Party Optimization: Or help me deiced what to play

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I am going to be joining a new group at the end of the month, and am very exicited.  However I am having a hard time picking a character to play.  I want to play something that will be the most benefitual to the group.

Currently the group concents of:


  • Dwarf Paladin: Built like a striker, harly uses his divine challenge

  • Human Assault Swordmage/Sorceror King Pact Warlock:  striking/off-tank

  • Shade Skald: the party leader

  • Shifter, Longtooth TWF Ranger: soild striker through and through


Looking at this party, my first throught is controller and an Enchanter (Mage) could be a fun build, but also with this party a second Leader could be a bigger bost, and a Warlord could be very fun to play.  I am also noticing that the group has no prue defender, maybe I should try a Paladin|Warlord hybrid.  So not being able to settle on anoption myself I am asking the community for any input they might have.
Well you definatly need some ranged.
And you don't need another striker.
With 2 off defenders you don't need one of those.

So a ranged controller.

Int skills are missing so an Int based controler.

Psion or Wizard.  Enchanter would be good.  Drop alot of -to hit stuff.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Seconding the above.  Some form of Wizard.  Doesn't wildly matter which one.

Hybrid Wizard|Warlord could also be interesting.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I would not worry much about having a defender with what you have.  It doesn't look like your party has much for ranged attacks and you might be lacking in wisdom skills.

I would either go with a controller or with a second leader who off controls well like a shaman, who is also good at granting attacks.  

So do the enchanter if you are interested in that.  Otherwise an invoker, ranged druid, shaman, or ranged cleric.  Or some hyrbid of those classes if you like hybrids.

Edit: Mellored the warlock/swordmage probably has the int skills covered.
Well that did not take long Cool

I guess I will be building myself an enchanter... maybe an Enchanter|Warlord hybrid sounds granting extra attacks to my allies or my enemies, but such a build seems too MAD to be as effective as specializing in only one class... of course I could make the warlord half lazy (don't mind my brain stroming)

Thank for the input. 
When people say 'Hybrid Warlord', what they mean is 'Hybrid Lazy Warlord'.  Almost always.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I built a hybrid wizard/warlord once, picking wizard spells that didn't require attack rolls.  Roleplayed it as a spoiled brat noble completely unwilling to do any actual work.  It was pretty awesome.

The best part is that he was dumb as a post AND completely lazy, and so both primary stats were dumped.  Quite a vigorous constitution from all that drinking he did in war college, though.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Edit: Mellored the warlock/swordmage probably has the int skills covered.

Good point.  Wis is likely covered by the ranger too.

Dex isn't covered.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Psion|Warlod is a good combo if you dont want to go wizard.
I might recommend the wiz|shaman and, as a recent thread has shown, abuse tome expertise with your spirit, making it grant free CA to adj enemies. Sets you up for good ranged/aoe control, or good ol spirit infusion granted attacks.
Given that INT skills are covered and DEX is not, you could go with a hunter. They are certainly not in any way as nasty as an optimized wizard, but they can provide ranged control and admirably cover stealth, acrobatics and thievery (with a background).

If your party likes axes and heavy blades, the at-will prone on Clever Shot can really set up Headsman's Chop as a nice bread and butter. Delay until right after the monster's turn, prone him, and watch a full round of chopping shenanigans. This tactic is for those moments when enabling damage is more important than controlling monsters.
Actually, unless the ranger doesn't to ignore AC altogether, they will have a decent enough Dex for those skills. What the party is lacking is either Wis or Cha (depending on which way Pali went), but most likely Wis.

Also, hunters are just awful. The best they have to offer is poachable by a ranged ranger, who can then make it better nominal control and still do striker damage.
I doubt they are lacking in CHA. Their leader is a skald.


Like I said - I think a straight up Op'd wizard is probably the best from a control perspective, but the hunter's okay. He can provide some control, minion popping and, via Headsman's Chop, significant damage buffing if the party is a melee group with axes and swords. It's the choice I'd play in a group that wasn't playing bleeding edge optimization.

Well, since my last and only character I have played was a Ranged Ranger, I would not want to play something so similar in as in the Hunter.  Also having read the essential classes the only one that I like is the mage.  Getting rid of encounter or daily powers, breaking the mode of 4e class design, and really just turn me off to those classes.


