Additional Classes/Power Sources in DNDNext? Chemist, Engineer?

It's a question I've asked myself in looking through 3rd and 4th edition books-

Why are there no classes that reflect the gnome tinkerer/ goblin bodger, etc or the mad scientist chemist?

I myself have played artificer and re-named my abilities to try to make it feel more like what i would call an "alchemist", or another time an "engineer"- but I would love to see a full fledged class or two that are designed as that from the ground up.

Is there interest in seeing something like this in the community?  

When I heard about DnDNext I was dissappointed that a 'weird science'  power source never surfaced. 

Since the topic is about new classes/power sources- are there others people might like to see in supplements for DnDNext?  Off the top of my head-

Alchemist (using chemistry with a fantasy flair, not arcane spells put in a bottle)
Engineer (or maybe just the guy who tries out the mad doctor's experimental equipment)
Gunslinger
Sepulcris (Dark Knight Protector, that's the anti-paladin name I use)
Simic (the mad scientists who muck around with genetics and "play god" creating monsters of their specimen and often themselves- I use the name of the Ravnica Guild from Magic the Gathering because I feel they are the best example)

I know there are of course limits to how many classes there can be put out, but perhaps we could suggest via a poll, what we'd like to see after the base classes are finished?
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I'm in favor of techo-classes like the alchemist and the tinkerer.  However, they do suffer from a limited design space if you are trying to create an item-creating class sans magic (whether arcane or divine) or psionics.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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Alchemy we already have.  The rest ... meh.  The gnome tinkerer concept was unique to Dragonlance (and there it can stay), and the goblin engineer was ... Everquest, was it?  And, again, there it can stay.
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I'm in favor of techo-classes like the alchemist and the tinkerer.  However, they do suffer from a limited design space if you are trying to create an item-creating class sans magic (whether arcane or divine) or psionics.

I dunno, man.  Get a few of these locked in a dungeon, and suddenly an A-Team 'build' montage ensues.

I'm in favor of techo-classes like the alchemist and the tinkerer.  However, they do suffer from a limited design space if you are trying to create an item-creating class sans magic (whether arcane or divine) or psionics.

 
While I hate to admit, re-skins of arcane abilities works well for my current (Artificer) Alchemist-

Oh I just realized what you meant, No I wasn't going for an item-creating class, so much as a class that used a different set of "spells" with a different flavor.  
Alchemy we already have.  The rest ... meh.  The gnome tinkerer concept was unique to Dragonlance (and there it can stay), and the goblin engineer was ... Everquest, was it?  And, again, there it can stay.


I'll admit I'm new to the DnDNext scene, is there an Alchemist class? or do you mean the set of items that can be tacked on to any character?  

If it's a class I'd love to see what's been mentioned.

If not, the items from 4E I admit were cool- I just wanted a whole level progression, something akin to a chemical powered wizard.
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The problem is, "cause" has been traditionally entrenched in the rules, to the point where getting the same "effect" from any change of character-gimmick requires explicit permssion from a different class doing mostly the same things, or an off-the-books collusion with a DM.
Could you rephrase that Qmark? I'm not following you.
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
Alchemist is a problem for power balance. You have to come up with some justification for the character not just stockpiling items and potions, and a reason why they don't constantly hand out the good ones to other characters. The obvious choices of time and money limitations don't work, and the simply arbitrary ones used by computer games feel very artificial in a RPG. What you tend to end up with is a 4e artificer, a character who is channeling personal magic through physical objects.

Engineer and Gunslinger only work in steam punk styled games. A lot of D&D campaign worlds don't have gunpowder at all and rules for guns are very awkward in D&D anyway.


Alchemist is a problem for power balance. You have to come up with some justification for the character not just stockpiling items and potions, and a reason why they don't constantly hand out the good ones to other characters. The obvious choices of time and money limitations don't work, and the simply arbitrary ones used by computer games feel very artificial in a RPG. What you tend to end up with is a 4e artificer, a character who is channeling personal magic through physical objects.

Engineer and Gunslinger only work in steam punk styled games. A lot of D&D campaign worlds don't have gunpowder at all and rules for guns are very awkward in D&D anyway.




As far as power justification, we ruled that alchemist needed to taste smell and do other dangerous things that risk permanent injury to themselves by making too much (thus the daily limit) and to make permanent items requires mixing in presevatives that had time and cost constraints to match the craft alchemy rituals, and without this the chemicals go inert after a short rest/day. If the player really wants to pass his encounterlot daily powers off to his allies- I can't see how that overpowers it, provided the limits stay in place. 

As far as the awkward gun rules- that's definately something that I think should be addressed in dnd Next. 

