Pauper - Retrace Jund

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Despite this forum looking completely dead, I'm going to post this to see if I can spark a discussion regarding it and how to make it better. I found this list on PDCmagic and tooled it around some. It is a blast to play, but there are some snags it hits that can stop it dead.

Here's the list:


The idea is to abuse raven's crime (and to an extent, flame jab) to control the board via recursion of basic lands. Raven's crime is a monster, flame jab not so much (great for dealing with x/1's, however). Tilling treefolk and grim discovery manage your lands, allowing you to grind out CA with raven's crime. Brownscale keeps you alive, and Tusker is great for digging for lands or being a win-con.

Thing's ive considered:
Journey of Discovery
More Burn (lightning bolt et al).
Noxious Revival to re-use blightning/mulch/discovery etc.
Reducing or Removing flame jab.

My biggest problem has been getting the engine started. Either I have lands and no crime, or crime and no lands (or ways to fetch them, which is insane). Of all the recursion tools, grim discovery is at the bottom, as I don't always have a creature and a land available to recur, which is the only way to get real value out of it.

I have plenty of close games, and I've lost a match twice now to topdecked tendrils of corruption where the MBC player was at one, with a land and flame jab at the ready. I really dont like tendrils :0. The deck is getting there, I just need to get the engine more consistant.
Is harvest wurm worth considering?

Noxious Revival may actually be even better than you think here.  If you frequently are having situations where it comes down to your opponent's topdeck and you're about to win....you can use the revival to put a land on top of thier deck to make sure they don't draw anything to swing the game in their favor...Just a thought on an interesting line of play.

I might max out on the number of mulch, though.  It seems like it is your best enabler.  It'll put a retrace card in the graveyard along with putting lands in your hand, it might even be the best card in the deck.  Faithless looting also seems really good.  Maybe cutting two grim discoveries to max out on both much and looting could help more than you'd think?

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Wow, someone's alive on here! Awesome!

Yes to the mulch/looting exchange. Looting, espcially when combined with revival, is probably my best "draw" spell in the deck, letting me stash stuff in my yard until I need it. And i never thought of f**king them with NR, thats golden.

I have looked at harvest wurm a number of times, but haven't tried it yet. I may try swapping out brownscales for some of them to see how they fare; sometimes a 1 or 2 power beater isn't threatening enough. May also replace a tusker as well; that thing in multiples (even when cycling) is a bit expensive for what you get. Brownscales are probably going SB for aggro anyway.

I was also thinking about fireblast and other sac or bounce land spells. tapping for 3, sacing for fireblast and playing a treefolk seems good. not sure.

I also need to come up with a sideboard plan for graveyard hate; I'm formulating a SB that gets rid of most of my GY interactions in favor of a more standard jund build. 
Wow, someone's alive on here! Awesome!

Yes to the mulch/looting exchange. Looting, espcially when combined with revival, is probably my best "draw" spell in the deck, letting me stash stuff in my yard until I need it. And i never thought of f**king them with NR, thats golden.

I have looked at harvest wurm a number of times, but haven't tried it yet. I may try swapping out brownscales for some of them to see how they fare; sometimes a 1 or 2 power beater isn't threatening enough. May also replace a tusker as well; that thing in multiples (even when cycling) is a bit expensive for what you get. Brownscales are probably going SB for aggro anyway.

I was also thinking about fireblast and other sac or bounce land spells. tapping for 3, sacing for fireblast and playing a treefolk seems good. not sure.

I also need to come up with a sideboard plan for graveyard hate; I'm formulating a SB that gets rid of most of my GY interactions in favor of a more standard jund build. 

Yeah, that's why I suggested the wurm, it looks like you may have trouble closing out a game.  Putrid Leech would also do a good job, but it doesn't really have any synergy with the deck.

I don't know how good tusker is in practice in this deck, but I really like him in general.  He does everything.  Late, he's a fatty that'll win in a few swings, early, he is basically a green Divination, that's an instant....and uncounterable.  Heh, yeah, I like him tons, personally.

Sac'ing lands may seem nice, cause you're able to get them back so easy, but you have no way of playing more than 1 land a turn, so you'll end up with card advantage, but you'll likely be behind in the board state.

Do you know about Sakura-Tribe Scout?  I'm not claiming it's the best card ever, but it can be explosive if you have several ravnica bounce lands.  Though, more bounce lands can lead to awkward opening hands and danger vs land destruction.

I wonder if pauper has any cards that look for number of creatures in the graveyard or can reanimate.  I suppose Exhume is a common, but that likely doesn't play well with the whole raven's crime aspect...

