Sensei's Divining Top

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I've noticed just recently that Sensei's Divining Top is selling for 15 buckeroos on the internet. I did not realize they were going for at much as a promo Wurmcoil Engine and I have 3 of it from Champions of Kamigawa.  Is this occuring because of the upcoming set's new mechanic Miracle or because it's just an awesome card?

There are so many applications with this card especially since you can pay it's first ability at instant speed.  Now with Miracle, I can pay this before my draw step, put a miracle card on top of my deck and hit someone for 5 damage for 1, or take an extra turn for two, or use one of the other insane miracle cards.  Does this mechanic break this card, or does it just make it 1000000 times better?  I'm not sure which.

Without a doubt I'm making a deck with the Top when Avacyn comes out but I can't decide whether to take it multi-color or mono.  Anyone else planning a miracle/instant deck?
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Top is just generally a very good card. Commonly seen with Counterbalance, and considered by many to be an EDH staple.

Yxoque wrote:
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Why did you post this in Future Set Speculation? Pretty sure this thread belongs elsewhere...
FSS is for the most part the accepted place if you want to include spoilers in the post, even if there isn't much speculation. But then again, there isn't much speculation with the hundreds of ICD's here either.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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Top is just generally a very bad card and is not an EDH staple.



Fixed

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No, you are just terrible. Bad cards don't get banned unless they break the rules somehow, Shahrazad etc. (If it wasn't played, then time constraints wouldn't be an issue.)

Yxoque wrote:
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It's cheap, generates draw quality and you can integrate it in almost every deck there is.
It's almost immune to removal and is even played in Vintage Championships on a regular basis.

Don't see how it can possible be a "very bad card".

The price has nothing to do with the miracle mechanic though, it was like that before.
Top is just generally a very bad card and is not an EDH staple.



Fixed




By 'fixed' did you mean 'broke'? Top isn't anywhere close to a bad card.
Top is just generally a very bad card and is not an EDH staple.



Fixed



Care to shed some light onto why you believe this card is bad?  All evidence points to the very much contrary.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Why did you post this in Future Set Speculation? Pretty sure this thread belongs elsewhere...



Not really.  This thread is talking about the affect a FUTURE set and a FUTURE mechanic have had on a card.

Thanks for the answers! I wasn't sure if it was already high in value or if Avacyn helped it get there.  I guess it being in one of the Vault decks should have hinted at the answer for me but I thought I'd ask.  I can't wait to abuse this card for all it's worth.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Top is an incredible card, especially in Commander
combine it with Future Sight or Magus of the Future to take it to absurd power.
": Draw a card" is bonkers
proud member of the 2011 community team
Why did you post this in Future Set Speculation? Pretty sure this thread belongs elsewhere...



Not really.  This thread is talking about the affect a FUTURE set and a FUTURE mechanic have had on a card.

Thanks for the answers! I wasn't sure if it was already high in value or if Avacyn helped it get there.  I guess it being in one of the Vault decks should have hinted at the answer for me but I thought I'd ask.  I can't wait to abuse this card for all it's worth.



...because you're asking for input on a particular card's "Combo & Trick", and trying to abuse it by comboing with cards in a standalone set...
Still don't see the relevance, but whatevs
Why did you post this in Future Set Speculation? Pretty sure this thread belongs elsewhere...



Not really.  This thread is talking about the affect a FUTURE set and a FUTURE mechanic have had on a card.

Thanks for the answers! I wasn't sure if it was already high in value or if Avacyn helped it get there.  I guess it being in one of the Vault decks should have hinted at the answer for me but I thought I'd ask.  I can't wait to abuse this card for all it's worth.



...because you're asking for input on a particular card's "Combo & Trick", and trying to abuse it by comboing with cards in a standalone set...
Still don't see the relevance, but whatevs

Because the standalone set you mentioned is... and drumroll... A future set.  Future means it's unreleased, therefore it's something that hasn't release yet; this means it will be in the future which also means it's a future set.  If I wanted to go and spoil a future set and a future set's mechanics, I would have gone to "Combo & Trick".  However, I did not spoil it because I didn't want to spoil a future set and a future set's mechanics to a board of people who may not want to know about said future set and the future set's mechanics.

Future Count: 11 times.

You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Top is just generally a very bad card and is not an EDH staple.



Fixed



Care to shed some light onto why you believe this card is bad?  All evidence points to the very much contrary.

AVHer, meet Zokorad.  I think he's twelve.  Or retarded.  Or both.  Look at some of his posts.  Just gloss over his stuff and try not to laugh.  I dare you...



