AVR Spoilers Discussion

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Demonlord of Ashmouth - 2BB
Creature - Demon
Flying Undying
When ~ etb, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice another creature.
5/4

Thunderous Blast - (cost unknown)
Instant
~ deals 5 damage to target creature or player.
Miracle R - you may play this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if its the first card drawn this turn.

Silverblade Paladin - 1WW
Creature - Human Knight
Soulbond - you may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield. They remain paired as long as you control both of them.
As long as ~ is paired with another creature, they both have double strike.
2/2
Seluna, Host of Herons - 2GWW
Legendary Creature - Angel
Flying, hexproof.
Spells and abilities played by your opponent can't cause you to sacrifice creatures.
Last post should be "Sigarda", prevents sacrifice of permanents, and is 5/5. I'll fix when I'm not on my phone.

Also Hook is Ravnica.
Yeah, I expect even more games decided by drop that, stick a Sword, Control player scoops.

Because Control decks, not aggressive Tempo decks that need control to rein them in, are the menace right now.

Hexproof is a terrible mechanic.
Nice to have Momentary Blink back, after a fashion.
Yeah, I expect even more games decided by drop that, stick a Sword, Control player scoops. Because Control decks, not aggressive Tempo decks that need control to rein them in, are the menace right now. Hexproof is a terrible mechanic.



Agree that tempo, especially UW tempo decks, are something that simply isn't on R & D's radar when developiong. However, I doubt this angel is going to fit in Delver decks or any other tempo deck. At best the proper reaction to this card is "hey, another Geist blocker that can't be Vapor Snagged".

Is Hook, therefore Ravnica, the next block? If it is... sigh
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
That demon is so frustratingly bad.
The Thunderous Blast costs 6 (4RR). I hate the mechanic, as it not only reminds me of delver (oh hey, check out this blind flip on turn 2, good luck doing anything with this extreme pressure) but it'll also be a nightmare during release night where you have people "oh, I drew this card but I put it in my hand, moved past my upkeep, and am now in my main phase. Can I do it anyway." Hell no, but because it'll be a lower REL tournament, I'll probably be forced to let you do it anyway. 

Hexproof is so stupid, and I'm sick of seeing it. the Angel costs 5 mana, 2GWW and is a  5/5. I am NOT happy about this card, but it'll obviously be something you have to pick up- Naya Pod will want it, and GW has suddenly become a deck again.

That demon is pretty sick. It'll see play in Zombies for sure, and I'm considering playing it in Legacy.

And I'm surprised nobody's even mentioned Banding 2.0

@Javert - yeah, the next block is Ravnica. Whats wrong with that? I loved Ravnica. If not for the original Ravnica block, I probably wouldn't be playing Magic today. Sure, the revists are going to get old if its every other block (if they do another one in the next 3 blocks I'll be dissapointed) but for now I'm okay with it.

(at)MrEnglish22

Silverblade Paladin looks like he's trying to increase  Angelic Destiny's influence.
@Javert - yeah, the next block is Ravnica. Whats wrong with that? I loved Ravnica. If not for the original Ravnica block, I probably wouldn't be playing Magic today. Sure, the revists are going to get old if its every other block (if they do another one in the next 3 blocks I'll be dissapointed) but for now I'm okay with it.



Ok I got quite cynical about revisiting planes after Scars block. If Ravnica gets treated like Mirrodin, prepare for Wizards claiming that Mortify / Putrety / Remand / Dark Confidant didn't feel like Ravnica at all and that the success was all about Simic Sky Swallower / Borborygmos / Autochton Wurm so we will receive power creeping versions of the last ones and none of the former and stuff like tokencraft and multicolor cry as the mechanics. I really hope I am wrong on this one.

If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited


What sort of deck would you run ashmouth demon in in legacy?



Legacy Zombies. I'm working on Sam Blacks build for right now, and have been looking into other options for Tombstalker. If you haven't seen the deck, it uses Gravecrawler and Bloodghast with sacrifice effects (primarily Golbin Bombardment) To do shenanigains.
EDIT; and yes, I'm playing Zombies in both Legacy and Standard right now, in an attempt to return to my favorite tribe in Magic, and my roots (the first deck I ever built was mono-black that shifted to Zombies when Onslaught released). Can you guess what I've been trying to make work in Modern?

@Javert -- I agree that they missed out on a lot of really cool stuff for Mirrodin, but I feel that was mostly to avoid printing more broken cards. While I don't expect a reprint of Bob Confidant, I'd expect Wizards to at least maintain some sort of guild-color feel to the block, except there will be more white/blue spirits, blue/black zombies, and white/green wolves. While those things weren't popular during the last Ravnica, they all showed up (Watchwolf was the only Wolf) and if you read the books, they ended with a large number of spirits taking up inhabitance in Ravnica (which fits nicely with Innistrads spirits theme)
Of course, they're also redoing what many (including yours truly) to be the greatest block in all of Magic. So I've got high expectations.

