Replacing with Itself

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My opponent controls Leyline of the Void, while I control a vanilla creature enchanted with Boar Umbra. My opponent hits the creature with Doom Blade. What happens? I'd say it's pretty clear to everyone that what "should" happen is that the Boar Umbra gets exiled, no questions asked. But looking into the minutiae of the rules I'm not sure that would necessarily be the case.

Let's walk through the replacement effects to see what I mean.

Doom Blade starts to resolve. The event it wants to cause is "Destroy the creature by putting it into its owner's graveyard". Now we apply replacement effects. Two are applicable--let's go with applying Leyline first.

Now the event is "[Destroy the creature by exiling it]" Umbra is still applicable, so we apply that.

Now the event is "Remove all damage from the creature and destroy Boar Umbra by putting it into its owner's graveyard."

Now the Umbra is going to the graveyard, which Leyline should replace...but Leyline of the Void has already been applied to this event--we can't apply it a second time. So...the Umbra goes to the graveyard? Clearly, that shouldn't happen.

So...is my reasoning wrong somehow? And if it isn't, how do we fix this issue?

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My opponent controls Leyline of the Void, while I control a vanilla creature enchanted with Boar Umbra. My opponent hits the creature with Doom Blade. What happens? I'd say it's pretty clear to everyone that what "should" happen is that the Boar Umbra gets exiled, no questions asked. But looking into the minutiae of the rules I'm not sure that would necessarily be the case.

Let's walk through the replacement effects to see what I mean.

Doom Blade starts to resolve. The event it wants to cause is "Destroy the creature by putting it into its owner's graveyard". Now we apply replacement effects. Two are applicable--let's go with applying Leyline first.

Now the event is "[Destroy the creature by exiling it]" Umbra is still applicable, so we apply that.

Now the event is "Remove all damage from the creature and destroy Boar Umbra by putting it into its owner's graveyard."

Now the Umbra is going to the graveyard, which Leyline should replace...but Leyline of the Void has already been applied to this event--we can't apply it a second time. So...the Umbra goes to the graveyard? Clearly, that shouldn't happen.

So...is my reasoning wrong somehow? And if it isn't, how do we fix this issue?



Why wouldnt the leyline apply?  Isn't detroying the aura a different event than destroying the creature?
 
No, destroying the Aura is part of an effect that replaces the destruction of the creature.
blah blah metal lyrics
No, destroying the Aura is part of an effect that replaces the destruction of the creature.


But the leyline of the void hasn't replaced destroying the creature (if it had the umbra wouldn't apply), so there is no reason it couldn't replace something that is replacing the destruction.
This is the way I understand it. Putting the creature into the graveyard is the result of the destroy action. Totem armour's replacement effect must be applied before the destroy action is translated into its results, or you have missed your chance. At this point Leyline of the Void's effect is not applicable.

After you have applied Boar Umbra's effect and translated "destroy Boar Umbra" into "put Boar Umbra into its owner's graveyard," you can apply Leyline's effect.

I don't think it matters whether you apply the Leyline effect before or after the Umbra.  The Umbra going to the graveyard is a different card than the creature it was enchanting, so the Leyline effect still needs to be applied to it.

I understand Leyline of the Void's effect to be "[Exile target creature]," not what you had.  This means Boar Umbra's ability is no longer applicable, since the creature isn't being destroyed, it's being exiled.



I'm pretty sure that a creature destroyed with Leyline of the void on the table is still destroyed. The only thing the leyline changes is where the card ends up.

I mean are implying that if i cast Fracturing Gust i'd gain no life?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is an odd situation, but i an't really think of a solution. Perhaps make a special rule that says that if an ability replaces destruction with destruction, the card permanent destroyed instead is subject to any addtional effects of the original destruction.
… and then, the squirrels came.
Ninja edit.  You saw nothing.   ;)

I don't think it matters whether you apply the Leyline effect before or after the Umbra.  The Umbra going to the graveyard is a different card than the creature it was enchanting, so the Leyline effect still needs to be applied to it.




The problem is, what needs to be replaced? Being put into the graveyard is part of destruction. Since Leyline is a replacement effect, it must replace a part of destruction. Totem armor also replaces destruction with something else (In this case a second instance of destruction). Since you can't apply a replacement effect again to the same ability, you are stuck with the BOar umbra remplacement ability as written.

It is still the same ability.

… and then, the squirrels came.
That's because we're trying to make the Leyline do too much.  It doesn't deal with destruction at all -- that was my mistake, as well.  PirateAmmo has the correct understanding.
Perhaps "destroy [an object]" should be interpreted as "mark [the object] as 'destroyed'; then, if it's marked as destroyed, put it into its owner's graveyard".
blah blah metal lyrics
I guess the key question is whether, once a replacement effect has applied to [Event A], it can then also apply to one component part [Part A1] of [Event A]. I'd assume not, based on 614.5 and the Words of Worship / Nefarious Lich interaction ("gain 2 life -(lich)-> draw 2 cards -(wow)-> gain 10 life" doesn't get further affected by the Lich).

So it seems to me that zammm's problem is indeed a problem in the rules that needs fixing. 
I think the Leyline replacement can't apply to the event until after the totem armor replacement has applied.*

Leyline is looking for cards going to the graveyard.

Totem armor is looking for a destroy event affecting its enchanted creature.

The latter is a direct replacement of the destroy event.
The former is a replacement for any event that would put cards in the library.

*there aren't any rules to this effect, but that's the common sense interpretation.

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Totem Armor doesn't replace an instruction to destroy the creature; it replaces destruction. Totem Armor and Leyline of the Void are both applicable right away.