I don't know if I dare.  Perhaps one day when I have a few hours to kill laughing I'll take a gander.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
I first started playing at the tail end of Rise of the Eldrazi, and I inherited some kamigawa cards from a friend of mine who was quitting. Didn't know this card was worth anything, and when a guy offered me a Kazandu Tuskcaller for 3 (THREE!) of these, I took it.
This is Card Disadvantage.
Its like sometimes to keep even on Cards you need to use it like a Ponder without the Shuffle Clause each turn for 2 Mana.
Or 1 Mana each turn for an exchange of a 59 Card Deck.
Not that good.

There was a time that I copied a EDH Decklist on Tappedout.net on Riku that had this card guess what?? The bad performance of Top was totally displeasing. I learned my lesson: Top is a Terrible Card!!

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Id pay 10 Cents for this and feel like it was a big mistake to do so.

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it still goes in most Commander decks for me
you just want to reduce the price so you can buy it for cheap ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
This is Card Disadvantage.
Its like sometimes to keep even on Cards you need to use it like a Ponder without the Shuffle Clause each turn for 2 Mana.
Or 1 Mana each turn for an exchange of a 59 Card Deck.
Not that good.

There was a time that I copied a EDH Decklist on Tappedout.net on Riku that had this card guess what?? The bad performance of Top was totally displeasing. I learned my lesson: Top is a Terrible Card!!


What?

No, you are just terrible. Bad cards don't get banned unless they break the rules somehow, Shahrazad etc. (If it wasn't played, then time constraints wouldn't be an issue.)


I would like to note that while Sensei's Divining Top is a fantastic card, power wasn't even a consideration for its banning. Top was banned because it brought games to time. This may be what your italiczed text refers to, but I thought I had might as well clarify that anyway. (Shahrazad was also only banned for time issues and people trolling the crap out of tournaments. Chaos Orb would serve as a better example.)

Also, other cards were banned for sheer popularity reasons. Mental Misstep is the best example of this. Another good example is actually Affinity.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Yes you can buy your 15$ Tops while I laugh at you .

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I would like to note that while Sensei's Divining Top is a fantastic card, power wasn't even a consideration for its banning. Top was banned because it brought games to time. This may be what your italiczed text refers to, but I thought I had might as well clarify that anyway. (Shahrazad was also only banned for time issues and people trolling the crap out of tournaments. Chaos Orb would serve as a better example.)


Yeah, it was mostly there so the counterargument of "It wasn't banned for being broken" wouldn't come up.

This is Card Disadvantage.
Its like sometimes to keep even on Cards you need to use it like a Ponder without the Shuffle Clause each turn for 2 Mana.
Or 1 Mana each turn for an exchange of a 59 Card Deck.
Not that good.


You do realize you can tap Top to draw a card, right? Which means that it's a cantrip. Which means that it's not card disadvantage.

There was a time that I copied a EDH Decklist on Tappedout.net on Riku that had this card guess what?? The bad performance of Top was totally displeasing. I learned my lesson: Top is a Terrible Card!!


You're reaching a new level when you're netdecking EDH decks.
Anyway, get this. Let's compare profiles for a little second. You joined, like, half a year ago or so. I've been here for over four years. My post count is 24 times or so that of yours. While this in no way means I am a better player, you're going to have to back up your statement when saying nobody considers it in EDH. I've read upon enough threads around various forums to know that it's a popular card, even if I personally don't consider it a staple.

Even then, SDT have seen considerable amount of play among numerous formats, and is famous enough to get reprinted in FTV: Relics. The only statement you have against its power is being card disadvantage. Here's a little secret: Black Lotus is too.

Also, stop there. No, I'm not saying SDT is as good as Black Lotus.
Okay, now you can go.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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I stopped Netdecking EDH Lists.
But top returns to top of Library (pun) meaning you have to pay the 1 and repeat.
Black Lotus Produces Enough Mana to Balance out the Card Disadvantage. ps: Lotus Petal sucks. 1 Mana is Bad for the effect. 2 is Broken. It however took me a while to figure out that Black Lotus was Broken. I did not ever test it but it enables so many Turn 1 or 0 Wins. ps: Modern has a Turn 1 Win Combo but it is totally unreliable. Ive tested top. Results: Power Rank: 0/10.

0: Needs a Big Buff in Power Level for anything.
1: Needs Moderate improvement for Limited.
2: Not really good enough for Limited.
3: Last Priority Playable in Limited.
4: Limited Playable. Not very good in Constructed.
5: Awesome in Limited. Slightly bad for Constucted.
6: Kinda Constructed Playable.
7: Constructed Playable.
8: Constructed Bomby.
9: Kinda Broken.
10: Broken Totally.

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Since you've already claimed that Lotus Petal and SDT is bad, are there any other cards you would like to enlighten me on? Like Tarmogoyf, Necropotence, possibly Brainstorm?