(at)MrEnglish22

Not sure about you guys, but I actually like Sigarda and I think it's more neat for the control deck in a matchup since it bulwarks shutouts and is sizable enough to eat tokens. I also like Restoration Angel because it's Galepowder Mage 5-8 for me ^^

I'm really interested in the interaction between Delver and miracles though. It has potential to be better than equipment delver decks since most of the deck is instants and sorcerys.
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I don't really see him (Demonlord of Ashmouth) being as good in a format with path and swords.


Especially since you have to sac two creatures to get full value.  You have to sac for his undying too.  Yuck.

Pod might like Restoration Angel. 

Silverblade Paladin.. hooray, white needed more cheap, stupidly powerful beaters.

Also, Sigarda.  GW seems like it'll be a thing, or more likely, Bant.

Interesting point about the Miracle thing, Wynzerman, but it seems super iffy in a deck packing so many cantrips.  That and Thunderous Wrath (and I presume most every Miracle card) is basically a dead card if drawn in your opener..

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
I really wish they'd kept miracle less OMFG AWESOME and made it playable as a card. A 4 for 4 burn card with a miracle at 1 would be cool.

It really needed to fit into sligh as a burn card, to be honest... so even that'd have been suboptimal. Making it uncastable hardcast-wise is just so... yuck. 
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
It wouldn't have been straight up 4 for 4. It would have been 5 for 4 hardcast, because of the Miracle option. Its similar to how they cost Cycling Spells.

As for Demonlord, he's just as good, if not better, than Tombstalker in Legacy. You can only cast it for 2BB compared to Tomby's BB, but you don't exile cards which might be important (gravecrawlers) and you don't really want it in matchups where they have path anyway.
On the (off) topic of legacy, Miracle with Brainstorm will be pretty sick. 

(at)MrEnglish22


Wizards don't want skill to be key I guess. Making top decks even more important than they were before, and more hexproof rubbish?

I don't like the mechanics really.

However I reckon the rest of the set is going to be less annoying than these cards, since that shouldn't be hard.
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It could very well have been, if you look at the some of the older stuff and the need to make cards playable. 4 damage is good at 3, playable at 4. It'd need a downside, but "a heavy red cost" is plenty. Maybe they didn't want to add more constructed-relevatant burn to the game, but if they did it'd have been within the bounds of the game to use a heavy read investment be the downside not a mana cost that makes it unusable. 
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
I don't really care for any card at this point other than the Paladin (and that depends if Soulbond creatures can be paired up w/ non-Soulbond creatures). But I can just imagine dropping Hero of Oxid Ridge/Hero of Bladehold after Paladin and swinging for 14. Either that or pairing it up with Delver to shorten the clock. Turn 3, Delver's potentially done 9 damage on it's own. Turn 4, Vapor Snag and deal 10 for the win.

Team PMP - Practice Makes Perfect

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Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.

Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

I don't really care for any card at this point other than the Paladin (and that depends if Soulbond creatures can be paired up w/ non-Soulbond creatures). But I can just imagine dropping Hero of Oxid Ridge/Hero of Bladehold after Paladin and swinging for 14. Either that or pairing it up with Delver to shorten the clock. Turn 3, Delver's potentially done 9 damage on it's own. Turn 4, Vapor Snag and deal 10 for the win.

I can almost guarantee already paired creatures will not be able to soulbond with creatures entering the battlefield.

another, adj. Used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.



When the soulbound ability says "pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield", the "another" implies that both are unpaired in plain, ordinary English. With R&D spending so much time focusing on legibility of cards and intuitive play, I have a hard time seeing Soulbound working in any way that flies in the face of a common English word (that is regularly used to mean that in the game as it is).
I'm too tired; someone else write up an essay on why Miracle is a horrible mechanic, please? Or at least the outline of main points and a special entry on why it means WotC is still sucking Blue off more and more as time goes by?

Appreciate it, thanks, 'cause I haven't had a day off in a while and just do not have the energy right now to do such a rant justice.


Hexproof, however, is a fine mechanic IMO. They just need to stop printing Equipment that makes Rancor and Armadillo Cloak jealous, for the love of God; stupid swords are just bull**** in every way imaginable, especially with TONS of dedicated 1-drops available (though again, THEY aren't the problem), and it's just speeding up the meta even more, and...