I don't think engineers or  gunpowder are a staple of all fantasy, but neither are monks, seekers, or battle minds. Each supplement is meant to be an option not a requirement. I only think these should be options.  I've seen plenty of adventures treat magic users as strange and untrusted in the rural community, I imagine the weird science characters would fit much the same. 
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
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As far as the awkward gun rules- that's definately something that I think should be addressed in dnd Next.

It isn't easy. The D&D turn is too long for automatic weapons and too short for manual loaders, plus the scale is setup for a predominately melee game. 4e also had a problem with the way weapon damage was handled that made it easy to abuse low ROF/high damage weapons. The fundamental tactic of pulling your pistol at the start of the fight and firing once then switching to melee weapons is overpowered with 4e's many high [w] damage encounter powers. I don't know if that would be a problem in D&D Next or not. It also creates money control problem, where a wealthy party can afford to have and use guns more and becomes more powerful then a poor party of the same level.

None of which is insurmountable, but together they make it hard to really retrofit gunpowder weapons into D&D. If WotC wants to support them in D&D next, they need to consider them up front and how to tweak the game mechanics to make it work.

I don't think engineers or  gunpowder are a staple of all fantasy, but neither are monks, seekers, or battle minds. Each supplement is meant to be an option not a requirement. I only think these should be options.  I've seen plenty of adventures treat magic users as strange and untrusted in the rural community, I imagine the weird science characters would fit much the same. 

There is a bit of a difference between fitting in a fantasy based character that dosn't match any story or historical model, and fitting in a character from another genre entirely. The only ones that really get off easy here are the psionic characters, who slip past the genre barriers because D&D has always had psionics.

But I have nothing against such characters, I would actually like to see D&D support them as a campaign world specific option. I'm hoping the module/option system in D&D next allows for more of this sort of genre control. 4e was built around the assumption that you could use anything published by WotC in any campaign, and it tended to make all of the campaign worlds blend together. Each campaign world should have some elements that are specific to that campaign world, classes, powers, races, whatever, that make it unique and different from other campaign worlds.

I could see perhaps a Knowlege power source that would encompass all things dangerous and mundane, such as someone who specializes in the use of alchemical compounds, or tinkers with their crossbow from level one only to have something roughly as dangerous as a ballista.

I'm not sure if it has much use beyond those two though.

I could see Alchemist falling under nature (taking natural ingredients to make supernatural like effects). But I can't easily place a Tinkerer type class.
If/when they print rules for firearms in D&D5, they should simply say 'screw historical accuracy'.  Just balance them against the other ranged weapons that exist.  No stupid-long reload times, no crazy damage.
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If/when they print rules for firearms in D&D5, they should simply say 'screw historical accuracy'.  Just balance them against the other ranged weapons that exist.  No stupid-long reload times, no crazy damage.


Amen to that.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I'm stunned. I'm going to agree with Salla? Yup. Screw that historical accuracy.
Doh, I just found this thread- http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/view/75882/28891795/Firearms?pg=1

So I'll leave the firearms discussion for there, suffice to say it would have to be assumed something was worked out to allow a gunslinger to be fit in to DnDNext.

Alynn, I do like that concept a lot!  I would probably have the tinkers have a number of "devices" equivelent to the number of spells a wizard has.  Hmm, a couple concepts:

Powersource "Alchemy": Junkie (Melee Striker who juices himself up and hulks out) Doctor (Leader/Healer) Bombadier (Controller who uses bombs and various alchemicals to splash around the battlefield) --name TBD-- (Guardian who forms weapons and shields from fast freezing ice/explosions and other fantastical reactions)

The guardian character is hard to describe but my example would be from a game I ran awhile ago- The character could splash a chemical and water onto his hand as a minor action that would rapidly freeze into a temporary sword. which really was just a huge flavor skin over drawing a sword- but thats the idea really.

Powersource "Devices": Engineer (Controller) --something like Van Helsing from the movie, the dude who uses the sweet stuff someone else made-- (Striker) Battery (Leader who uses electricty to zap people back to life)  Powersuit (Guardian who wears plate with his utility abiliies and attacks built into the armor)
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
If/when they print rules for firearms in D&D5, they should simply say 'screw historical accuracy'.  Just balance them against the other ranged weapons that exist.  No stupid-long reload times, no crazy damage.


Amen to that.

Plus, it makes a hypothetical 5E Modern a bit more substantial than "Bang! You're dead!"
If/when they print rules for firearms in D&D5, they should simply say 'screw historical accuracy'.  Just balance them against the other ranged weapons that exist.  No stupid-long reload times, no crazy damage.


Amen to that.

Plus, it makes a hypothetical 5E Modern a bit more substantial than "Bang! You're dead!"


