04/19/2012 FtL: "Mirrored Infinity"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's From the Lab article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.

And.... another useless rare for standard.  Awesome for EDH though.
So not only is it grossly overcosted, but won't turn the opponent's guys into a Kobold, outside of Donate shenanigans.
Oh hello Keiga, the Tide Star. What's that? You want to clear their board? Hmm okay.

Oh sorry Yosei, the Morning Star, I didn't see you there. Yes yes, I know you want to annoy them for forgetting about you too.

Ack, I'm so sorry Kokusho, the Evening Star! Please don't hurt me.



I can only hope we see another cycle like these dragons some day.
It probably says something about me that this is the first card I'm actually semi-excited for from this set.  It's janky enough to actually be affordable (price-wise; I refuse to spend more than about 5 bucks on 'most any card, and that only for the ones that are really necessary for my deck), and it seems almost good enough to be playable in Standard.  Yeah, yeah, the card sucks, I know, but it's *almost* there.  Shave 2 mana off of this and it'd be pretty insane, shave one mana off and it might see play.

It's still probably not enough to get me to play Constructed (haven't played that since...around the time Rise of the Eldrazi came out, I think), but maybe, just maybe, if I can scrounge up enough creatures with good CIP effects, and a few bombs to top the curve...eh, probably not, but maybe.  I do sort of wish they'd shaved a mana off, though.  It's not like it'd have been too overpowered at 5 rather than 6.
Could be good with Trinket Mage or Ranger of Eos and a bunch of Ornithopters, Shield Spheres, Phyrexian Walkers, and Memnites.
Finally a use for Cylian Sunsinger !!!

Yeah color-intensive four color deck....

Cool card though but one of those that it's so complicated that ppl would make so many errors forgetting what is what... Awesome for MTGO, though!
How about putting it on any of the mass token producers like Myr Battlesphere or Deranged Hermit? I'd be happy to play a BoP and get 5 creatures for 1 mana.. You could end up with a sizable army of stupidly large squirrels in a very short period of time, or simply attack once with the myr and insta-gib your opponent.

Diregraf Captain: You reallllllllly don't want any of my creatures to die if this happens.. Drogskol Captain: Hexproof army of very large flyers heading your way.

Noxious Ghoul + Zombie Infestation = an instant speed, repeatable, one-sided board wipe that gets around protection/indestructibility..  

Dare I say Priest of Titania?  How about teaming it up with Craterhoof Behemoth O_O;; (I can see excessively large trampling armies heading my way.)  Also from AVR, Soul of the Harvest: You could very quickly draw out your deck and have a bunch of 6/6 tramplers with this.

Drop it onto a Sun Titan and rez your entire graveyard every time you play a creature or attack.

Patron Wizard = Opponent rereads this card, then concedes XD 
Grand Architect + 2 CC artifact creatures = MASSIVE amounts of mana to spend on artifact spells/abilities.

Playing against POD?  Drop this on your opponent's Elesh Norn, and wipe his board plus Elesh dies to legend rule.

For some severely headache inducement, try animating an artifact/enchantment and turn your creatures into copies of those >_<;; (EX: Animate Mindslaver > every elf you play becomes a turn your opponent doesn't play lol)

The only thing I can see holding this card back IS the casting cost..  5U is a bit high for an easily countered spell but it does seem like it could be fun, and there may be some way yet to be revealed to cheat it into play sooner, so let's not give up on it just yet. ^^
How about putting it on any of the mass token producers like Myr Battlesphere or Deranged Hermit? I'd be happy to play a BoP and get 5 creatures for 1 mana.. You could end up with a sizable army of stupidly large squirrels in a very short period of time, or simply attack once with the myr and insta-gib your opponent.

Diregraf Captain: You reallllllllly don't want any of my creatures to die if this happens.. Drogskol Captain: Hexproof army of very large flyers heading your way.

Noxious Ghoul + Zombie Infestation = an instant speed, repeatable, one-sided board wipe that gets around protection/indestructibility..  

Dare I say Priest of Titania?  How about teaming it up with Craterhoof Behemoth O_O;; (I can see excessively large trampling armies heading my way.)  Also from AVR, Soul of the Harvest: You could very quickly draw out your deck and have a bunch of 6/6 tramplers with this.

Drop it onto a Sun Titan and rez your entire graveyard every time you play a creature or attack.

Patron Wizard = Opponent rereads this card, then concedes XD 
Grand Architect + 2 CC artifact creatures = MASSIVE amounts of mana to spend on artifact spells/abilities.

Playing against POD?  Drop this on your opponent's Elesh Norn, and wipe his board plus Elesh dies to legend rule.