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Yeah, finishers are light here, which is why I get blown out by random topdecks even after I've stablized. I may go the retrace/reanimator route, as those two archetypes seem to play well together. I just need to find the synergy somewhere.

There are two reanimation spells that I've found: Exhume and unearth. I've considered both, honestly. For either to be viable, you would need something that can protect itself, preferably with shroud and high toughness (common inkwell leviathan). with any fatty, though, you can t1 ravens crime yourself, t2 exhume. Tusker can cycle himself and be exhumed. The problem with reanimating is that there is nothing explosive to reanimate that can't just be removed. makes me sad, really. However, as a random extra threat package, it might be viable, maybe just to grab a tusker out of the yard or something.

Sakura tribe scout is pretty darn nice, but I don't know what role she would play outside of ramping and taking advantage of bouncelands. 

I love the number of ways this deck can go. I've really been digging to find some crazy synergies for it. 
Ok, so harvest wurm definately gets there. Acts like treefolk 5-8, hits harder and draws removal like a pro. Never sad to see him, and can almost always cast him without issue. He's staying in at a 4-of.

Removed 2 grim discovery for +1 Faithless and +1 Mulch. I quickly found that, with no means to recur creatures, mulch's value plummeted. The crapshoot of what I get from it, coupled with less recursion, made it not worth the mana. Going to try 4/3/3 looting/mulch/discovery and see how that works. Faithless is a 4-of since it lets me dig for answers, and I can pitch land safely since I have SO MUCH RECURSION. SO MUCH.

With Harvest Wurm being a bit fragile, Grim discovery is probably going to be "on" more often than not. I went through both in one game and really wished I had another (all my tuskers were in the yard and opp had no cards in hand).

Krosan Tuskers are staying 4-of. They really are as good as you image. I must have just had some bad games.

Sadly, Noxious Revival is uncommon. /sadface

I think I went down to two or three flame jab. Might go to two for sure, and put 2 in the side vs. weenies.

Raven's crime is still the most ruthless card in this deck, bar none. Blightning is a close second. I can't believe blightning was printed common :O

Now I have to figure out my sideboard. From my matchups, I know:
-I hate Bojuka Bog
-I hate Relic of P.
-Did I mention I hate Bojuka Bog?
-I really do.

Cards I want for SB:
4 Ancient Grudge - Does bad things to affinity, can take care of RoP if I catch them tapped out. Nukes Prophetic Prism, hosing Post decks.
4 Golgari Brownscale - Swap in for Harvest Wurm vs. Aggro.

The rest I'm not sure about. I've only played one WW, and 2 Storm decks, the rest have been Post and MBC. I'm new to the Pauper meta, so my knowledge of sideboard tech is limited. If there is something that lets me shuffle my yard back in to my library at instant speed, I'd love to know about it.
 
Glad to hear harvest wurm is working out.  I always knew there'd be a deck that made great use of him.

Hm, I would have thought mulch would have been awesome no matter what, but I suppose something like Unburial Rites is really needed to make sure no matter what you mill it will be good.

I think Repopulate is the only "real" way to shuffle your graveyard.  I don't think Feldon's Cane is pauper legal on MTGO, sadly.

If you're taking out flame jabs, you may want to slide in a couple of lightning bolts to make up for the loss in amount of removal....maybe

I thought this before, but didn't suggest it because it could be taking the deck down a completely different path, but.....Rogue Elephant?

If Harvest Wurm is dying frequently and proving to be a good beater, then maybe you should try out Unearth afterall.  Yes, it doesn't give the card advantage that grim discovery will...but it will save a good bit of mana.  You could grim discovery are harvest wurm and net an extra card, or you could just unearth it and save 3 mana.  It does suck that you can't use it to return Krosan tusker, but you may want to test it to see if it's worth it?


As for dodging graveyard hate, I think you were right with your sideboarding into a more traditional jund build.  Perhaps this is where Putrid Leech could shine?

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
The real question here is: How do I keep forgetting about Putrid Leech? I think the only way to dodge yard hate is to side out key GY strategies (grim discovery, treefolk, maybe looting?) and side in some good ole beaters. Raven's crime will stay as an off-chance way to use my spare lands.

Rogue elephant would be sick if I could t1 elephant, t2 crime, t3 wurm, but I worry that he'll just get bolted and I'll look dumb .





could be a deck though :D
 
The real question here is: How do I keep forgetting about Putrid Leech? I think the only way to dodge yard hate is to side out key GY strategies (grim discovery, treefolk, maybe looting?) and side in some good ole beaters. Raven's crime will stay as an off-chance way to use my spare lands.