Still not sure how you explain Top being a consistant player through magic's tournament history. Is the competitive scene of magic just made out of scrubs?

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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Tarmogoyf(8), Brainstorm (8), and Necropotence (9) are all good:

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I dont think you have seen the power of SDT
"SDT is bad" is the first impression of this card for many players, including me.  However, this card is EXTREMELY powerful when used correctly.
First of all, this card enables insane card quality.  Compared to ponder, this card is almost strictly better.  You pay one to rearrange the top three cards of your deck, and if you really really want one of those cards, you can put the top back and draw it.  Even though it costs one mana to play this before you use its abilities, it is colourless, and that just make it playable in so many more decks.  Since ponder is such a powerful card in formats like modern, SDT is no doubt an equally powerful if not more powerful card.
Secondly,  SDT synergizes amazingly with shuffling effects, provided by cards like fetchlands and Squadron Hawks.  You don't like the three cards you see? No problem! Crack a fetchland and you get three new ones to choose from!  In a game where getting card A and card B makes a huge difference, this card is just amazing.
Lastly, I especially like this card because you can use it to continuously manipulate your top deck.  I have a casual deck that uses the top card of the deck with cards such as and Oracle of Mul Daya (future miracle cards will make it onto the list), and SDT is amazing in there.

In EDH, any colourless repeatable card quality effect is a staple, such asCrystal Ball.  This card is better than crystal ball so it is definitely a staple. 
Since you've already claimed that Lotus Petal and SDT is bad, are there any other cards you would like to enlighten me on? Like Tarmogoyf, Necropotence, possibly Brainstorm?

Still not sure how you explain Top being a consistant player through magic's tournament history. Is the competitive scene of magic just made out of scrubs?

I think you guys are getting trolled here. Just saying. 
I think you guys are getting trolled here. Just saying. 


The word "troll" is thrown around too much. "Troll", used correctly, would mean that this is intentional. Zokorad is just Zokorad.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
I think you guys are getting trolled here. Just saying. 


The word "troll" is thrown around too much. "Troll", used correctly, would mean that this is intentional. Zokorad is just Zokorad.

Wow, I guess I just haven't seen enough of his stuff then. It seems outrageously trolling to me, in the correct usage of the word.

That said, I'll take your word for it, but someone who comes out and says that both the Top and Lotus Petal are somehow bad cards is, frankly, quantifiably wrong... and so obviously so, that it seemed like it was just to get a reaction.

If he had said that they weren't his style, or he never got much use out of them I'd be fine. Hell, I feel like some good stuff is overrated. I'd reckon that we all do. But that would be like me saying that Geist of St. Traft is a bad card. It isn't, demonstrably so.
Wow, I guess I just haven't seen enough of his stuff then. It seems outrageously trolling to me, in the correct usage of the word.

That said, I'll take your word for it, but someone who comes out and says that both the Top and Lotus Petal are somehow bad cards is, frankly, quantifiably wrong... and so obviously so, that it seemed like it was just to get a reaction.

If he had said that they weren't his style, or he never got much use out of them I'd be fine. Hell, I feel like some good stuff is overrated. I'd reckon that we all do. But that would be like me saying that Geist of St. Traft is a bad card. It isn't, demonstrably so.


Yeah, that's really just him.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(Rehashed)_ICD:_The_Beast_of_Doomsday

He's got a whole damn franchise of those things, too. 
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
Wow, I guess I just haven't seen enough of his stuff then. It seems outrageously trolling to me, in the correct usage of the word.

That said, I'll take your word for it, but someone who comes out and says that both the Top and Lotus Petal are somehow bad cards is, frankly, quantifiably wrong... and so obviously so, that it seemed like it was just to get a reaction.

If he had said that they weren't his style, or he never got much use out of them I'd be fine. Hell, I feel like some good stuff is overrated. I'd reckon that we all do. But that would be like me saying that Geist of St. Traft is a bad card. It isn't, demonstrably so.


Yeah, that's really just him.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(Rehashed)_ICD:_The_Beast_of_Doomsday

He's got a whole damn franchise of those things, too. 

Wow. I guess if that's what you think the game should look like, then yeah, sure, why not - Lotus Petal is somehow not good enough.

Begs the question: why play the game is some of the best stuff ever printed is crap in your eyes? What kind of decks and so on do you play at that point? 
Just wow.

Let's say it's turn 3 of a match between you and I.  I have a Sensei's Divining Top on the battlefield and you have just cheated a Beast of Doomsday out of your library.  It is now the second main phase of your turn and I only have 2 plains to use because my other was tapped during my last turn.  Nothing I currently have in my hand is going to save me from your creature.  So during your turn I tap one of those mana for SDT's first ability to look at the top three of my deck.  I look up from the three cards with a smile, hope does exist!! I put them back in the order I want.