For some severely headache inducement, try animating an artifact/enchantment and turn your creatures into copies of those >_<;; ex:="" animate="" mindslaver=""> every elf you play becomes a turn your opponent doesn't play lol)

The only thing I can see holding this card back IS the casting cost..  5U is a bit high for an easily countered spell but it does seem like it could be fun, and there may be some way yet to be revealed to cheat it into play sooner, so let's not give up on it just yet. ^^


Some of those don't work.  No matter how many Patron Wizards you have, you can only activate one Patron Wizard's ability for each Wizard you have, so you get no benefit beyond what you would normally get for having a Patron Wizard and a bunch of Wizards.  Ditto for Grand Architect.  Mindslaver is legendary, so you would also need a Mirror Gallery to make it work, at which point you would have a combo consisting of 4 expensive cards.
I could see using this in my Standard zombie deck. In fact, I can almost see this making Zombies tier one in Standard. Putting this on a Diregraf Captain or Geralf's Messenger seems very powerful. (Question: I assume that a creature that's a copy of something with undying will come back, right? I think so, but I'm not sure.) The only problem is the mana cost. Four copies of this enchantment is right out, and even playing three would require more extensive changes to the deck to use it, but two or one copy might be a decent finisher.

Some of those don't work.  No matter how many Patron Wizards you have, you can only activate one Patron Wizard's ability for each Wizard you have, so you get no benefit beyond what you would normally get for having a Patron Wizard and a bunch of Wizards.  Ditto for Grand Architect.  Mindslaver is legendary, so you would also need a Mirror Gallery to make it work, at which point you would have a combo consisting of 4 expensive cards.

You're right about the Mindslaver.  I forgot it was legendary... But it WILL work with Patron Wizard, because every single creature you have will be able to tap itself to spike their spells.  Same thing for Grand Architect.  Don't forget that the creatures are copies so they will be blue wizard creatures too.
Wow I really, really like the art of this card! I think it's the colour scheme, the womans hood is in my favourite colour ever.

As for the cost, I agree that it is slightly overcosted. I still like it and if I ever get one, I will definitely play it, as it has an effect I enjoy and is wacky.

IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
Already mentioned, but I really like Kokusho, the Evening Star. Also, Halimar Excavaitor. Maybe a janky little Myr deck with an unlimited mana combo?
Why does this card have the non-token clause? Also, why does it have the "your creature" clause? Mirrorweave is a great card, why didn't they make the enchantment version of it?
I think the Selesnya Guildmage idea can still have some merit.  Remember, only non-token creatures get changed, so if you can make a token copy of your guildmage first (say, Followed Footsteps, which has pretty cool implications for Infinite Reflection too), then play the Infinite Reflection, you become free to move the aura around among your opponents' creatures, changing what each of your subsequent creatures enter the battlefield as a copy of.  It's of course a lot of work, and making it consistent and fast is going to be difficult, if not impossible, but it could be fun, and once you've got Infinite Reflection on something good, the Guildmage is a nice cheap non-token creature to copy a Blightsteel Colossus.  Then you'll want numerous Flicker effects (Sudden Disappearance) so that you can re-clone any of your non-token creatures as you move the Infinite Reflection around.
It probably has a nontoken clause to prevent shenanigans occurring from the likes of Followed Footsteps and Mimic Vat. The nontoken clause helps prevent you from playing cheap token decks with this as well, such as using White Sun's Zenith or Conqueror's Pledge.

This card is very expensive to play, and there are easier ways to win, but often I like to look for different ways to win which is why this card is appealing -- it allows new things to be done. Consider running a Falkenrath Noble deck with this and Bloodghast. Now get a sac outlet. The Bloodghasts come into play as copies of Falkenrath Noble, you sacrifice them to trigger Falkenrath Noble's ability, then throw down some lands to return them back to the battlefield (they are Bloodghasts in the graveyard, so they maintain their landfall ability). Run with Altar's Reap for card drawing, or Barter in Blood to kill off opponent's creatures.
Why does this card have the non-token clause? Also, why does it have the "your creature" clause? Mirrorweave is a great card, why didn't they make the enchantment version of it?


The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.

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From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

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Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

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MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Why does this card have the non-token clause? Also, why does it have the "your creature" clause? Mirrorweave is a great card, why didn't they make the enchantment version of it?


The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.



Or Geist-Honored Monk.


Oh the shenanigans that could happen if this DID count tokens. It's best that it doesn't.
The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.


Just turning one mana dork that accelerated out the Grave Titan seems "infinite" enough to me. :P

Or...mana dorks + Sun Titan + Divine Reckoning + this. Heheh.


Anyway...what happens when you get two of these out? Seems...confusing.

