3 a pop and Predator Ooze, Wolfir Silverheart, Champion of Lambholt, and Ulvenvald Tracker are all sub-$2.  The only pricey card is Birds of Paradise, but they've been printed so many times it's almost irrelevant.  This whole deck costs like $20 to make.


I've seen Pauper decks that cost more then these.  Seriously people, there is no way you can complain that these aren't budget.
Loose with the term budget is an understatement.



A $100 deck is not a budget deck. Period. He should respect the fact that most budget players are making decks that cost somewhere around 30-50 dollars max. Going twice that is just irresponsibly ignorant to the budget building community.

I'm not saying he should be setting a maximum dollar value or rare limit to decks. But Plopping 4 Venser's in a deck without a second guess, or adding 2 Damnations or other crap he's done in the past is just getting frustrating.

I like JVL's originality and deck ideas...Some of the time. His deck using the card Annex and his Pyromancer Ascension decks where both great articles. But it's like for every one good deck he makes, we get a myriad of other over budget, unplaytested, or illegal decks (like his ponder blunder a month ago).

This column has the unique ability to provide budget players (There are a lot of us) with what should be a professional take on budget deckbuilding. That is hard to find elsewhere on the internet. Most people just make crazy expensive decks and chuck $40+ rares in left right and centre. And trying to filter through fandecks that are even half decent and are also budget is a nightmare. So us budget players come here with wide eyes and childlike hope that a professional can help us solve our budget woes.

I really feel like at times JVL doesn't appreciate this distinction very much and just lazily pushes out one article after another.

I say it's high time he either figures out how to write these articles consistently, or we get a new author (or bring back BB).





Um you can get the first deck of under 50 dollars at SCG which is isnt even the cheapest you can get it

 @Restoration Hardware

  Avacyn Restored Standard




Love this deck idea. I would throw a few tweaks. Go a Little closer to a White Blue combo instead of White splash blue.

Ponder: For Obvious Reasons
Lingering Souls>Timely Reinforcements
Brings flying protection for Venser
Vault of the Archangel: to grab that healing and deal with big beasties
Solemn Simulcrum>Mycosynth Wellspring
 A little more expensive but is a blocker and has synergy with Blade Splicer even though i took out Blad Slicer
I would try to make room for Sleep and Feeling of Dread obvious built in synergy with Sunblast

This is my Deck Idea with no AVR in it Built it tried it loved it. It would be easy enought to make room for Restoration Angel in this deck and as it stands it is an unassuming deck people underestimate until the combo hammer drops.

23 Land                                               23 Spells
3 Glacial Fortress                                 4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Seachrome Coast                             4 Oblivion Ring
2 Moorland Haunt                                4 Feeling of Dread
2 Vault of the Archangel                      4 Lingering Souls
6 Iands                                                4 Ponder
7 Plains                                                3 Sleep
                                                         
11 Creatures                                        3 Planeswalker
4 Solemn Simulacrum                            3 Venser, The Sojourner
4 Stonehorn Dignitary
3 Sunblast Angel
That green deck has a lot of great things, but the glut of 3CC cards being the important cards feels really awkward.
From the cheapest prices at bidwicket.com, assuming a $5 shipping charge and that basic lands are free:

Silverheart Stompy

Estimated total cost: 55.55
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim: 2 @ 0.03; total 0.06
4 Birds of Paradise: 4 @ 3.19; total 12.76
4 Champion of Lambholt: 4 @ 1.19; total 4.76
4 Dungrove Elder: 4 @ 3.25; total 13.0
4 Llanowar Elves: 4 @ 0.07; total 0.28
3 Predator Ooze: 3 @ 1.19; total 3.57
4 Strangleroot Geist: 4 @ 0.55; total 2.2
1 Ulvenwald Tracker: 1 @ 0.95; total 0.95
4 Wolfir Silverheart: 4 @ 0.85; total 3.4
3 Dismember: 3 @ 1.49; total 4.47
2 Prey Upon: 2 @ 0.02; total 0.04
3 Ranger's Guile: 3 @ 0.02; total 0.06