And now I'm awake, dangit. It's like experiencing Pokemon or 3.5 all over again, where you realize that the people who are paid to crunch the numbers and keep the Balance in any form of Competitive Environment for this subject matter are deliberately choosing to let Balance go **** itself. If a random guy like myself, who has to split his time between work, home, school, and hobbies can quickly understand why X or Y is a terrible idea, one has to assume the someone who does nothing with a large chunk of their time but study this stuff can only be ignoring all of it purposely.

And that makes me hate them, so very, very much. It's also the reason why I don't play Pokemon or 4th Edition anymore, or spend my money on them, either. WotC, I feel, is just constantly feeding me reasons to not give them my money, as much as I would like to continue doing so, and that's just a shame, IMO; I'm a pretty damn loyal customer if they'd just stop sucking so much.
Resident Logic Cannon
The only color that can manipulate the top card of your deck in Standard right now is Blue.

Ergo,... 
Resident Logic Cannon
The only color that can manipulate the top card of your deck in Standard right now is Blue.

Ergo,... 



Every color can manipulate the top card of your deck.
We're talking about a new set preview here.  You can't judge the cards entirely on what's available in Standard right now, because it's going to have 200+ new cards coming along with it.

Also, Noxious Revival.  So that makes only 5 colors that have access to top-of-library manipulation.
Actually, to be perfectly honest, Ponder and Revival/Reclaim are the only ways in Standard to know that you're about to hit a Miracle card (that I know of so far; if they have Creatures with Miracle, then obviously Black will be a contender, as well). Revival/Reclaim alo require you to have already played the card or milled it, making Ponder the much more consistent option. So unless they re-release Sensei's Divining Top in Avacyn Restored, I still see Blue as being able to abuse such a mechanic the best right now, which sucks because Blue doesn't need any more abusable cards, and also because it's already a stupid luck-sack PoS mechanic to begin with.

Best part? Delver could not only abuse this mechanic with very little effort, they could play Revival Maindeck, too!!!

Resident Logic Cannon
every color cannot.



I'm unsure you're fully aware of how phyrexian mana symbols work?

Every deck, of every color, has noxious revival at its disposal. Any deck that wants to play miracle cards will play noxious revival to get extra value out of it (along with revival's other good uses), regardless of its colors. (Oh hey, red decks can both pay for this AND DISCARD IT WITH FAITHLESS LOOTING, put it on top of deck at EOT, burn to face next turn.)

That's like saying only red and black have good answers to first turn Delver when every deck can play Gut Shot.

We still haven't even SEEN any blue/white Miracle cards, or any other Miracle cards beyond this one, which delver probably doesn't even play, and you're throwing in the towel because OBVIOUSLY THIS MECHANIC MAKES DELVER ET AL SO MUCH BETTER?

Wait to see the rest of the set before complaining. 
Sorry, missed that; still pretty tired.

Sure, whatever. I'm sure you're right and the rest of the set will be a complete step away from what WotC has been doing for years now. Sure.
Resident Logic Cannon
@Crim: Powerful equipment and auras are more interactive and available. If you have pumps that are a problem only on particular creatures, its a problem with the creatures. In fact, the only reason to use hexproof instead of Shroud is specifically to enable the stupid pump play.

Hexproof is a fundamentally uninteractive mechanic, because it means only one player is having fun.

I think people are overcriticising Miracle. For a start, it doesn't intrinsically favour blue, even if blue is the colour with Ponder (in fact, Think Twice is arguably more important for Miracle) because it has so many internal penalties (prohibitive timing, overcosting, etc.)

I think if there's a colour with Miracle on creatures, that's the colour to be favoured by it.
Alright, I can agree with that, Indigo, for the most part; Saint Taft, for instance, never fails to annoy the crap out of me. Still don't like the Swords in a Standard with :U: for a 3/2 Flyer or any of the other FAR-too-powerful-for-their-cmc-beatsticks.
Resident Logic Cannon
I don't even know why people care about knowing they're about to hit a Miracle card. It doesn't change the way the mechanic works - you don't gave to guess before you see the card.

@FR2: Soulbond works as written. You can pair Paladin with a non-Soulbond creature. You can pair it with a creature already on the battlefield, or one that comes in after the Paladin.

In fact, if you play Turn 2 Inquisitor, turn 3 paladin and bond, and then an opponent kills Inquisitor, you can rebond paladin with te next creature you play.
I think if there's a colour with Miracle on creatures, that's the colour to be favoured by it.


Oh, and I was talking about Black's ability to put Creatures on top of its deck; Revival but with multiple targets, AND it cantrips.
Resident Logic Cannon
Miracle is just a crappy mechanic. I'm sick of losing games because my opponent got lucky, and not because of skill.

