Miracle Mechanic [Avacyn Restored]

94 posts / 0 new
Last post
The reminder text doesn't have you reveal the card as you draw it so how can one verify that it was the first card drawn?

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out



**SPOILER** please!


 

Wizards of the Coast: NOT ANYMORE outsourced to Elbonia

The reminder text doesn't have you reveal the card as you draw it so how can one verify that it was the first card drawn?



Sylvan Library

Wizards of the Coast: NOT ANYMORE outsourced to Elbonia

Reminder text is not rules text.
Good question.  You cast the card with the miracle cost as soon as you draw it, so assuming players hold their cards in one hand and draw with the other (I mean no disrespect to any one handed or armed players), one would draw a miracle card and then just put it down right away announcing the casting of the spell.  It would seem extremely fishy to me to have someone draw a card, shuffle their hand a little, then say, "Oh, I want to cast Thunderous Wrath for its miracle cost."

Edit:  Alright, what about this:  When I play with Grave Titan, I usually represent my Zombie tokens with one token that has a die on it that represents how many of those tokens I have.  The group of people I play with use similar methods for tokens, as it tends to keep the board free of clutter.  However, it is completely up to my opponents to have me represent my tokens in a different way, because, as players, they have a right to know information about the tokens, most commonly in this example which ones have summoning sickness and which ones do not.  Now, as far as miracle--and that other card that was linked up there--is there some sort of rule that states that all players must be able to distinguish between current cards in hand and ones just drawn, like maybe cards freshly drawn have to go to the front or the back of your hand?  It looks stupid just typing it out, but now I'm very curious as to how players and judges are going to enforce this.  I mean, I myself organize my hand by mana cost, and when a new card goes into my hand I don't always put it in the same spot.  But depending on what other miracle cards we will have, I might draw a card and absent-mindedly file it in its "rightful place" in my hand while contemplating whether or not I want to cast it via miracle, and I can see where that would be very confusing, and maybe even rage inducing, depending on who I'm playing with and what the board looks like (oh, Riku of Two Reflections, you are my favorite general right now, but everyone hates you).

Rules Advisor

My guess with Miracle is that is will have some sort of replacement effect that has you reveal it, then a triggered ability letting you cast it for its Miracle cost.  If you put it into your hand without revealing it, it's too late.

Edit:  Alright, what about this:  When I play with Grave Titan, I usually represent my Zombie tokens with one token that has a die on it that represents how many of those tokens I have.  The group of people I play with use similar methods for tokens, as it tends to keep the board free of clutter.  However, it is completely up to my opponents to have me represent my tokens in a different way, because, as players, they have a right to know information about the tokens, most commonly in this example which ones have summoning sickness and which ones do not.  Now, as far as miracle--and that other card that was linked up there--is there some sort of rule that states that all players must be able to distinguish between current cards in hand and ones just drawn, like maybe cards freshly drawn have to go to the front or the back of your hand?  It looks stupid just typing it out, but now I'm very curious as to how players and judges are going to enforce this.  I mean, I myself organize my hand by mana cost, and when a new card goes into my hand I don't always put it in the same spot.  But depending on what other miracle cards we will have, I might draw a card and absent-mindedly file it in its "rightful place" in my hand while contemplating whether or not I want to cast it via miracle, and I can see where that would be very confusing, and maybe even rage inducing, depending on who I'm playing with and what the board looks like (oh, Riku of Two Reflections, you are my favorite general right now, but everyone hates you).

Once a card hits the hand, it is indistinguishable from other cards in the hand.

402.3. A player may arrange his or her hand in any convenient fashion and look at it as much as he or she wishes. A player can’t look at the cards in another player’s hand but may count those cards at any time.

DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
My guess with Miracle is that is will have some sort of replacement effect that has you reveal it, then a triggered ability letting you cast it for its Miracle cost.  If you put it into your hand without revealing it, it's too late.



Yeah, I can see it working something like madness does.
How about we wait until we know the actual rules for the keyword (and potential other rules to support it) before speculating that it maybe doesn't work?
Do you guys think that whatever they do to make this work will also finally make Jandor's Ring work in a verifyable way?
I was there at PAX. The exact text said, "If this is the first card you have drawn this turn, you may cast this for it's miracle cost." They also have an odd card frame.