The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.


Just turning one mana dork that accelerated out the Grave Titan seems "infinite" enough to me. :P

Or...mana dorks + Sun Titan + Divine Reckoning + this. Heheh.


Anyway...what happens when you get two of these out? Seems...confusing.



The first effect that mirrorweaves everything will apply in timestamp order, so the most recently played enchantment will be the relevant one and will transform everything into a copy of the creature it's on.

The second effect is handled by you choosing the order the effects go on the stack for whenever a new non-token creature enters the battlefield under your control.


Note that this only means something if you place the second Infinite Reflections card on an OPPONENT'S creature.  Otherwise, by placing it on your own creature after one Reflection is already out means that the creature you're placing the second enchantment on is already a copy of the creature that the first enchantment is on.

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From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

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Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

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MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.


Some of those don't work.  No matter how many Patron Wizards you have, you can only activate one Patron Wizard's ability for each Wizard you have, so you get no benefit beyond what you would normally get for having a Patron Wizard and a bunch of Wizards.  Ditto for Grand Architect.  Mindslaver is legendary, so you would also need a Mirror Gallery to make it work, at which point you would have a combo consisting of 4 expensive cards.

You're right about the Mindslaver.  I forgot it was legendary... But it WILL work with Patron Wizard, because every single creature you have will be able to tap itself to spike their spells.  Same thing for Grand Architect.  Don't forget that the creatures are copies so they will be blue wizard creatures too.


Okay, it technically "works" with those cards, but not very well.  With Patron Wizard, it's a more expensive Xenograft that doesn't work with tokens and blanks any other abilities that your creatures might have.  You might as well just use Xenograft or play with Wizards in the first place.  Putting it on Grand Architect is slightly better because it allows your creatures to pump each other, but it doesn't allow you to cast huge artifacts any more easily than you could just by having a bunch of blue creatures.
The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.


Just turning one mana dork that accelerated out the Grave Titan seems "infinite" enough to me. :P

Or...mana dorks + Sun Titan + Divine Reckoning + this. Heheh.


Anyway...what happens when you get two of these out? Seems...confusing.



The first effect that mirrorweaves everything will apply in timestamp order, so the most recently played enchantment will be the relevant one and will transform everything into a copy of the creature it's on.

The second effect is handled by you choosing the order the effects go on the stack for whenever a new non-token creature enters the battlefield under your control.


From the FAQ in the article:
* If you control more than one Infinite Reflection, you can apply those copy effects in any order. Creatures you control will enter the battlefield as a copy of the one whose copy effect you apply last.


That says you can choose which to apply last, so the timestamp wouldn't matter.

Note that this only means something if you place the second Infinite Reflections card on an OPPONENT'S creature.  Otherwise, by placing it on your own creature after one Reflection is already out means that the creature you're placing the second enchantment on is already a copy of the creature that the first enchantment is on.



Mostly, true. But I can think of at least one and maybe three ways to have an Infinite Reflection out and control a creature that's not a copy of it. The definite option is to have the Reflection out and cast Mind Control on something of your opponent's. Another way, which I'm not sure of: have the Reflection out, cast a creature, and use Voidslime to counter the Reflection's trigger. (Obviously, those don't require those specific cards, but you get the general idea: control effects and triggered-ability-countering effects, if the Reflection's effect counts as a triggered ability.) And third, and I'm not sure about this either for the same reason as the last, I think Torpor Orb might stop your Reflection from ever making creatures you cast into copies, so the Reflection would ONLY affect things that were in play when it entered the battlefield.

In any of those cases, a second Infinite Reflection would give you a choice between two creatures. Admittedly, those are rare, bizarre, almost pointless game states... but it is technically possible.
To go old school with the frustration card of choice: Mundungu.
What would be the most fun, though, is Nacatl War-Pride. Say you have five creatures out, including the NWP. You enchant the NWP, making all five NWP. You attack with all of them. If your opponent has only one creature, you will have your 1 enchanted NWP, 4 copies of NWP, and 5 Tokens swinging in for the kill. (As that one creature has to block, your opponent will eat 27. 
If they have 2 creatures, it goes up to 1 enchanted NWP, 4 copies of NWP, and  10 Tokens. Two blocked and 39 to the face.
Callous Oppressor would be nuts. The ETB ability won't trigger, so you can steal anything and everything your opponent has. You could say your creatures mutinied against you.

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred: Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature. Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself? Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill. Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it. Him: You can't do that. Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Note that this only means something if you place the second Infinite Reflections card on an OPPONENT'S creature.  Otherwise, by placing it on your own creature after one Reflection is already out means that the creature you're placing the second enchantment on is already a copy of the creature that the first enchantment is on.