Rogue elephant would be sick if I could t1 elephant, t2 crime, t3 wurm, but I worry that he'll just get bolted and I'll look dumb .





could be a deck though :D
 

Oh snap, I forgot about fallow wurm.  That's probably better than rogue elephant.  It's out of bolt range and you don't need to use a forest (which you only have 6 of).

Yeah, that might be a good finisher...

I don't know if sideboarding out the looting is good for 'getting rid of gy strategies', it's also just plain good for digging, especially in Jund, where you don't have much card draw.

I'd think grim discovery, flame jab, treefolk, and mulch (and maybe the harvest wurm) would be the main components to 'next level' people who want to target your graveyard.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Duh, siding out mulch is a way better choice than looting. So, rough draft SB would be:

Ancient Grudge (Affinity/Post)
Golgari Brownscale (Goblins/WW)
Putrid Leech (Vs GY hate)
Lightning Bolt (vs. Gy hate)

Numbers are up in the air. Duress may make the list vs. Combo.

Wish I had time to play last night, hopefully will get in some games tonight and see how adjustments worked out.

Wish I knew why pauper is a dead dog on these boards, it really works out the ol' brain muscle.

 
Duh, siding out mulch is a way better choice than looting. So, rough draft SB would be:

Ancient Grudge (Affinity/Post)
Golgari Brownscale (Goblins/WW)
Putrid Leech (Vs GY hate)
Lightning Bolt (vs. Gy hate)

Numbers are up in the air. Duress may make the list vs. Combo.

Wish I had time to play last night, hopefully will get in some games tonight and see how adjustments worked out.

Wish I knew why pauper is a dead dog on these boards, it really works out the ol' brain muscle.

 

It isn't pauper's fault, it's just that the boards as a whole are pretty much dead.

First, there was the gleemax debacle about a year before v3 was released (what 4-5 years ago now).  That hit the community pretty hard. 

Then, about 3 years ago, they switched to the current version of the forums.  That really slammed the community and very few people stayed.  Some boards fared slightly better than others, but they all have much much less traffic than they did in years past.  The MTGO forums aren't doing the worst (I think), but they certainly aren't doing the best.  When you can't even get people to post about random stuff in MTGO general, it's hard to have a critical mass of people so that a fraction of them will also check out the deckbuilding subforums.  Added to that the fact that MTGO-format subforums have always been pretty sad.  Part of that is likely because traffic is directed to the MTG side of the forums for any format that exists in both mediums, leaving the MTGO side with only these type of niche formats, which aren't ridiculously popular to begin with....


This thread's been really cool, though.  Probably one of the best the MTGO deckbuilding forums (all of them) has ever had, even though it's only two people....




btw, I still think fallow wurm would be sick.  It passes the lightning bolt test.  Even the lowly Wildfire emissary was an all-star back in the day, simply because it could pass that test (I suppose passing the Swords to Plowshares test helps too).

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Im going to give fallow wurm a try for sure, I'm just trying to find out where I can fit him in.

He will probably be sideboard vs. control, since flame jab in that matchup is pretty bad. I'd rather discard a land and plop a 4/4 beatstick. Ravens crime, harvest wurm and fallow wurm should shift the control matchup in my favor.

He'd be pretty sweet vs. graveyard hate too. Even though I'm still pitching a land, he's a better outlet than raven's crime or flame jab, since when those get exiled, all the land in my hand look pretty sad. He'd get swapped in for Harvest wurm, since that card's dead if I can't keep a graveyard around.

I've been toying around with Dead // Gone in my board over Bolt. The Gone portion gives me 4 more outs to things like Ulamog's crusher, razor golem, and other annoying 4+ toughness or regenerating creatures. paired with Raven's crime, it works really well >:D. One of these days I'll remember to copy my exact list down from MTGO and post it here, since the first one is way outdated and I can't remember all the small changes I made.

The 4/3/3 split of Looting/Discovery/Mulch is perfect. Played vs. WW this morning before work. 2nd game had me starting with 5 very bad cards, but throwing out a sacrificial Golgari Brownscale netted me a dredged Looting, and that kickstarted the deck like a champ. Even with 2 razor golems and a loyal cathar, he couldn't kill me before I off'd all of his threats and shreded his hand. Brownscale really messes up aggro.

I made one gloriously stupid play that match, in game 1. Turn 1 Flame Jab his dude. Turn 2 Mulch, getting 2 Golgari Rot farms in hand. Turn 3 play a land, retrace flame jab pitching rot farm, and then like a retard I cast Harvest Wurm. Looked at the trigger on the stack, and cried . Still Won, thanks to WW playing like 90% x/1 creatures, and me having terminates for his Guardian of the Guildpacts.

