Avenger help!!

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Hey everyone. I'm wondering how to optimize a Deva Isolating Avenger that i'm playing. He's a lvl 21. stats are as follows:

Str-14
Con-14
Dex-18
Int-20
Wis-22
Cha- 12

thanks a lot in advance! 
Hey everyone. I'm wondering how to optimize a Deva Isolating Avenger that i'm playing. He's a lvl 21. stats are as follows:

Str-14
Con-14
Dex-18
Int-20
Wis-22
Cha- 12

thanks a lot in advance! 



We need a lot more information than that.  On the character builder you should be able to see the output in a purely text format.  Post that up and tell us what you are trying to go for and we can give some help.  As is, our hands are tied.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

Level: 21


Class: Avenger


Race: Deva


Size: Medium


Age: Unknown


Gender: Male


Size: 6’ 6” 215lbs


Alignment: Unaligned


Diety: Raven Queen


Initiative: 16


Defenses:



  • Armor Class: 35

  • Fortitude: 23

  • Reflex: 26

  • Will: 27


 Speed: 8


Strength: 14



  • +2


Constitution:14



  • +2


Dexterity: 18



  • +4


Intellegence: 20



  • +5


Wisdom: 22



  • +6


Charisma:12



  • +1


Senses:



  1. Passive perception- 38

  2. Passive insight- 35


Hit Points: 147



  • Bloodied- 73

  • Healing surge value- 26


Race Features:



  1. Astral Majesty

  2. Astral Resistance

  3. Immortal Origin

  4. Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes


Skills:


Acro-19


Arc-14


Ath-12


Bluff-11


Dipl-11


Dung-16


End-12


Heal-16


Hist-17


Insi-28


Intim-11


Nat-16


Perc-25


Reli-24


Stea-14


Street-11


Thiev-14


Class/Path/Destiny Features:


Class-



  • Oath of Enmity

  • Channel Divinity


Paragon Path- Favored Soul



  • Favored Action

  • Heaven’s Shield

  • Heaven’s Boon


Epic Destiny- Exalted Angel



  • Angelic Nature


Feats:



  • Superior Melee Weapon Proficiency

  • Guaranteed Retribution

  • Improved Armor of Faith

  • Auspicious Lineage

  • Channel Divinity: Raven Queen’s blessing

  • Quick Draw

  • Protected Isolation

  • Ascendant Lineage

  • Combat Anticipation

  • Fleet Footed

  • Eager for Blood

  • Pledge of Retribution


Power Index:


At Will-



  • Bond of Retribution

  • Overwhelming Strike


Encounter-



  • Cloud of Soulds

  • Warding Blade

  • Splinter the Formation

  • (Paragon Path) Radiant Rush


Daily-



  • Aspect of Fury

  • Temple of Respite

  • Temple of Shadow

  • Celestial Skirmish


Magic Item Index:



  1. Weapon- Fullblade of Retribution

  2. Armor- Robe of Eyes

  3. Feet- Boots of Speed

  4. Head- Eye of Discernment

  5. Holy Symbol- Black Feather of the Raven Queen


Other Equipment:



  • Fullblade

  • Cloth armor

  • Spiked Gauntlet

I think you need to visit the avenger guide.  22 wisdom and 20 int is simply too low for level 20 deva, as that's like a 15 preracial wisdom and 13 int.  You lack all accuracy and damage feats.  For example, you don't have expertise.  You also lack basic items like Iron Armbands of Power. 
What are you trying to do with him?  I mean, there's some basic gimmies here that I could suggest, like Unarmored Agility instead of IAoF ... but to get further I'd like to know what you want him to do/play like?

IE, You're a favored Soul.  Are you intending to just fly up to people and beat them?  Is so, would a 1/enc fly power be good enough and you might swap out PPs?  Or is the PP an integral part of who you are, and you really want to keep perma-flight?

Why are your stats that split up?  What are you trying to do with both Dex and Int?

Which feats do you love?  Why? 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

this is exactly why I posted this. i'm obviously doing things wrong. lol
this is exactly why I posted this. i'm obviously doing things wrong. lol



Start here:

community.wizards.com/charop/wiki/Avenge...

And go from there. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Also, a generic overview of your party would be helpful.  My advice if you have a warlord is gonna be different than if you don't, for example.  And if you have a GREAT defender, you might make different choices than if you just have a strong defender.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

thanks alot Matyr. i honestly didn't know where to look to find that. i tried searching for a "handbook" but nothing came up. did that wrong too i guess.
 
i don't have all the details for their classes, sorry, but in our party we have:

Paladin (excuse me, the story just made him a blackguard)
Cleric (a battle Cleric but he doesn't know how to play him)
Fighter
Sorcerer (cosmic)
Assassin
and then me
 
Quite helpful.  No warlord, and at Epic.  I'd advise against a retribution avenger, purely because the math fails to work.  I'd suggest a Unity avenger instead.