Mostly, true. But I can think of at least one and maybe three ways to have an Infinite Reflection out and control a creature that's not a copy of it. The definite option is to have the Reflection out and cast Mind Control on something of your opponent's. Another way, which I'm not sure of: have the Reflection out, cast a creature, and use Voidslime to counter the Reflection's trigger. (Obviously, those don't require those specific cards, but you get the general idea: control effects and triggered-ability-countering effects, if the Reflection's effect counts as a triggered ability.) And third, and I'm not sure about this either for the same reason as the last, I think Torpor Orb might stop your Reflection from ever making creatures you cast into copies, so the Reflection would ONLY affect things that were in play when it entered the battlefield.

In any of those cases, a second Infinite Reflection would give you a choice between two creatures. Admittedly, those are rare, bizarre, almost pointless game states... but it is technically possible.

Four: You enchant a token creature you control.

Also, I don't think you can Voidslime Infinite Reflection, as it's not a triggered abililty, but a replacement effect. Same goes for Torpor Orb.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
For clarity's sake:
IMAGE(http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/nb3l872yqc_en.jpg)

The nontoken clause is so you can't make infinite Grave Titans.


Just turning one mana dork that accelerated out the Grave Titan seems "infinite" enough to me. :P

Or...mana dorks + Sun Titan + Divine Reckoning + this. Heheh.


Anyway...what happens when you get two of these out? Seems...confusing.



The first effect that mirrorweaves everything will apply in timestamp order, so the most recently played enchantment will be the relevant one and will transform everything into a copy of the creature it's on.

The second effect is handled by you choosing the order the effects go on the stack for whenever a new non-token creature enters the battlefield under your control.


From the FAQ in the article:
* If you control more than one Infinite Reflection, you can apply those copy effects in any order. Creatures you control will enter the battlefield as a copy of the one whose copy effect you apply last.


That says you can choose which to apply last, so the timestamp wouldn't matter.



That FAQ note has to be referring to the second ability (The Essence of the Wild-like ability that modifies how new creatures enter the battlefield), which I agree with.  There is absolutely no way that it can be referring to the first ability. 

You play one Infinite Reflection and it's first ability Mirrorweaves all of your creatures into the enchanted creature.  You play a second Infinite Reflection and it will re-mirrorweave all of your creatures into the newly enchanted creature.  The mirrorweave effect on the second Infinite Reflection will overwrite the mirrorweave effect of the first.

Note that this only means something if you place the second Infinite Reflections card on an OPPONENT'S creature.  Otherwise, by placing it on your own creature after one Reflection is already out means that the creature you're placing the second enchantment on is already a copy of the creature that the first enchantment is on.



Mostly, true. But I can think of at least one and maybe three ways to have an Infinite Reflection out and control a creature that's not a copy of it. The definite option is to have the Reflection out and cast Mind Control on something of your opponent's. Another way, which I'm not sure of: have the Reflection out, cast a creature, and use Voidslime to counter the Reflection's trigger. (Obviously, those don't require those specific cards, but you get the general idea: control effects and triggered-ability-countering effects, if the Reflection's effect counts as a triggered ability.) And third, and I'm not sure about this either for the same reason as the last, I think Torpor Orb might stop your Reflection from ever making creatures you cast into copies, so the Reflection would ONLY affect things that were in play when it entered the battlefield.

In any of those cases, a second Infinite Reflection would give you a choice between two creatures. Admittedly, those are rare, bizarre, almost pointless game states... but it is technically possible.

Four: You enchant a token creature you control.

Also, I don't think you can Voidslime Infinite Reflection, as it's not a triggered abililty, but a replacement effect. Same goes for Torpor Orb.


I give.  Examples 1 and 4 are correct.  But Chronego is correct about Voidslime and Torpor Orb not applying.

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From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

***************************************************************************************

Post #777

***************************************************************************************

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

***************************************************************************************

MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

The danger here with this card is that it is highly susceptible to combo-interruption. Sever the Bloodline shuts down everything, save for your creature having hexproof. You could throw equipment with hexproof on it onto the enchanted creature, and then bounce the other targeted creature (saving your enchantment) -- otherwise, bouncing the enchanted creature may save you the creature, but as with any other enchantment, it sets you back heavily.
Assuming we have enchanted homicidal brute: if one of the copies (unenchanted creatures) is a DFC and you don't attack with it, will the copy flip over?

Will the 2nd side of the DFC then immediately become a copy of the brute again (assuming we attacked with the enchanted brute)?
1: Flayer Husk
2: Infinite reflection
3: Donate
4: Murderous Seclusion

now any creature that enters the battlefield under your opponents control instantly dies.