Your input has been invaluable. Thanks man!
Oh no problem.  This deck was super cool


Yeah, I'm not sure where to cut for fallow wurm either.  Maybe a single tusker and single treefolk for the one wurm?

I wanted to say yavimaya elder, because it can be a bit slow....but, I assume it's also insane in this deck.  It's something aggro likely won't want to attack into, if they do, it's effectively a removal spell + massive card advantage.  It's you're only real way to stock up on lots of lands to get an engine going (I think?, maybe mulch is the other).  How about just asking yourself whenever you play the elder "Would I prefer a 4/4 here?"  That should probably give you an answer :P

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
I think I'll try a few games with fallow wurm instead of elder and see how it goes.

Right now, the Elder is just to stock up on basics. I don't think i've ever done anything other than play him and sac immediately. That said, the 1GG cost has kept him in my hand some games for longer than I would like, and I've won games without him, so who knows? 
I think I'll try a few games with fallow wurm instead of elder and see how it goes.

Right now, the Elder is just to stock up on basics. I don't think i've ever done anything other than play him and sac immediately. That said, the 1GG cost has kept him in my hand some games for longer than I would like, and I've won games without him, so who knows? 

Heh, I just realized that elder is basically a Tidings 3GG for "drawing" 2 lands and one random card


Oops, forgot tidings draws 4 cards...I guess that's why people play blue instead of green :X

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
So, Fallow Wurm  didn't perform as well as we thought. There is enough non-damage removal that he usually never made it to my next turn, and then I was down a creature and a land, so he's going to get scrapped.

I was, however, browsing for more CA'ish creatures, and stumbled upon this gem: Horned Kavu. a 3/4 for RG? sign me up! Return one of my land-retrieving critters to my hand so I can use it again?! F**K YES. Didn't acquire any yet, but I feel like a Treefolk/Harvest Wurm/Kavu mix will greatly increase the amount of recursion I have. Not even worried about the two color cost, because I will never be playing him on turn two. Because of the stipulation that I already have to have a creature in play, He will most likely only show up as a 2-of. If that works out, I'll try 3, but no more than that. I will try him in place of the elders.

Can't wait to see what sort of fun commons AVR brings us! 
So, Fallow Wurm  didn't perform as well as we thought. There is enough non-damage removal that he usually never made it to my next turn, and then I was down a creature and a land, so he's going to get scrapped.

I was, however, browsing for more CA'ish creatures, and stumbled upon this gem: Horned Kavu. a 3/4 for RG? sign me up! Return one of my land-retrieving critters to my hand so I can use it again?! F**K YES. Didn't acquire any yet, but I feel like a Treefolk/Harvest Wurm/Kavu mix will greatly increase the amount of recursion I have. Not even worried about the two color cost, because I will never be playing him on turn two. Because of the stipulation that I already have to have a creature in play, He will most likely only show up as a 2-of. If that works out, I'll try 3, but no more than that. I will try him in place of the elders.

Can't wait to see what sort of fun commons AVR brings us! 

Heh, that's funny that your 4/4 is instantly blasted.  It's like a 3 mana duress, no?

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Yeah. Normally I wouldn't care that a creature is a removal magnet, but losing the land hurts too much.

I'm really excited to try out the Kavu though. 
Yeah. Normally I wouldn't care that a creature is a removal magnet, but losing the land hurts too much.

I'm really excited to try out the Kavu though. 

Yeah, I've always like kavu.  Is there a cheap common that deals more than 1 damage when it comes into play?  That might be nice to return.  Of course, the treefolk and harvest wurm could already be far more than enough synergy with the kavu.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
So I played about 6 games over the weekend, and I learned a LOT.

1). Supporting 3 colors in Pauper is hard.  I lost a lot of games to my own manabase.
2). Too many conditional creatures gums up my hand. I love Harvest Wurm and Horned Kavu, but getting 2 Kavu's and a Wurm in your opening hand with no way to pitch lands feels really, really bad.
3). I wish I could have 8 Faithless Lootings. They are that good.

I think I'm going to revert to the original formula and try again. I think I've made too many changes, and the core of the deck is suffering. It will be nice to evaluate the original 75 with the perspective of  the interactions we've discovered, though.

P.S. I've got another brew that I'm going to start a new thread for (on the off chance that it attracts some attention). Its even got a clever name! JOY. If you feel like chiming it, I'd love it. 
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