As Rudolf said in the very first reply, seen from Leyline of the Void's perspective, moving the aura to the graveyard is a different event than moving the creature there. Otherwise it would have to say saomething like "If cards would be ...". (The difference is analogous to the difference between Crumbling Sanctuary and Furnace of Rath; the latter cares about sources and therefore sees different events for different sources).
I disagree. If I Shatter a Darksteel Myr enchanted with Bear Umbra, Totem Armor can be applied, but the Leyline can not.

Similar example: Lets say you have an emblem that says "Permanents you control can not leave the Battlefield." - again, Totem Armor can replace Destruction, while the Leyline can do nothing. "Destruction" makes you move a permanent to teh Yard, but it is not the move itself.

A similar example: Lets say you have a replacement effect saying: "The next time you would discard a Card, draw a Card instead" and Leyline of the Void out. You are targeted by Hymn to Tourach. Obviously, you can replace your first discard, and draw a a card instead. Thus, the Leyline's effect is not applicable.

So, I agree with 2Goth4U: First the Totem Armor, then the Leyline.
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
I disagree. If I Shatter a Darksteel Myr enchanted with Bear Umbra, Totem Armor can be applied, but the Leyline can not.

I agree with your overall point, but your first example is incorrect. From Gatherer, "If a creature enchanted with an Aura that has totem armor is indestructible, lethal damage and effects that try to destroy it simply have no effect. Totem armor won't do anything because it won't have to."
I disagree. If I Shatter a Darksteel Myr enchanted with Bear Umbra, Totem Armor can be applied, but the Leyline can not.

That's  wrong. An impossible event can't be replaced. It just doesn't happen.

A similar example: Lets say you have a replacement effect saying: "The next time you would discard a Card, draw a Card instead" and Leyline of the Void out. You are targeted by Hymn to Tourach. Obviously, you can replace your first discard, and draw a a card instead. Thus, the Leyline's effect is not applicable.

So, I agree with 2Goth4U: First the Totem Armor, then the Leyline.

That's also wrong. In both cases, the next event fits the descriptions of two replacement effects, so either of them may be applied first.

I agree with Ecoris.



You cannot cause a replacement effect that has already been applied to apply a second time by applying further replacement effects. That's the whole point of 614.5: "[a replacement effect] gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it."

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You cannot cause a replacement effect that has already been applied to apply a second time by applying further replacement effects. That's the whole point of 614.5: "[a replacement effect] gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it."


The problem is that leyline of the void does not replace destruction, but the totem armor does.  This makes it somewhat debatable whether the totem armor event counts as replacing an event that has already been replaced by leyline of the void.  I can't find anything in the rule book that talks about effect that replace the actions associated with a keyword action but not the action itself so I suspect this is an area where the rules could do with being tightened.
It seems that the rules are ambiguous or in conflict. 614.5 was updated February last year with MBS:

diff (from Yawgatog): www.yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes...
Update bulletin: www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

Leyline sees two separate events and should get an oppurtunity to affect both, but 614.5 makes a strong case that it can't. But events shouldn't be as tangible as 614.5 could be said to imply.
By the definition of a "Replacement Effect" outlined in the rules (rule 614.1a specifically), both Leyline and Boar Umbra's effects are replacement effects, as they both use the word "instead". According to the rules on rule 616.1d, since neither effect is a self-replacement effect, nor do they transfer control or copy things, either can be chosen to take effect first by the controller of the effected object.

Now, since both of these effects are replacement effects, whichever each can only effect the event once, as has been stated. Given these rules, if Leyline is applied first, it replaces the event of "Destruction", which means to move a card from the battlefeild to the graveyard, with the event of "This card is moved from the battlefield to Exile", and since the Destruction event was replaced, it never occurrs, as per 614.6 ("If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can’t be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.").

Now that the event is no longer a destruction event, Boar Umbra cannot be applied, so the card is simply moved to exile. Once this happens, Boar Umbra is also exiled, as it is sent to the graveyard as a state based action which is replaced with moving to exile.

If Boar Umbra is chosen first, the Destruction event is replaced by Boar Umbra being destroyed, which is then replaced with Boar Umbra being exiled.
Leyline of the Void doesn't stop the event from being a destruction event--it merely changes where the card goes when it's destroyed.

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Given that to destroy a permanent, you "move it from the battlefield to it's owner's graveyard", I assumed that when this effect is replaced it is not longer a destruction event. If the replacing event was still considered a destruction event, would that not imply that regeneration is a Destruction Event? I haven't managed to find anywhere in the rules which specifies wether an event ceases to be a destruction event if effeccted by a replacement, but I would assume that once the event has been replaced with a different event it is no longer considered to be a destruction event.
Given that to destroy a permanent, you "move it from the battlefield to it's owner's graveyard", I assumed that when this effect is replaced it is not longer a destruction event. If the replacing event was still considered a destruction event, would that not imply that regeneration is a Destruction Event? I haven't managed to find anywhere in the rules which specifies wether an event ceases to be a destruction event if effeccted by a replacement, but I would assume that once the event has been replaced with a different event it is no longer considered to be a destruction event.



Again, if i cast Fracturing Gust with leyline on the feild i will gain life.
… and then, the squirrels came.
Given that to destroy a permanent, you "move it from the battlefield to it's owner's graveyard", I assumed that when this effect is replaced it is not longer a destruction event. If the replacing event was still considered a destruction event, would that not imply that regeneration is a Destruction Event?

No. Replacing what an act of destruction does is different from replacing the instance of destruction itself. Leyline does the former, while regeneration does the latter.


...Hmmm...actually, on second thought, looking at it that way maybe this thread's issue isn't actually an issue. The Leyline's initial replacement is replacing what the act of destruction will do, and the Umbra is replacing the act itself. So it's not actually the same event, and the Leyline can therefore be applied post-Umbra without any problems.

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