Where are the counterspells?

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I'm noticing a distinct lack of me being able to counter target spell in this set.  That's troubling, what if I don't want you to take an extra turn or have an 8/8 flying indestructible?
Then I guess you should keep casting Mana Leak and Dissipate, because they're still solid counterspells.  Also I think we're expecting an old friend in that regard in M13 or Rav2.0.

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
Whats the point in wasting space in the set on counterspells when Cavern of Souls is going to be in every deck?

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this is only partially sarcasm
 
~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
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56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Then I guess you should keep casting Mana Leak and Dissipate, because they're still solid counterspells.  Also I think we're expecting an old friend in that regard in M13 or Rav2.0.



Well you can't exactly cast Mana Leak or Dissipate in AVR Limited.
Then I guess you should keep casting Mana Leak and Dissipate, because they're still solid counterspells.  Also I think we're expecting an old friend in that regard in M13 or Rav2.0.



Well you can't exactly cast Mana Leak or Dissipate in AVR Limited.



This
Then I guess you should keep casting Mana Leak and Dissipate, because they're still solid counterspells.  Also I think we're expecting an old friend in that regard in M13 or Rav2.0.



If you are referring to Remand, then you will likely be disappointed.  See Zac Hill's article here: www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a... right below the picture of Mana Leak.
I'm praying for a Cancel with Miracle 0.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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There are still about 18 blue cards to be spoiled
They will most likely be revealed during the bulk common spoilers.
I'm praying for a Cancel with Miracle 0.

that will not really work
proud member of the 2011 community team
I'm praying for a Cancel with Miracle 0.

that will not really work


Of course it does, you just need to do some more effort for it.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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Not sure counterspells are meant for this meta. I mean, graveyards are used by plenty of decks, and even those not hell bent on using graveyards still have flashback costs. I think you want to exile cards, so dissipate is kinda good...for 3. But some cards can now be cast from exile...so...why use counter magic when removal and yard destruction is where control should be playing right now ?
My guess is they want a counter-free Limited environment.  For Constructed, there's still plenty of good counterspells.  Or at the very least one.

Or maybe they just haven't been spoiled yet.

I'm praying for a Cancel with Miracle 0.

that will not really work


Of course it does, you just need to do some more effort for it.



Get a looter out (the newly spoiled red guy would work), and some way to repeatably put a card from your graveyard on top of your library.


If only Chimney Imp said "target player"...


OK...  So have your 0-cost miracle counter in hand and any looter (without a random discard) in play.  Have Conch Horn, Glissa, the Traitor with a Wolfhunter's Quiver attached and Charmbreaker Devils in play, then Donate a Bitterblossom to your opponent.  Then use Bojuka Bog to clear the donate from your graveyard.


Now you can always counter the first spell your opponent plays on their turn.


Eat your heart out, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

Then I guess you should keep casting Mana Leak and Dissipate, because they're still solid counterspells.  Also I think we're expecting an old friend in that regard in M13 or Rav2.0.



Well you can't exactly cast Mana Leak or Dissipate in AVR Limited.



This


A)  You did not specify any reference to AVR Limited.

B)  Does your Limited strategy really revolve around access to counterspells?

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
There was that version of Summoner's Bane that as spoiled.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

So we can assume there's at least 1 counterspell, with possibly one more generic counter tied to one of the set mechanics. I agree that Miracle wouldn't really work so possibly a counterspell that involves flickering...
MTGS doesn't have it listed, and it was spoiled a long time ago.  Is that just their mistake or is it not actually confirmed?
MTGS doesn't have it listed, and it was spoiled a long time ago.  Is that just their mistake or is it not actually confirmed?



I hadn't noticed that MTGS didn't have it listed... though it's the only card I've seen so far that produces Blue Spirit tokens (which HAVE been confirmed)

So put it down as a pretty solid maybe.
MTGS doesn't have it listed, and it was spoiled a long time ago.  Is that just their mistake or is it not actually confirmed?


