Whenever WOTC gets around to keywording mill...

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Would you be angry if they chose some word other than "Mill" for the keyword?

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012 Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

I would be angry if they did choose "mill."

"Forget" all the way, baby!
It's clearly an action, like "Scry", so I'm for Forget

Memory Sluice
:ubm:
Sorcery
Target player Forgets 4
Conspire

Yeah, sounds good.

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Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

I prefer "forgets 4 cards."  But that works too.
I think its probably better for everyone's sanity that they just leave it as it is.

Current decks
Comments or suggestions are always welcome

Modern
nothing at the moment

It's clearly an action, like "Scry", so I'm for Forget



Scry is an interesting case.  Originally, it was a keyword ability, but it was then changed to a keyword action without getting a new template (aside from a period).  I think this was a mistake.  While keywords can have a numerical parameter (as seen on graft, suspend, etc.), it doesn't make sense for actions.  Right now, you're told to "scry 2".  I think it would make much more sense if you were told to "scry two cards".

I'd be in favor of the same treatment for milling.  Memory Sluice would say "Target player [verb]s four cards."  I don't really have a strong opinion for which verb they should use.  "Mill" has the advantage of already being the accepted colloquial term, but I think that would quickly change if any official term was introduced.

If they used anything other than "Mill", they'd be fighting the players.

The phrase 'mill' is so ubiquitous in the language of players that it would be nonsensical to go against their expectation, even if there are words that are "better" in terms of grammar or flavour.
I would be disappointed, but not particularly surprised, and certainly not angry. They've said multiple times that they don't want to use 'mill', and they have perfectly understandable reasons for that, even if I happen to disagree with those reasons.

But as adeyke said, it needs to be an action of the form, "{Player} {verb}s {number of} cards"--if they didn't use that templating, that's what I'd get irritated about. I still wouldn't really be outright angry, but irritated? Hell yes.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

If they used anything other than "Mill", they'd be fighting the players.

The phrase 'mill' is so ubiquitous in the language of players that it would be nonsensical to go against their expectation, even if there are words that are "better" in terms of grammar or flavour.



I'm really not convinced that would be a major problem.  There would almost certainly be some initial backlash ("Not naming it 'mill' will ruin Magic forever, so I quit!"), but that happens with everything.  I think once the new card starts appearing on cards and in articles, it'll also get adopted by the playerbase.  I think M10's "battlefield" and "exile" show that such terminology change can work.


"M:tG player's thoughts on Mill keyword"



"No, no! Don't mill me! Mil is already in my name."

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I always liked the flavorword "Flay"  (like a Mindflayer, stealing your sanity), and I could do with the lingo being screwed around with some, since Mill has become more of a TCG term than a Magic term thanks to Millstone.
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If they used anything other than "Mill", they'd be fighting the players.

The phrase 'mill' is so ubiquitous in the language of players that it would be nonsensical to go against their expectation, even if there are words that are "better" in terms of grammar or flavour.


Hexproof was fighting the players the same way.  We all called it foe-shroud or worse, Troll-shroud.

Off-card tradition is not enough of a pull to do something that makes ZERO sense.

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

The eventual keywording of mill will provide nothing more than an excuse to make some popcorn and watch the various magic message boards all go apoplectic.
Hexproof was fighting the players the same way.  We all called it foe-shroud or worse, Troll-shroud.

Off-card tradition is not enough of a pull to do something that makes ZERO sense.

True, but I think there's a significant difference in degree between the two situations; despite its unnatural origins, mill makes significantly more sense as a term than trollshroud ever did.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

The eventual keywording of mill will provide nothing more than an excuse to make some popcorn and watch the various magic message boards all go apoplectic.


Sounds like a terrific reason to me.

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Hexproof was fighting the players the same way.  We all called it foe-shroud or worse, Troll-shroud.

Off-card tradition is not enough of a pull to do something that makes ZERO sense.

True, but I think there's a significant difference in degree between the two situations; despite its unnatural origins, mill makes significantly more sense as a term than trollshroud ever did.


Does it?  The card Millstone has "nebulous flavor" issues in the first place.  I sort of get, between printings, that the sound of the grinding is supposed to drive someone slowly insane, but by keywording as "mill" you're losing that angle.  Now, for some reason, the act of grinding grains into flour causes mages to lose their spellcraft.  What?

While veterans may have standardized on "mill" and new players learn it from them soon enough, wizards hasn't even reprinted Millstone since 10th edition!  The word is an artifact with bygone rigions that would serve only to confuse newer players when it appears on cards rather than being picked up slang vocabulary.  This isn't like "target" where you need to know the vocab to play the game, this is player mass culture.

this debate is probably why the mill effect has not been keyworded yet, despite beign a great place where you could gain word economy.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Does it?  The card Millstone has "nebulous flavor" issues in the first place.  I sort of get, between printings, that the sound of the grinding is supposed to drive someone slowly insane, but by keywording as "mill" you're losing that angle.  Now, for some reason, the act of grinding grains into flour causes mages to lose their spellcraft.  What?

You're looking at it from an in-universe perspective, a la "intimidate" or "flying". And I agree that from that perspective, mill is a completely meaningless term.

But I'm looking at it from an abstract, out-of universe perspective, a la "hand" or "discard". And from that perspective, it looks a lot better. Milling something involves gradually breaking down that thing into smaller and smaller pieces--wearing it away. Apply that to your library--you're breaking it down gradually by removing cards from it one by one until there's nothing left.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Then you get someone like me that will play the card with new keyword and still verbally say mill x cards.

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Mill still has my vote. If they changed it to something silly I'd probably get mad for a week and then not care.
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It could become something like "Grind" or "Rasp" but probably not "Scratch" insted of mill


"M:tG player's thoughts on Mill keyword"



"No, no! Don't mill me! Mil is already in my name."