This is going to cause conflict EVERYWHERE. Thank Avacyn for the Return to Ravnica announcment, or I'd be super-duper pissed.

@Macd80: Again, this is just reminder text. Not rules text.



Quoting from another thread:


Matt Tabak on Twitter:

"You reveal the card when you draw it, which causes miracle to trigger. When it resolves, you may cast the card."

"@TabakRules Can you choose not to reveal it?"
"Sure. But that means you're not casting it for its miracle cost."

[<o>]
There should be a feature article up tonight to go over the new mechanics. Until that time, there's not much of a point in speculating.

Wizards.Com Boards Net Rep

DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.



**SPOILER** please!


 

I know this is a mite off-topic, but I think having "New Mechanic: Avacyn Restored" in the title sort of suggests that here be spoilers...
When you ask a rules question, please autocard. Type [c]Doom Blade[/c] to get Doom Blade.
What Color Am I?
I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
Can you play a Sorcery with Miracle if it's the first card you draw on your opponent's turn?
yes, Miracle lets you ignore the normal timing restrictions
(well, not all of them)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Here's the quote from the article on the WotC site...

As you draw an instant or sorcery with miracle, if it's the first card you've drawn this turn, you can immediately reveal it. When you do so, you may cast it for its miracle cost. It doesn't matter whether it's an instant or sorcery; if you choose to cast it, you do so right away, even if it's at a time (such as your draw step) when you couldn't normally cast it. You're not required to reveal a miracle card, even if you could pay for it. You can always choose to just draw it as normal.

A miscommunication prevented the official rules for miracle from going up on the website last night. That issue is being addressed, and more information should become available on DailyMTG.com in the next twenty-four hours.


In the meantime, I'll share the offical rules for miracle so that the conversation in this forum can stay on track.


702.91. Miracle

702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."


702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.



Sorry for the confusion.

Del Laugel

Editing manager, Magic TCG

I've been optimistic about everything, but I don't like the mojo surrounding this mechanic. WotC has always done a good job at trying not to leave anything up to "just trusting" the opponent. Hence when you use a spell or ability to search for something specific, you have to reveal it, etc. How 702.91a is written I don't think it's a good idea. Now EVERY CARD your opponet draws, you have to track where they put it in their hand for when they say "Yeah, I think I will cast it now at it's Miracle cost".

There just is no cussion between drawing this card and the card "being in a players hand" where this mechanic is designed to work. I'm VERY relaxed in my gameplay, even in tourneys. I've won games from "mistakes"people have made and let them take it back if there was an "over sight" or something. But once the card goes from top of deck to the players hand... I will be hard pressed to be okay with letting them play the Miracle mechanic after that. 

I LIKE that 702.91a says "as you draw it", but "reveal this card from your hand" will make an easy argument of "I drew the card, seen what it was, and want to use the Miracle mechanic". It's too easy (except in something liek MTGO) for people to use the Miracle mechanic on a card they had in their hand countless turns.

It should read something like "as you draw it, but before you put the card into your hand" that way it falls on the responsibility of the person with the Miracle cards to verify the legitimacy and not fall on the opponent to "trust" the other.
I've been optimistic about everything, but I don't like the mojo surrounding this mechanic. WotC has always done a good job at trying not to leave anything up to "just trusting" the opponent. Hence when you use a spell or ability to search for something specific, you have to reveal it, etc. How 702.91a is written I don't think it's a good idea. Now EVERY CARD your opponet draws, you have to track where they put it in their hand for when they say "Yeah, I think I will cast it now at it's Miracle cost".

No you don't. If they move it to the other cards in their hand, they're past the "as you draw it" stage, and it's too late to reveal. They need to reveal it before it touches the other cards in their hand.