Restoration Hardware

Estimated total cost: 76.16
4 Phyrexia's Core: 4 @ 0.06; total 0.24
4 Blade Splicer: 4 @ 2.55; total 10.2
4 Stonehorn Dignitary: 4 @ 0.02; total 0.08
3 Sunblast Angel: 3 @ 0.5; total 1.5
4 Day of Judgment: 4 @ 2.1; total 8.4
3 Ichor Wellspring: 3 @ 0.02; total 0.06
4 Mycosynth Wellspring: 4 @ 0.02; total 0.08
2 Oblivion Ring: 2 @ 0.74; total 1.48
4 Timely Reinforcements: 4 @ 1.38; total 5.52
4 Venser, the Sojourner: 4 @ 6.35; total 25.4
3 Restoration Angel: 3 @ 4.4; total 13.2
my vote is for that tandem deck you made 2 weeks ago. i'd like to see that deck with red creatures like goblin fireslinger, pyreheart wolf, and/or hellrider

as for the acceptable choices im with the WU one altough you went way over the budget, i mean im okay when you use 5$ cards like hellrider or double lands because just assuming that people probably have atleast four and if they're not in the right color then they can just trade for diferent color combo. but when you put 4 planeswalkers into a BUDGET deck it realy bugs me
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my vote is for that tandem deck you made 2 weeks ago. i'd like to see that deck with red creatures like goblin fireslinger, pyreheart wolf, and/or hellrider

as for the acceptable choices im with the WU one altough you went way over the budget, i mean im okay when you use 5$ cards like hellrider or double lands because just assuming that people probably have atleast four and if they're not in the right color then they can just trade for diferent color combo. but when you put 4 planeswalkers into a BUDGET deck it realy bugs me



Venser is a $5 planeswalker, $8 if you buy him on demand in NM condition from Star City.  The guy who posted literally RIGHT above you even posted a store where you can pick him up for $6.  If you're okay with Hellrider, you're okay with Venser.

I mean, seriously people.  It's one thing to complain when he legitimately posts decks that are like $150, but this deck can easily be slapped together for half of what even SamLL posted.  You're complaining based on percieved values, and that's just wrong.
$76.16 for a deck that can at least stand it's ground at an average FNM is pretty cheap. A playset of Geists (Delver) or Elesh Norns (Frites) costs more than that already, a playset of Primevals cost nearly as much, and the walkers in Esper alone cost like triple that entire deck. And that's only a small sample of competitive standard decks. If you people think this isn't budget then you're crazy. AND that 76.16 assumes you don't have traders or any of the cards already... who are you trying to kid? Plus Restoration Angel is still at prerelease prices, and is a release promo. Get off JvL's back, seriously, it's not easy to make reasonably strong decks with such financial constraints. My only gripe is actually the lack of suggestions for how to improve the decks, but even that isn't hard to figure out. Duals, some better CA engine than the Wellsprings, etc.
I have to agree with the guys saying that these decks are budget decks, considering that most decent decks out there cost well over $100 to create, I am surprised by the number of complaints. Plus, JVL has already listened to your feedback and improved his article's greatly by spreading his deck building out over a couple of weeks. You should be supporting and encouraging him for listening to your feedback not getting on his back about the price, when you obviously did not do any research as to the cost of the decks. Please, show him so respect and check the prices before complaining about them, and if you are not willing to spend $50 on a deck built from scratch then choose another hobby, as magic is obviously way to expensive for you.
Are people really complaining that this isn't a budget deck because of the -number- of rares in it?  Do you people really not realize that not all rares are priced the same?

Venser isn't used in anything, and we just got a Duel Deck with him in it.  The high-point NM price on Star City is $8, so you should be able to pick up a playset for like $20 easily, and that's without trading for any.