You also have a moderately large number of melee types, with just the Sorcerer and Assassin having any real range, and just the Sorcerer being primarily ranged.  That suggests tight-packed battles where you won't have problems getting/giving CA.

No multi-attackers in there, so the +Leader powers won't be too useful.

Yeah, I think I'm suggesting a 16 Wis/Int unity avenger. (Put the 13 into Str or Con, depending on some things we'll talk about later.  Every 4 levels, boost Wis and Int, no exceptions)

Fury's Advance should be your 3rd level power.  Soulforge Hammering is your level 17 power, and I think I'd keep Splinter the Formation (7th level) as your 3rd encounter power.  Yes, I know you can have higher level powers... don't bother.

Strength of Many should have been your 1st level daily, and you may still have it.   Menacing Presense as your 5th level power, and consider Blade of Astral Hosts to round out your dailies.

Feats: You want Painful Oath.  You really really want it.  And you really want an Expertise Feat: probably Two-Handed Weapon expertise.

Unarmored Agility is better than Improved Armor of Faith, but with that party I think I'd tend to build for durability.  Try and fit in Improved Defenses and Superior Will, and if you can make the space -- Improved Armor of Faith.

If you want to have a decent initiative, take Battle Initiative.  That should help salve the loss of Dex.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima



Yeah, I think I'm suggesting a 16 Wis/Int unity avenger. (Put the 13 into Str or Con, depending on some things we'll talk about later.  Every 4 levels, boost Wis and Int, no exceptions)




To be clear he means take the array option the character builder that gives you a 16 in both of those stats before racial adjustments.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Next topic: characterization.  What elements of your character do you need to keep?  Specifically, I'm asking about the god you worship and your PP, but mention feats or skills that you're known for too...

(The three gods of specific note are Corelleon, Erathis, and Amanator (I spelled that wrong).  Given your party, I'm mostly curious about how you'd react to either of the first two) 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

And the topic after that: Items.  If I suggest a level 16 item, are you going to be able to get it?  Or should I suggest a level 26 item instead for your DM to put in a later adventure?

For example:  Siberys Shard of Radiance.  Level 13 or 23... Would add 3/5 damage to your first attack of the turn (Painful Oath) and to all Soulforged Hammering attacks/soulforged hammering boosted attacks.  Can you swing by your local magic mart to pick one up?  Or is it going to be a quest?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

i'm definitely keeping the Raven Queen. that's all of my character's backstory so i would like to keep that. For the PP i'm open to whatever, talked to my DM today and he's cool with killing my character and letting him get "reborn" as Devas do (also keep my lvl and such. Dm's a real cool guy). so anything other than Diety is pretty open.

Items are open. DM gave us a choice to pick any 4 Magic Items for any slots plus a magic weapon. story behind that is we tricked a green dragon (our LG paladin crit bluff and decapitated him...yeah, he had to have a good chat and stuff with his diety) and killed him and before we killed him he told us where his lair was. needless to say, it's an almost endless room full of gold/items/etc. but, so it's not too ridiculous, the dragon put extremely powerful auras around it so there are specific things we can/cannot take. blah...blah...blah....blah.
 
skills i'm known for are perception and insight but that's just because they were high before. i guess i would like to keep them, i had the highest in the party
Ok.  So basically new character creation?  Epic with only 4 items... oof.  You'll need help from others on the items....
(Basically, Bloodiron Weapon.  If you can get Ghostphase +5, go with that.  If you'd be limited to +4, try Flowform?  See if you can get level 26 Iron Armbands of Power, if not go with the level 16 ones and wince.  Cloak of Distortion for your neck slot.  That leaves you with one open item.  Ouch... so many things you want.)

(Skills: yeah, keeping high perception won't be hard.  High insight may require a background.)

Does your DM do themes and/or backgrounds?

PP: The best PP for an Avenger is usually an MC PP.  Ardent Champion doesn't suck, but that's Pursuit only, and I'd be suggesting you go with Unity.

The stock advice is "MC Fighter, go Kensai".  It's not the most optimal advice, but I don't think I was looking at the most optimal party, and so it will work out.  But one of the main draws of "MC Fighter" is the Battle Awareness feat, which grants an MBA.  As a worshiper of the Raven Queen, you can't take Power of Skill, so you have to take Melee Training, which means your MBA does ~3-4 less damage.  But once you're a fighter, you qualify for the feat Slashing Storm, which will be really good for you.

The most swingy choice would be to MC Invoker and take Arbiter of Forgotten Justice.  You may have issues with the "honor a dead god of justice" part of it...  The main draw there is the 16th level feature.  Since Painful Oath adds radiant damage to your first hit each turn, and adding typed damage adds the keyword (Rules Compendium), the 16th level feature basically says "crit on 19s to 20".  Which will be quite often.  But the powers will be difficult to use because I don't think you'll have a holy symbol.