(at)MrEnglish22

I don't even know why people care about knowing they're about to hit a Miracle card. It doesn't change the way the mechanic works - you don't gave to guess before you see the card.


It's about abusing the Mechanic, dude; for 5 is great and all, but if it's inconsistent, it's not really worth it all the time. Faithless Looting+Noxious Revival makes it a bit better (though that's basically a 3-card combo to get it), and then there's Brainstorm effects+Miracle, which means you can consistently get powerful effects for way lower mana then you'd otherwise be paying for them.
Resident Logic Cannon
Why does Miracle make that any more the case than any other topdeck-to-win?
Top-deck to win = Annoying and stupid, but not consistent.

Miracle+Brainstorm Versions 1, 2, and 3 = Overpowered and possibly even Broken.
Resident Logic Cannon
Why does Miracle make that any more the case than any other topdeck-to-win?



Its more comparable to the turn 2 blind Delver flip than topdecking in a close game. I'll use an example that I used talking to somebody else, but you have to know how League of Legends (or DotA to a lesser extent) works for it to make sense. Getting a Critical Hit early in the game can win you a lane far easier than outplaying your opponent, and this random factor to lose can be highly unfun for the majority of people. It used to be a "I have a 4% chance to win my lane and increase our team's chance to win by a large amount." That isn't the good kind of variation. Delver, and by extention this Miracle spell, are the bad kind of variation and luck.

EDIT and I'm not even talking about Legacy, where you can reliably cast these spells on the cheap. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Well, I can see that tighter, more on-the-clock builds will make miracle seem more balanced. For example, deciding to play your topdecked thunderous blast could set you back a turn if you want to hardcast a fatty, or worse still, if you're trying to make yourself some board presence early game.
Subtly punishing players that are on the draw? Keep a solid 7, no miracle cards in hand. Draw card for turn... it's a miracle card and you haven't played any lands. D'oh!
@FR2: Soulbond works as written. You can pair Paladin with a non-Soulbond creature. You can pair it with a creature already on the battlefield, or one that comes in after the Paladin. In fact, if you play Turn 2 Inquisitor, turn 3 paladin and bond, and then an opponent kills Inquisitor, you can rebond paladin with te next creature you play.



Thanks for the clarification Indy. I figured that's how it probably worked, but I hadn't seen any rulings about it yet. I like that you can re-bond if the other creature goes down. It'll be pretty interesting if people can start abusing it. Delver seems like the most reliable option right now, but I'm still not sure it can take the spot from Geist. Double Strike is a strong mechanic though, espeically with Pike and Swords floating around.

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Anyone has seen Temporal Mastery?

Ponder, Mastery, Delver with Mana leak mana up while the opponent is still on a single land.

Guess we have the UW Delver's Baterskull.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Yeah, I guess it is pretty good to skip your Turn 2 to gain an extra turn 2. 

The situation you just outlined isn't even good. Delver might be the best deck in the format, but it doesn't automatically beat every other deck in existence because the new set has a blue card in it. Hell, I'm not even sure Delver WANTS a 6-mana blue card to take an extra turn. Unless they cast it immediately (and effectively skip the turn they're actually playing), they can never cast it again.


You guys are all horribly overrating the Miracle mechanic. It's nowhere near broken - even the best one, the Time Walk, isn't that amazing.


The only decks that are going to get Miracle close to broken are the ones that can cast it for full price for value (more so in the case of creatures).
You guys are all horribly overrating the Miracle mechanic. It's nowhere near broken - even the best one, the Time Walk, isn't that amazing.


The only decks that are going to get Miracle close to broken are the ones that can cast it for full price for value (more so in the case of creatures).



QFT. I see Miracle being a lot better in Control builds or Ramp variants that actually have a chance of playing the card for the full cost. No aggro/tempo deck wants to risk holding a dead card for the rest of the game just for the chance to topdeck it sometime throughout the game. Brimstone Volley is so much better than the Miracle burn in nearly every deck.

Edit: Cloudshift reminds me of Blink to an extent. The EtB effects are worse in this meta than they were in that one though. Griselbrand also seems pretty cool. I'm sure Dredge will love this guy in other formats. I'm not sure how he'll fare in Standard. Maybe Frites will SB him for the Control matchup. Seems like a natural fit in U/B Control, but I'm not sure how much better he is than Grave Titan at actually ending games. Drawing 7 is hard to pass up though. Especially when you're guaranteed to get it back if you can hold back their disruption with the cards you drew. Solar Flare seems like the best fit, but that deck seems to have disappeared.

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Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.

Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

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