Despite his little age, Milhouse is a wise sage. (Let's see if anyone gets that.)

I'm kind of partial to "forget", though it's not easily grokkable (since "forget" could also mean discarding cards). The difficulty is that milling itself isn't exactly grokkable as separate from discarding, flavor-wise.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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I would like a keyword for wording aesthetics sake, but mill has no flavour. Here's a few suggestions off the top of my head (and thesaurus): nullify, omit, nix, dwindle. It's hard to pick words that aren't already associated with a counterspell. I, for one, like dwindle.

While were at it I would also like a keyword for: "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it." aka slithing. Frenzy maybe?
I would like a keyword for wording aesthetics sake, but mill has no flavour. Here's a few suggestions off the top of my head (and thesaurus): nullify, omit, nix, dwindle. It's hard to pick words that aren't already associated with a counterspell. I, for one, like dwindle.

While were at it I would also like a keyword for: "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it." aka slithing. Frenzy maybe?



Frenzy is taken, Frenzy Sliver
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using any word other than "mill" would be dumb because that's by far the most popular slang term
using "mill" would be dumb because it makes no sense if you haven't heard of Millstone, a card that hasn't been reprinted since 2007
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97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
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I know.
Mill, because that terms is even used in other CCGs. yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Mill_Deck

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So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
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what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
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58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
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56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

I prefer "erase," myself; but not matter the word choice, I would keep the syntax "erase three cards from your library," for at least a Core set or two.
using any word other than "mill" would be dumb because that's by far the most popular slang term
using "mill" would be dumb because it makes no sense if you haven't heard of Millstone, a card that hasn't been reprinted since 2007



My thoughts exactly. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've read a Wizards article where the author stated pretty much what you just said. New players wouldn't understand the term "mill" because it's rather unintuitive, and existing players would likely get butthurt about any other term because "mill" is ingrained in them.

I kind of like the flavor of some of the suggestions in this thread like "forget" and "erase", but the problem with them is that, intuitively, they could also be taken to mean discard or even exile. It would be hard to keyword "mill", even without the current dilemma of unintuitive but established v. intuitive but alienating.
Mill, because that terms is even used in other CCGs. yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Mill_Deck



True. I don't think of keywording mill, though. The basic "top to graveyard" method is very simple, but some cards send them to exile, and some actually search for cards and send them to exile. They occupy different areas in design space, too.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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If it says to exile or anything different, then it would say exactly that.  Just like how nothing says "fight" except the things that exactly fight.  The same for "die."

"Forget(s) X cards" would be proxied from "Put(s) the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard".  Nothing else would be changed.
"Forget(s) X cards" would be proxied from "Put(s) the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard".  Nothing else would be changed.

...and then someone will complain "Forget doesn't forget!"

It could become something like "Grind" or "Rasp" but probably not "Scratch" insted of mill


I'd like to see Grind used as well. Just means that there will be someone out there that will read this and say "That really grinds my gears!!!"
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I don't think they could ever come up with a flavorful keyword for milling that jived with all the different ways it's been used. Destroying your books, scaring you, grinding up grain, mining, crabs, squawking, installing a sunlight in your study.

I vote that it stays as it is.
I don't think they could ever come up with a flavorful keyword for milling that jived with all the different ways it's been used.

I agree; that's part of the reason I think a more abstract game-rules term would work.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

If it says to exile or anything different, then it would say exactly that.  Just like how nothing says "fight" except the things that exactly fight.  The same for "die."

"Forget(s) X cards" would be proxied from "Put(s) the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard".  Nothing else would be changed.



I can't really tell who you're addressing here, but if it's me I think you misunderstood. I meant a new player's intuition might be just as likely to interpret "Forget" as telling them to discard or something as it would be telling them to mill. I know when I first started playing, looking at some old cards was weird because I was familiar with, for example, what "destroy" meant but not "bury". I thought maybe it was the same thing or at least something similar, but I didn't really have an idea of what might be different about it, so I basically treated them the same. Even a moderately intuitive word (for the experienced player) like Forget would probably leave a new player in the dark, and I'm sure plenty wouldn't even be familiar with the concept of putting cards from the top of your library into your graveyard.

My point is that obviously a milling keyword would simply put cards from the topdeck to the yard, but it would be extremely difficult to make a keyword that was intuitive to new players, like destroy, discard, exile, draw, ect.; it would likely get confused with some other form of "losing cards" like discarding, like in my destroy v. bury example.
If they named it "forget" and used it as a may ability, you could get some "hilarious" Who's On First? type scenarios.

"I forgot to forget!" 
"Wait, did you forget?"
"No, I forgot!"

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012 Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

My guess is they're looking for a word that can apply to physical card manipulation like 'draw' or 'discard', instead of a flavorful term like destroy.  The best I've come up with is "Target player disposes of two cards."
My guess is they're looking for a word that can apply to physical card manipulation like 'draw' or 'discard', instead of a flavorful term like destroy.  The best I've come up with is "Target player disposes of two cards."



The problem is, you're putting cards into your graveyard, which also happens when you discard, among other things. Telling someone to do some keyword action with X cards that implies "losing" them will almost always sound like discard. Wording a milling action without the phrase "from the top of your library" seems nigh impossible to accomplish in an intuitive fashion.
+ 1 for dwindle
I don't think they could ever come up with a flavorful keyword for milling that jived with all the different ways it's been used. Destroying your books, scaring you, grinding up grain, mining, crabs, squawking, installing a sunlight in your study.

I vote that it stays as it is.



Of course, I now hate the number -12 more than anything. I think any player who played in Zendikar-Scars Standard does. So really, just calling it "-12" could work.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt