Clone and Persist

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If I have a Clone on the Battlefield that has copied a Woodfall Primus, and the Clone dies, does it still return to the Battlefield because of Persist?  Does it return as a Woodfall Primus with a -1/-1 or does it return as a Clone, or does it return as a clone with a -1/-1?
If I have a Clone on the Battlefield that has copied a Woodfall Primus, and the Clone dies, does it still return to the Battlefield because of Persist?


Only if it didn't have a -1/-1 counter on it.
Does it return as a Woodfall Primus with a -1/-1 or does it return as a Clone, or does it return as a clone with a -1/-1?


403.4. Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield, it becomes a new object and has no relationship to any previous permanent represented by the same card, except for the cases listed in rule 400.7. (This is also true for any objects entering any zone.)

702.77. Persist

702.77a Persist is a triggered ability. "Persist" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it."


"You may have Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield."

If there happens to (still) be a Woodfall Primus on the battlefield, that would of course be a valid choice.  Note that Clone's ability makes no attempt to interfere with the placement of counters, such as a -1/-1 counter from persist.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

So if you target a Woodfall Primus who has a -1/-1 counter placed on it with a Clone, the Clone would not get the counter? 
next time make a new thread so it is more visible

yes, Clone does not copy counters on the creature it is copying
also, Clone does not target anything
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So if you target a Woodfall Primus who has a -1/-1 counter placed on it with a Clone, the Clone would not get the counter? 


Clone does not target.

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The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

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So if you target [sic] a Woodfall Primus who has a -1/-1 counter placed on it with a Clone, the Clone would not get the counter? 


That depends on whether the Clone is being brought back by a persist ability or is entering the battlefield for some other reason (such as having been a spell).

If it is coming back due to persist, it has a -1/-1 counter on it.  If it is coming back for some other reason, there is no reason for a -1/-1 counter.  The presence or absence of a counter on the original creature is completely irrelevant.
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

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