Sunblast Angel is a $0.50 rare that you can pick up 4-for-a-dollar in most places.

Restoration Angel is worth $5 preorder, but she's the freaking release promo, and judging by preorder prices is always a fool's errand anyway.  This is another card you can pick up for basically nothing.

The only rares worth anything in this deck are the Days and the Blade Splicers which are $2-3 a pop.  Everything else is common/uncommon.  If you spend more than $40 building this entire deck you got ripped off.  And if $40 isn't budget, then I'm sorry for you.

The Green deck isn't bad either.  Dungrove is $3 a pop and Predator Ooze, Wolfir Silverheart, Champion of Lambholt, and Ulvenvald Tracker are all sub-$2.  The only pricey card is Birds of Paradise, but they've been printed so many times it's almost irrelevant.  This whole deck costs like $20 to make.


I've seen Pauper decks that cost more then these.  Seriously people, there is no way you can complain that these aren't budget.



$8 x 4 Vensers is $32 plus shipping. $0.50 x 4 is $2. Assuming the price of something is going to go down to support your arguement is flawed. It is just as possible that the Angel will jump from $5 to $10.
 I agree that the number of rares shouldn't matter, just the price. But, your math just doesn't add up. :-)

Look at the comments from people who priced everything. I personally feel $40 should be the end of budget. None of these decks will EVER be tournament worthy, simply because they can't compete with the rediculous prices that Wizards has allowed top tier decks to reach. The green deck looks to come close to my line, so I'm fine with it. The W/u is a little higher from my looking, but not as crazy as his old decks.

My biggest complaint is his reliance on Dismember. The prices here are not too over budget to warrent a complaint.

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

I remember the days when I would see an exciting deck here and think, "Man, I have to get that deck!" And that could happen, because a) the decks weren't that expensive and b) the decks were actually exciting.

Now, these decks being expensive isn't 100% JVL's fault - Magic isn't exactly the way it was 4 years ago, after all - but this is pretty ridiculous. I don't know why I even bother to read the articles any more.
I've been highly critical of Jacob in the past, but at some point you've got to cut a guy some slack. Sure, he doesn't build within the budget that we've had from earlier BoaB columnists. However, the decks he tries to build are (or should be) more competitive than their decks. Also, we live in a different time, the era of Mythic rares. It's much harder to build on a budget these days than it was in the past.

For me, what matters most is that he's evolving his decks and listening to his readers. I hope the current trend (of fewer but better decks) continues.
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i really like having a poll at the end, i hope to see more like this
$8 x 4 Vensers is $32 plus shipping. $0.50 x 4 is $2. Assuming the price of something is going to go down to support your arguement is flawed. It is just as possible that the Angel will jump from $5 to $10.
 I agree that the number of rares shouldn't matter, just the price. But, your math just doesn't add up. :-)



It doesn't add up because you didn't actually read what I was saying.  $8 is the -max- price for Venser on Star City, a website notorious for overcharging for cards.  If you can't pick up a set of Vensers for around $20 or less, you are getting cheated.  And I was pointing out that Sunblast Angel is so cheap that most places will give you a deal on them.

And again, release promo.  There will be TONS of the Angel floating around right around the time high preorder prices tend to start dipping.
Here's my CHEAPEST built deck right now. Based off of one of his decks.

Show
'Fright v4


Sideboard:
[deck]4 Autumn's Veil
2 Dismember
3 Doom Blade
4 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Swamp
1 Think Twice[/deck]


It does crappy. Doom blade is because auto-losing to Elesh Norn is not fun. Midrange cost on TCGplayer is $44.85.