My turn begins and during my upkeep before my draw step I tap the SDT for it's second ability. I draw one card that can save me, one card that if I had not used SDT's instant-speed ability, I would not have seen until it was too late.  I hold up the first card I drew on my turn and with the flick of my wrist, I play Terminus for it's miracle cost.

Put all creatures on the bottom of their owners' libraries.

It's not targeting so the hexproof is not a factor.  With a growl you begrudgingly take up your Beast of Doomsday and carefully place it on the bottom of your library.  I live another day and all for a one cost colorless artifact with an instant-speed ability similar to, but better then (because of it's reuse) Ponder.

My ability to constantly see into the future of my deck gives me the upper hand because I choose how and when I'm going to draw my cards.

And yet.
"This is Card Disadvantage."

I agree that it's surprising and a bit odd that this card costs 15 dollars on the market right now; I would not pay that in 1,000,000 years.  However, it's abilities speak for itself.  If you have even half a brain you would at least acknowledge that it is at least a semi-useful card for what it is:

A ONE COST COLORLESS ARTIFACT THAT ALLOWS YOU TO PONDER YOUR DECK BUT CHOOSE WHEN AND WHAT YOU GET TO DRAW, AND YOU GET TO DO IT A BAJILLION TIMES IF YOU WANT TO, BECAUSE IT COSTS ONE COLORLESS MANA TO ACTIVATE IT'S FIRST ABILITY AND THE ARTIFACT STAYS ON THE FIELD FOR AS LONG AS NO ONE PLAYS A SHATTER!!! *breathes heavily*

Good day.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Aaaaaaaaand scene.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Aaaaaaaaand scene.


Last post != Best post
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
And yet.
"This is Card Disadvantage."

well, it is
kinda

you don't get more cards with the top, you just get better cards
it's cardquality advantage ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Well I suppose it is more cardquality advantage, but it's still not card disadvantage!!! ha ha ^^ It's not card advantage, but it's not card disadvantage either.
You are Red/Blue! Copies of Tobias Andrion so far: Twenty Three!! I'm Johnny/Spike. I want to win, but I want to win with fun and awesome deck ideas and/or great card combos.
Top is just generally a very bad card and is not an EDH staple.



Fixed




By 'fixed' did you mean 'broke'? Top isn't anywhere close to a bad card.



yup, he totally broke it. top is great. and i have had them in my edh decks. I have rack and library now, but in the beginning i had a top and it was very useful

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I agree it is a good card in the point of view as the one who plays it. But I think it fails as a cards that make the game unfun I hate when my opponent takes a 5 min turn to do almost nothing with the top. In my experience it just makes games long and not fun for an opposing players. The main reason we play is that we have fun if there was no more fun in the game than nobody wants to play. That is my 2 cents.
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I agree it is a good card in the point of view as the one who plays it. But I think it fails as a cards that make the game unfun I hate when my opponent takes a 5 min turn to do almost nothing with the top. In my experience it just makes games long and not fun for an opposing players. The main reason we play is that we have fun if there was no more fun in the game than nobody wants to play. That is my 2 cents.



well then you don't like the playing style, that's not the card's fault. there are plenty of other cards who do the same thing.

and fun is not the main reason all people play-sometimes it's only fun if they win
(not me but others)

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Hello, fine gentlemen and ladies.  Might I assert that High Tide is a weak card not worth playing ever?
I wasn't meaning to takeing it out on the card. I know it is great card that i have a play set of. in a tournament setting it is awesome but for local shops and causal game it is just going to make people not play magic with you.

I use to use the top+counterbalance and every time as soon as they knew what i was playing the would be a seigh of oh yea this is going to be fun. And then my friends didn't want to play anymore cause it was boring and so I had to not play with them for a while as a result.

I have a edh high tide deck that is fun
I am Red/Black
I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I agree it is a good card in the point of view as the one who plays it. But I think it fails as a cards that make the game unfun I hate when my opponent takes a 5 min turn to do almost nothing with the top. In my experience it just makes games long and not fun for an opposing players. The main reason we play is that we have fun if there was no more fun in the game than nobody wants to play. That is my 2 cents.



well then you don't like the playing style, that's not the card's fault. there are plenty of other cards who do the same thing.

and fun is not the main reason all people play-sometimes it's only fun if they win
(not me but others)




I have to agree that I don't like how slowly some people play with top.  The main thing is that there's no end to the number of times it can be activated, so it can really bog down gameplay.

I've encountered a few players that are very fast using top, and that's fine, but the majority I've played against do not fall into this group, sadly.

It's a pretty good card though, if you have  deck that can take advantage of it.