It came from the same source that originally spoiled / leaked the 1/1 red Human tokens, the 1/1 blue flying Spirit tokens, and Thatcher Revolt. I'd say there's a 99% chance it's real.
Hopefully the learned their lesson that Counterspells ruin this game!!

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I hate to tell ya but I think even M13 will be low on counterspells. In fact I'm about 90% sure that even Mana Leak will not be reprinted there (maybe later once they've toyed with the environment a bit)...
The game might have hit the counter spell wall.

Innistrad only has 3 counter spells so far.
Dissipate good for dealing with graveyard shenanigans.
Frightful Delusion a mana tax, that makes the opponent discard.
Lost in the Mist counter a spell and bounce a permanent.

Any cheaper and the Moon Planeswalker would be broken.

4 mana that can counter a spell or activated ability.

3 mana to can counter an activated ability and seals it for as long as long it remains on the battlefield.

4 or 5 mana that counters a spell then you can add a card from the graveyard to the hand with a CMC of X or less, where X is equal to the CMC of the spell that got countered.
I agree, I think Mana Leak was blue's Lightning Bolt.  A simple yet powerful spell brought back for a few years.  I wouldn't be surprised if we see the return of a similar white/green/black spell in M13.  Swords to Plowshares anyone?
The game might have hit the counter spell wall. Innistrad only has 3 counter spells so far. Dissipate good for dealing with graveyard shenanigans. Frightful Delusion a mana tax, that makes the opponent discard. Lost in the Mist counter a spell and bounce a permanent.



You forgot Bone to Ash

I can see them ending Mana Leak.  I can think of efficient-ish 2-mana spells like Negate and Deprive staying, though.
Hopefully the learned their lesson that Counterspells ruin this game!!

They haven't learned that lesson because it's completely untrue.
I would love to see counter spells fade away in standard! Nobody has mutual fun in a match were only one person see's spells resolve.
I would love to see counter spells fade away in standard! Nobody has mutual fun in a match were only one person see's spells resolve.

That's not how Standard works.  Even versus heavy-blue control decks most of your spells will resolve.  The ridiculously over-the-top draw-go decks are not part of Standard.  I don't know why people think they are.
I would love to see counter spells fade away in standard! Nobody has mutual fun in a match were only one person see's spells resolve.

That's not how Standard works.  Even versus heavy-blue control decks most of your spells will resolve.  The ridiculously over-the-top draw-go decks are not part of Standard.  I don't know why people think they are.


Because I go 4-1 with them. :P

Anyway, eat your heart out OP.  You have three counterspells in this set so far.




catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
Zach Hill of Development has expressly said that Development believes the game is best if you're just trading juggernauts like Primeval Titan etc. They want you to play bombs and address opponents bombs with bombs. They don't believe the ability to stop an opponent doing what they want to do is 'fun'.
If Blue has to tone down on the cheap Counter Spells, then they better get some increase in dealing with permanents.

I want to have a counter ability spell that can stop the opponent from using that permanent ability again, beyond the rest of the turn.
I can see them ending Mana Leak.



From reading Friday's Latest Developments column (4/20, the one that spoiled Cavern of Souls) I was under the impression that that is what will happen. The author said something like "Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era", implying that it is overpowered.
Yep, Zac Hill's position is "Mana Leak is too powerful, but here, have a six-casting cost card that instantly wins you the game if it resolves. That's not too powerful."
Zach Hill of Development has expressly said that Development believes the game is best if you're just trading juggernauts like Primeval Titan etc. They want you to play bombs and address opponents bombs with bombs. They don't believe the ability to stop an opponent doing what they want to do is 'fun'.

I agree with that, despite playing blue more than any other colour
proud member of the 2011 community team
Welcome to my hell.


-Proud land destruction player.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Welcome to my hell.

-Proud land destruction player.

yes, playing against LD is my hell
how did you know? ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
...and they aren't reprinting the only counterspell in standard that's any good. 