Most expensive (built) deck:

Show

Hatebrew v5
Main Deck:
[deck]4 Acidic Slime
2 Balefire Dragon
4 Invader Parasite
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Wall of Tanglecord

3 Beast Within
3 Into the Maw of Hell
4 Rampant Growth

4 Copperline Gorge
6 Forest
4 Kessig Wolf Run
6 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag[/deck]

Sideboard:
[deck]2 Ancient Grudge
4 Galvanic Blast
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Slagstorm
4 Tunnel Ignus[/deck]


It's actually pretty decent. None of these cards are hard to acquire (with the exception of the Beast Withins), and yet what does it cost? $106.49 midrange on TCGplayer.

Price isn't everything, is what I'm trying to say. If this came up in a BoaB article, would you go off on his *beep* because the deck costs more than $100? I wouldn't, and not just because I already have it. All the cards are cards that players are GLAD to get out of their binders (with the exception of the Slagstorms, and if you don't have a playset of slagstorm and are even moderately competitive, WTF are you doing?). The only change I want to make is Birds over Elves.
Here's my CHEAPEST built deck right now. Based off of one of his decks.

Show
'Fright v4


Sideboard:
[deck]4 Autumn's Veil
2 Dismember
3 Doom Blade
4 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Swamp
1 Think Twice[/deck]


It does crappy. Doom blade is because auto-losing to Elesh Norn is not fun. Midrange cost on TCGplayer is $44.85.

Most expensive (built) deck:

Show

Hatebrew v5
Main Deck:
[deck]4 Acidic Slime
2 Balefire Dragon
4 Invader Parasite
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Wall of Tanglecord

3 Beast Within
3 Into the Maw of Hell
4 Rampant Growth

4 Copperline Gorge
6 Forest
4 Kessig Wolf Run
6 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag[/deck]

Sideboard:
[deck]2 Ancient Grudge
4 Galvanic Blast
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Slagstorm
4 Tunnel Ignus[/deck]


It's actually pretty decent. None of these cards are hard to acquire (with the exception of the Beast Withins), and yet what does it cost? $106.49 midrange on TCGplayer.

Price isn't everything, is what I'm trying to say. If this came up in a BoaB article, would you go off on his *beep* because the deck costs more than $100? I wouldn't, and not just because I already have it. All the cards are cards that players are GLAD to get out of their binders (with the exception of the Slagstorms, and if you don't have a playset of slagstorm and are even moderately competitive, WTF are you doing?). The only change I want to make is Birds over Elves.


Ever heard about casual play?
BoaB used to focus on casual more, making 100$ decks will offend casual players.
Now im not going to complain about it, coz the column is going a realy good way with a 2 week deck evolvement and now even a poll and information on why certain cards are in the deck. This is way more interesting then the budget part. 
I just think we should be talking more on the decks, becase honestly as someone hoping back into the tournament scene; a deck based off a $6 mythic is something we should all be celebrating.  I was looking to spend around the value of the decklists posted in this article -- sorry to those casual players, but I think if you want to enjoy FNM you need something starting off with a minimum power level. I like where we are starting, but my thoughts are as follows.

I think Esper control is in a good spot to meet the devler challenge and it'd be a pretty easy metagame shift to shut down a deck like this from tezzerit control, so I'd like to see how to overcome the state of standard from the green perspective, and I'm sure even casual players would enjoy as well; even if they might not care about cards like Cavern of Souls.


Ever heard about casual play?
BoaB used to focus on casual more, making 100$ decks will offend casual players.
Now im not going to complain about it, coz the column is going a realy good way with a 2 week deck evolvement and now even a poll and information on why certain cards are in the deck. This is way more interesting then the budget part. 


Yes. I have heard of casual play. When the only store in my 100,000 person town that hosted casual events closed, I lost out on casual play. The people there do not live close enough together to make getting together practical, so... EVERY SINGLE DECK that I make or run has to have at least a shot at winning 33% of it's games at the local, uber competitive FNM. There are people there that will not shy away from dropping $1000 on a deck if it means they'll win. ~1/3 of the people there are regular attendees of PTQ's.

So, I'm not a casual player anymore. I'd prefer to be casual, but it's impossible to get casual games set up.