I am very eager to see a Modern and Future module for DDN.  I'm quite irritated that D20 Modern got the shaft in the 4e update, and I'm really hoping that WotC doesn't further alienate the D20 Modern fanbase by leaving it out of DDN.

I'm in favor of techo-classes like the alchemist and the tinkerer.  However, they do suffer from a limited design space if you are trying to create an item-creating class sans magic (whether arcane or divine) or psionics.

 
While I hate to admit, re-skins of arcane abilities works well for my current (Artificer) Alchemist-

Oh I just realized what you meant, No I wasn't going for an item-creating class, so much as a class that used a different set of "spells" with a different flavor.


I thought you were talking about a tinker that expresses her powers/spell through unique magic tinker items like magic missile guns, firball grenades, etc.

Alchemy we already have.  The rest ... meh.  The gnome tinkerer concept was unique to Dragonlance (and there it can stay), and the goblin engineer was ... Everquest, was it?  And, again, there it can stay.


I'll admit I'm new to the DnDNext scene, is there an Alchemist class? or do you mean the set of items that can be tacked on to any character?  

If it's a class I'd love to see what's been mentioned.

If not, the items from 4E I admit were cool- I just wanted a whole level progression, something akin to a chemical powered wizard.


A chem-wizard is possible, but you have to consider concepts like "why is the chem-wizard the only one who can do that?  Can't any of his allies pick up his gear and do the same thing?"  This means the chem-wizard must be doing something to his toys to make them work that only he can do.  Which is fine.  But it has to be explained in the fluff.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I think that in general, I would love to see some of these ideas. Like the Gunslinger will be awesome, but make him work with all ranged missle weapons, like crossbow, or rapid crossbow. I can see having to use a move/minor action to reload the weapon, and the weapon should have enough ammo to at least shoot five rounds, at most 10.

The alchemist/mad scientist seem to be very similar, and you can import what has been done for Pathfinder, but I have played it, and it is too similar to a wizard/assassin. So, I think it would make sense to just make it a subset of the assassin for the poison/bomb/other deadly weapons. for the other half Potons/mad science/etc. should go to the wizard, and maybe multiclass.

I think the engineer sounds awesome, and should be Steam Punk inspired, and can be similar to a summoner, or can be a fighter. I also think this is how we can make a character like Iron Man in D&D. So you make creatures/robots to join you in battle, or use your engineering for your weapons/armor.

EDIT: As for the Tinkerer, it could be a bonus a gnome can get for maybe a class, or energy source, but just a couple extra powers, not a clas upon itself.
My opinion is the alchemist could be first a optional buid for artificer (class from Eberron). After the experencie could help us to create a true alchemist.

But...alchemist like PCs would be like vacian magic. I say when the alchemist PC has used all potions, oils and bombs..is useful like wizard what has spent all spells.

The alchemy like new soucer of power would be cool, but I think the best option is like special mechanic of gameplay ought be "playtested" like a theme of artificer in the first moment, and later the true alchemist class would designed and created.

Today tinker gnome and mechanic goblins are very popular archetype. It´s not classic D&D but It ought be a option for some new players and fans.

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My opinion is the alchemist could be first a optional buid for artificer (class from Eberron). After the experencie could help us to create a true alchemist.

But...alchemist like PCs would be like vacian magic. I say when the alchemist PC has used all potions, oils and bombs..is useful like wizard what has spent all spells.  .


It could be ritual caster like... ie if you have the ingredient you have it - hang spell slots over a fire thank you.. In 4e Alchemy is item based things you can create by the way.
Or maybe the alchemist is like in full metal alchemist and the main ingredient is a ritual circle which the most heroic, ie powerful ones get tatoos of or similar or have seen beyond the gate and no longer need it or maybe they carry a philosphers stone like item allowing them to go beyond the price... that NPC alchemists are limited to.
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It could be ritual caster like... ie if you have the ingredient you have it - hang spell slots over a fire thank you.. In 4e Alchemy is item based things you can create by the way.



The issue I had with the Alchemy in 4E is that the only real limit is how much money you have.  They really have to be equal to any other class (thus encounter/daily/at-will for 4E)

Some fluff for this as I suggested earlier can be: you can only safely do so much alchemy at a time, and the volatile things go inert quickly. 

-
As far as "Full Metal Alchemist" Alchemy, but I would definatly put that as an arcane power source, not a chemical one- since that does really move towards an Artificer's internal power type.

Luis, about making a variant of Artificer- I definately see what you're saying with that, and if that's how WOTC built classes after the PHB1 then that's the way to do it.  It just felt to me that they built things from the ground up with each class, with a few core concepts required in each class as needed by their role. 
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
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