But yes everyone’s input has been very helpful.  I am pretty set on playing Enchanter now I just need to choose a race. I like the flavor of the Eladrin or Kalashtar (since we will be playing in Eberron), but Tiefling racial support is just so good even if I am not to attacked to the races flavor, it is still temping me to make my mage a Tiefling.  If only I could play a Kalashtar with the Tiefling racial support.

Actually, unless the ranger doesn't to ignore AC altogether, they will have a decent enough Dex for those skills. What the party is lacking is either Wis or Cha (depending on which way Pali went), but most likely Wis. Also, hunters are just awful. The best they have to offer is poachable by a ranged ranger, who can then make it better nominal control and still do striker damage.

Not neccicaraly.

1 feat will get them chain.  Which leaves all their Wis riders in tact.



Anyways, if your going enchanter, gnomes also work well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

^Good point, but it gets behind past heroic since you won't be able to boost AC with stat bumps. And I thought all the Wis riders were basically for archer rangers.

Also, a skald doesn't /need/ Cha. Its flavorful and helpful with certain powers, but they can easily ignore it as a secondary.
Wis/dex druid with magic stones + hamanu's roar/polearm momentum makes a good controller.
^Good point, but it gets behind past heroic since you won't be able to boost AC with stat bumps. And I thought all the Wis riders were basically for archer rangers. Also, a skald doesn't /need/ Cha. Its flavorful and helpful with certain powers, but they can easily ignore it as a secondary.

Wis is the rider for both. Rangers are a V class. Two primaries, one secondary. Also Pathfinder, one of the most damaging LDB Ranger builds, is Str/Wis. You just need to pay your two feat tax for Scale and you're fine. Masterwork heavy armor scales faster then Masterwork light armor. You can stay at reasonable AC all the way up.
Ah. Good to know. Admittedly, my ranger build depth is /not/ that deep (I just really hate twin strike), so I kind of assumed all melee variants were aiming for 18/18 Str/Dex and then Wis as a tertiary.
And you can freely move the spirit around and they would not be able to get OAs on the spirit so you can position it as needed.  You would just need a way to beef up the spirit.
Are the Ranger|Invoker PoS Divine Bolt Rapid Shot shenanigans still possible?
Are the Ranger|Invoker PoS Divine Bolt Rapid Shot shenanigans still possible?

I think so... but outside of a Lair Assualt, that sounds like a good way to get thwacked by a DM.
Are the Ranger|Invoker PoS Divine Bolt Rapid Shot shenanigans still possible?

I think so... but outside of a Lair Assualt, that sounds like a good way to get thwacked by a DM.



Well maybe... but it would cover dex/wis and controlling :D

Well the party might be a little weak on the DEX skills, the Ranger has WIS as a secondary stat and has the key WIS skill (preception) covered.

I have built Kalashtar Mage (Enchanter) and I will get to see how he does at the end of the month. 
Sounds like fun! I'm a big fan of grabbing Orb Expertise and trying to get orbs that further boost forced movement ... I LOVE being able to re-arrange the battlefield like that, it's great for enabling other players and very satisfying.

also, enchanters are set up for some ABSURDELY good powers (mass charm, charm of the defender, hypnotize ...); and remember, you can use those on your own party members for fun and profit!
Jandor1, all three of the powers you mention can only target enemies.

As I said, I have been building a Kalashtar Enchanter, but I have been auguring with myself on what At-wills I should take.  I am definitely taking Hypnotism, but for my second choice I am bouncing back and forth between Beguiling Strands and Winged Horde.  Both are solid powers and I can see uses for both.  Beguiling Strands fits my theme by being a charm and enchantment spell, with a huge area, party friendly, and a big push offers great control but does little damage, and for a single target is redundant with Hypnotism.   Winged Horde loses the enchantment and charm keywords and is a smaller area, but allows my allies to move freely and does more damage than Beguiling Strands.


 Any suggestions? Thank you

The wizard in my home game bounces back between Winged Horde, Hypnotism and Beguiling Strands. I find, as a DM, that Hypnotism and Beguiling Strands tend to really bork my monsters, while Winged Horde isn't really all that impressive. Part of that is forced movement into bad terrain (there's been a lot of pools of lava lately), part is party synergy (the ranger really likes to stack on slowing and proning with his heaps of damage).

Hope that helps.