There are two good arcane choices: Artificier to take Battle Engineer, or Wizard to take Simbarch of Aglarond.  Simbarch also has the same implement issue, so I'd bias toward Battle Engineer.  Battle Engineer has a nice daily utility power, but the real draw if Greater Magic Weapon.  It's not a striker power, it's a leader power.  But it's a doozy of a leader power.

So I think I'd suggest Kensai or Battle Engineer.  Any preference?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I should cover your epic destiny: Radiant One, if you can justify it at all, especially went the MC Fighter route and picked up Slashing Storm.  If you do go Radiant One, you want to pick up some way of nearly guarenteeing yourself combat advantage.  Deadly Draw comes to mind, or convince the Cleric to take the Radiant Advantage feat.

The generic option is Destined Scion.  The other Int option is Sage of Ages.  The broken option is Soul of the World, but that's usually for someone who's trying to build to a specific broken combo and isn't relevant here.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

If someone in the party is handing out radiant vulnerability, he could take pervasive light at some point in paragon which will allow all his attacks on targets who have vulnerable radiant do extra damage equal to that vulnerability.
Given the cleric's listed as a battle cleric, I'm not holding out hope that the cleric will turn into a morninglord...  Plus between painful Oath and Soulforged Hammering, most of the attacks will do radiant damage anyway.  Especially if he goes Radiant One: then they all will.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Hm.  DRP calc.  I'm assuming CA here without justification: I really suggest figuring out how you'll have CA most rounds.  That will be a function of your party, ...

Wis should be 16+2+1+1+1+1+1+1=24.  +7 modifier.  Int should be the same.

Overwhelming strike does 2d12+4(paragon Iron Armbands)+5(bloodiron)+7(Wis)+4(Kensai)+7(Int from Radiant One)+7(Wis, Painful Oath)+6(Unity, 2 allies adj), and then procs Slashing Storm for 7(Wis)+7(Int).  So if you hit, you're looking at around 53 damage.  If you crit, that's 11 more damage from maximizing 2[W], ~20 damage from high crit on the fullblade, and then 10d10+7(Radiant One, from the 2nd instance of damage at the start of the target's turn) from the weapon.

Hit: 53 damage.
Crit: 146 damage

Hit Chance: 10(level)+7(Wis)+3(Prof)+3(Expertise)+5(enhancement)+2(CA)+1(Kensai) = +31 vs. AC

DPR: 21st level monsters have ACs around 35.  So you hit on a 4, which means you hit 98% percent of the time assuming oath..  You crit on a 19 or 20, so you crit around 19% of the time.  So you get a "normal hit" around 79% of the time.

0.78 * 53 + 0.19 * 146 = 69

This is right around par for a striker.  This will not blow up encounters spectacularly early, this will not horribly overshadow teammates, and this won't get overshadowed by accident by the fighter. This is just being a striker.

Say something if that's not what you're looking for.  If you're looking to do 100+ DPR, that's possible on a Unity Avenger, but it means that the options get really really limited... and it may not be possible while worshiping the Raven Queen without refluffing.

Your Nova turn will look something like (you oathed on round one and moved adjacent to him, and used Scatter to the Astral Winds to make sure none of the other monsters got in the way of your party surrounding him) so we're in round two):
Soulforge Hammering, Strength of Many, Fury's Advance, Soulforge Hammer's Minor, Slashing Storm.
That has a high probability of dropping a non-brute creature, and could drop a brute if you got a little lucky.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

The best advice I can give you is to listen to what kilpatds tells you, the man's an encyclopedia on avengers. I've created a pursuit avenger but that's not what you're making so I'd be of limited help.



lol i've noticed. He's very helpful
That all looks fine so far kilpatds. My DM is extremely leniant so i'm sure he wouldn't mind if i chose the best options for MC with a fighter while still worshipping the Raven Queen.
Well, there's rather a difference in Kind between something that kills monsters in 2 turns and something that kills them in 4.  Your assassin team mate might get a little annoyed...

Or, if he's focused on stealth and doesn't care about combats, maybe not.  That's why I'm asking.

For example, I left an item out there.  If you wanted more damage, then it could be a dragon shard for ~5 more damage per hit and ~4 more DPR.  But that means it's not a Winged Boot or Head item of "free save vs. dominate" or something else of similar huge levels of utility.  If you could find some lower level items, you could get yourself some items from the "Gifts for the Queen" item set for ~3 more DPR.

I suggested Bloodiron, for ~+50 damage on a crit.  If you instead found a Firewind Blade, you'd do around +13 additional damage on each hit: 5 from the property, 7 from Radiant One.  0.78 * 66 + 0.19 * 108 = 72.  Only 3 more DPR and a lot less swingy.  But it could be considered a bit more cheesy... I don't know how your group would react.

 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

alright. what would you do in my situation Kilpatds? plain and simple. i can get any 4 magic items i want, so "finding" them isn't really an issue lol.
I think I've mostly covered my advice.  I'd suggest you see what you can get out of that, and put an edited character back up for commentary...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

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