You do know... Even though Zac Hill is the lead dev for M13, that doesn't mean he has complete control over the final product, and I happen to think fairly highly of Mark Gottlieb, Doug Beyer and Graeme Hopkins. So whether Leak is reprinted or not, I suspect that permission will be viable, if not as much of a heel-to-the-skull as it used to be.
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Zac Hill has some really bizarre ideas about development, and since no one at Wizards is telling him to shut up with his comments on twitter, I'm guessing that he's getting most of his wishes.



I really don't like the way the game has gone with the last few sets, or the way that limited has played out.  People raved about ISD limited, but I never understood it.  Far and away the two best limited archetypes in triple ISD were about not interacting with your opponent.  G/W travel prep, where your goal was to drop two aggressive creatures and supersize them before your opponent could do anything at all, and the other was ignore what your opponent is doing and gain 30 life and put 20 spiders into play.  Yes, it was fun to do these things yourself, but absolutely miserable to play against (which is I believe their entire argument for getting rid of good discard, LD, countermagic, and powerful non-creature spells).  Seriously, there was nothing more frustrating than drafting a solid U/W fliers deck, and watching your opponent put 9 spiders into play the turn before you can kill them, and realize that you have no outs.



The trend of constructed has been to print ridiculous creatures that are difficult to interact with:  Titans, Geist, Undying guys, Lingering Souls.  Also not very fun. 
The plain and simple truth is that Zac Hill is absolutely right. The majority of people who buy magic merchandise (I'm not talking aboot buying a single here and there and borrowing from friends, I'm talking aboot cracking boosters packs and boxes...the thing that nets them real money.) are the battlecruiser-magic players. There is a reason why Rise of the Eldrazi and Legions are the highest selling sets in magic history. Is it any surprise that the game is shifting more and more towards what the battlecruiser magic player wants?

Nope.  

Stop the H4TE

Zach Hill of Development has expressly said that Development believes the game is best if you're just trading juggernauts like Primeval Titan etc. They want you to play bombs and address opponents bombs with bombs. They don't believe the ability to stop an opponent doing what they want to do is 'fun'.

I agree with that, despite playing blue more than any other colour



My opponent wants to win. I want to stop them from doing that. Does that mean that counter decks are "unfun"? No, it means that blue needs a way to win that doesn't involve their own over-costed leviathan / octopus / kraken of the set beating down green's undercosted treefolk / elf / serpent or white's minion army. Every deck type has a weakness, and that's that. Even permission, even sligh, even combo, even horde, even land destruction, all of them.

Obvously cards like capsize should stay in the past, but that doesn't mean that counter and permission spells need to totally disappear or become so overcosted that they're unplayable. Heck, bring back the land destruction, too! They're valid archetypes and methods of winning and players shouldn't be punished for liking them.
The plain and simple truth is that Zac Hill is absolutely right. The majority of people who buy magic merchandise (I'm not talking aboot buying a single here and there and borrowing from friends, I'm talking aboot cracking boosters packs and boxes...the thing that nets them real money.) are the battlecruiser-magic players. There is a reason why Rise of the Eldrazi and Legions are the highest selling sets in magic history. Is it any surprise that the game is shifting more and more towards what the battlecruiser magic player wants?

Nope.  



Your stats are wrong. Mirrodin was the best selling Magic set of all time.
www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of...

Relevant article.



I am a player who DESPISES land destruction. It is literally the single most unfun experience I can ever have playing a game of MtG, because unlike counterspells and discard (both of which allow you to play around or through them), there is nothing you can do against a dedicated land destruction deck; if they get their Turn 2 LD off and follow up, you don't even get a chance to play.

When the UR LD sorcery deck was in the format post-Ravnica, I would routinely have games against it where I never got to even CAST a single spell before they killed me with a 10/10 Magnivore.

And even I think they're nerfing LD a little bit hard. 
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