All Generalizations are Bad
I've been optimistic about everything, but I don't like the mojo surrounding this mechanic. WotC has always done a good job at trying not to leave anything up to "just trusting" the opponent. Hence when you use a spell or ability to search for something specific, you have to reveal it, etc. How 702.91a is written I don't think it's a good idea. Now EVERY CARD your opponet draws, you have to track where they put it in their hand for when they say "Yeah, I think I will cast it now at it's Miracle cost".

here is how it works

as the card leaves the library, it is in your hand and you can reveal and cast it for the miracle cost.
as soon as it is with the other cards in your hand the draw is over and the miracle has passed.

there is no need to trust your opponent, the rules are quite clear on this.
granted, they could be worded more easier to understand for people not intimately familiar with the rules (it took me a few times rereading it as well ;))
proud member of the 2011 community team
Also, the rules text clearly states:

"If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack"

That means that if they ever move it to their hand face down, they can't cast it for the miracle cost.  They can't play a card that is not currently revealed for it's miracle cost.
But once the card goes from top of deck to the players hand... I will be hard pressed to be okay with letting them play the Miracle mechanic after that.

That's perfectly fine. In fact, that'll be the way that Judges will be enforcing it: once the card touches the other cards in your hand (or could otherwise be mixed up with them), it's too late to reveal it for Miracle.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I suspect people will play this like they play Delver of Secrets.  They should look at the card on top of their library, then either reveal it or put it in their hand.  If they simply put it in their hand, they have missed the trigger.
Also, the rules text clearly states:

"If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack"

That means that if they ever move it to their hand face down, they can't cast it for the miracle cost.  They can't play a card that is not currently revealed for it's miracle cost.



I don't think that is a clear argument against what I said...




Core Rulebook

402. Hand
402.1. The hand is where a player holds cards that have been drawn. Cards can be put into a player’s
hand by other effects as well. At the beginning of the game, each player draws a hand of seven
cards.



No card is drawn "face up" then goes face down once it goes to their hand. They Draw the card, it's in their hand, it's the first card they drew, they reveal the card and declare they are playing the spell using the Miracle mechanic. There is nothing that states once the card is in your hand you can no longer play it. The Rulebook states that the "Hand" is where the player holds the cards they have draw, this is where the Miracle mechanic states you are to reveal the card from. 

I know you are trying to state how it's supposed to be played. I understand how it's supposed to be played. I'm just saying the wording of the rules doesn't protect against the opponent drawing a card and quickly putting it back out claiming its the one they just drew. 






there is no need to trust your opponent, the rules are quite clear on this.
granted, they could be worded more easier to understand for people not intimately familiar with the rules (it took me a few times rereading it as well ;))




^^ TY, this is pretty much what I'm referring to and basically all I'm saying. If there's no "disclaimer", how many times do you think it will happen where the person will draw the card, then declare they are playing the Miracle mechanic?

 
Choosing to use the miracle ability begins with moving the top card of the library to their hand revealed.  Therefore, moving it to the hand concealed is choosing not to use the miracle ability.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

I agree with Argus_Panoptes  it only makes sense, if you put it in your hand then it might be void... so you just use it for it's miracle cost.  one way to look at it is when you get it in your opening hand obviously you won't be able to play it... and if you play it from the top of the library it only makes sense that if you don't want to or cannot use it that turn then you don't have to.
I know you are trying to state how it's supposed to be played. I understand how it's supposed to be played. I'm just saying the wording of the rules doesn't protect against the opponent drawing a card and quickly putting it back out claiming its the one they just drew.

The "game rules" may not protect against that, but the "floor rules" will. If a player puts the card they're drawing in with the rest of the cards in their hand, no matter how briefly, they're not getting a miracle.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

So, to clarify.

If I draw a miracle card, I have to reveal it as a draw it. I could not, for example, look at my draw, leave it face down below my hand to show that it is the card I drew this turn and play it during the second main phase?

If you need a full hypothetical: let's say I'm running a delver deck with Temporal Mastery. I have two flipped Delvers facing down a spirit token with sword of war a peace on it. I draw a temporal mastery. I don't want to reveal it as the information could effect my opponents blocks/removal (considering that he may not survive two swings, but could kill me off the next turn without blocks), but I do want to play it during my second main phase.

Is there any way to make it into (and beyond) the first main phase without revealing it? As long as it remains clear that it is the card I drew this turn, of course.  
So, to clarify.

If I draw a miracle card, I have to reveal it as a draw it. I could not, for example, look at my draw, leave it face down below my hand to show that it is the card I drew this turn and play it during the second main phase?

If you need a full hypothetical: let's say I'm running a delver deck with Temporal Mastery. I have two flipped Delvers facing down a spirit token with sword of war a peace on it. I draw a temporal mastery. I don't want to reveal it as the information could effect my opponents blocks/removal (considering that he may not survive two swings, but could kill me off the next turn without blocks), but I do want to play it during my second main phase.

Is there any way to make it into (and beyond) the first main phase without revealing it? As long as it remains clear that it is the card I drew this turn, of course.  



The key here is right in the reminder text "YOu can cast it WHEN you draw it"
… and then, the squirrels came.
This is the relevant rule from earlier in the thread:

702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

This is not the relevant rule:

Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand sometime after you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Okay, I have a question. So the Miracle ability is obviously a replacement effect that modifies the way a card is drawn and gives you a choice. The second sentence, though, reads like a triggered ability. But there's not a triggered ability baked in there, is there?

It's like they took the implementation of madness and crammed it into one ability. Can it work as just one ability?
Okay, I have a question. So the Miracle ability is obviously a replacement effect that modifies the way a card is drawn and gives you a choice. The second sentence, though, reads like a triggered ability. But there's not a triggered ability baked in there, is there?

It's like they took the implementation of madness and crammed it into one ability. Can it work as just one ability?



From the earlier post by WotC_dlaugel:











702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability 






 
So, yes, there is a triggered ability baked in there.
 
So does that mean you can wait for your opponent to reveal their Miracle, put it's trigger on the stack, and then you can mill them for 1 (e.g. Goulcaller's Bell), and they wont get to cast it since the trigger that allows them to cast it hasnt resolved yet?

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
So does that mean you can wait for your opponent to reveal their Miracle, put it's trigger on the stack, and then you can mill them for 1 (e.g. Goulcaller's Bell), and they wont get to cast it since the trigger that allows them to cast it hasnt resolved yet?

~ Tim 



No.  They will reveal it at the same time they draw it so you would have to discard it from their hand.
by the time you get priority they either have already cast it as a miracle or put it in their hand
proud member of the 2011 community team
by the time you get priority they either have already cast it as a miracle or put it in their hand



There is a trigger, at which point you can respond before they cast the spell. But the trigger is dependant on them revealing the card. If they don't reveal it, there's no trigger and it just goes in their hand.

Rules Advisor from 8-26-09 to 1-31-14, reinstated (reactivated?) on 9-24-14 (been seeing more FNM, prerelease, and release events as of late)
Joined the crowd and got an Avatar from zammm's Avatar Workshop on 5-6-2012

Khans of Tarkir Clan Quiz
After three iterations of taking the quiz, it says each time that I'm Temur, the clan. Which is funny because the dual-color tests still yield the same two results as before.

That "Dual Colors" personality test thing
IMAGE(http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20806.jpg)

I am Black/Green

Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!

Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

I am both selfish and instinctive. I value growth and community, as long as they favour my own objectives; I enjoy nature, and I particularly enjoy watching parts of nature die. At best, I am resilient and tenacious; at worst, I'm uncontrollable and destructive.

Oh, but wait, there were multiple answers that fit my thoughts to some questions. What colors did they say I was?

IMAGE(http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg)

I am Blue/Green

I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.

by the time you get priority they either have already cast it as a miracle or put it in their hand

Not quite accurate.

By the time you get priority the card is in their hand. If they revealed it, the cast-it trigger will be on the stack--the card itself is still in their hand and revealed at that point. You can respond before they cast it (by responding to the cast-it trigger)--you just can't respond in between learning what the card is and it being in their hand, since the two happen simultaneously.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I've been away from this forum too long ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
So does this mean you can respond to the trigger by making them discard the card, before the trigger that allows them to cast it resolves? 
(of course, if it is an Instant, they could respond to the discard spell/ability by casting it for it's normal cost)

~ Tim 
 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Sure. There's not a lot of instant-timing discard though.
All Generalizations are Bad
Sign In to post comments