Several year transition?

Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.
yes, how dare WotC keep me away from the Runepreists for so long, or pixies. i wanted my release date pixie vampire, but no. i had to wait.

coises (to use a brooklyn accent).

i could easily make a bard or barbarian on 4th ed release by reflavoring a Warlock or Warlord (depending if i wanted to hinder enemies with my song or bolster allies) or Fighter (greatweapon, 2-handed, took the big damage powers). i just wasn't hung up on the name of the class and simply took the ones that had effects that worked close with my conception of what the character did and reflavored the **** out of it.

i would rather WotC bring out a handfull of well-tested classes at the start then force a dozen out at the start and we end up with such (worthless) gems as the 3.5 fighter or monk
Well, I know they're doing the "If it's ever been in a PH(1)" thing for races - are they doing that for classes?  If so, you shouldn't have to wait, unless it's one of those things you've always had to wait for (psionics).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Well, I know they're doing the "If it's ever been in a PH(1)" thing for races - are they doing that for classes?  If so, you shouldn't have to wait, unless it's one of those things you've always had to wait for (psionics).



That's pretty much my point - even psionics should not have to wait.  You should not have to wait years to play the PC you want unless is is really out there on the fringes. 
Well, I know they're doing the "If it's ever been in a PH(1)" thing for races - are they doing that for classes?  If so, you shouldn't have to wait, unless it's one of those things you've always had to wait for (psionics).



That's pretty much my point - even psionics should not have to wait.  You should not have to wait years to play the PC you want unless is is really out there on the fringes. 



You'd have gigantic core books that way though.

(or a very good system, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that) 
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E


You'd have gigantic core books that way though.

(or a very good system, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that) 



Possibly.  There are easy ways around that, if desired.  For example, one could publish multiple books all at once and allow the custmers to decide how quickly to buy them.



You'd have gigantic core books that way though.

(or a very good system, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that) 



Possibly.  There are easy ways around that, if desired.  For example, one could publish multiple books all at once and allow the custmers to decide how quickly to buy them.



Thaaaat... would be a tough sell to the execs.  

"So here's my plan: we'll triple our release-to-market time, and triple our liability once we do release...  But the customers will appreciate the additional selection by releasing three books at once..." 

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.


I'm sorry, this just isn't going to happen.  The first release of any new edition simply isn't going to be able to cover the same amount of ground that took several years and dozens of books to cover in the previous one. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.


I'm sorry, this just isn't going to happen.  The first release of any new edition simply isn't going to be able to cover the same amount of ground that took several years and dozens of books to cover in the previous one. 



I know, I know.  Still, there are ways this could be handled other than waiting years for the monk - or barbarian - or psionicist or whatever.

I, for one, will resist the change until the rules are ready for me to play the PC that I want to play.
Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.


I'm sorry, this just isn't going to happen.  The first release of any new edition simply isn't going to be able to cover the same amount of ground that took several years and dozens of books to cover in the previous one. 



I know, I know.  Still, there are ways this could be handled other than waiting years for the monk - or barbarian - or psionicist or whatever.

I, for one, will resist the change until the rules are ready for me to play the PC that I want to play.


Well, the psion is easy.  Just take any caster class and call it's magic psionics.  Voila!  A psion (mechanically, psionics is D&D has usually been magic by another name).  Then the character can enter a monestary for a month-long retreat, when the book with the psion comes out, and emerge as a newly enlightened man/woman.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


I know, I know.  Still, there are ways this could be handled other than waiting years for the monk - or barbarian - or psionicist or whatever.

I, for one, will resist the change until the rules are ready for me to play the PC that I want to play.


How, though?  I mean, it isn't like the WotC staff drops into the office to work a week before a new book comes out and then they go to Hawaii for a few months before deigning to grace us with a new class.  These guys work full time.  

They're not going to wait to release 5e until they have years worth of support ready, because that would take years, and they'd get canned for low profits while everyone waited.  I don't have any insider information, but the release schedule is almost certain to be something like this.  They'll release 5e when it is a fully functional game that covers the most core of class archetypes.  Then they'll get to work on supplements, which will likely be heavy on revamping old classes for the new system at first, because people want them and the work is all cut out.

Besides, assuming I switch to 5e at all, I'd prefer to see my favorite classes take awhile to release(they won't, because my favorites are Fighter and Paladin, but still).   Old classes that come out later in the development cycle tend to be much better designed because the designers have had that time to figure out what worked and what didn't.  playtesting is good, and should always be done, but it can't stand up to releasing it and seeing how the community takes it.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.



It is pretty simple. 5e means starting from scratch with yet another version of the Fighter and the Wizard, yet another version of the Illithid, yet another version of the Vorpal sword, etc, etc.

Staying with 3.x means that your books are still useful and that Paizo produces books that are compatible and keeps the game going foward. They just released the Gunslinger and Beastiary 3. Not another Wizard.

It seems the choice is simple. Stand still by buying yet another version of the basic classes or move forward with new releases that are compatible with your old books.



True. I seriously don't get why people who stuck with 3rd edition despite being given an awesome alternative would want to switch system. Wink Apart from the people who weren't given a better alternative (those who dislike all editions of D&D so far).
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
True. I seriously don't get why people who stuck with 3rd edition despite being given an awesome alternative would want to switch system. Wink Apart from the people who weren't given a better alternative (those who dislike all editions of D&D so far).



Are there people who were disatisfied with every iteration of DnD and still hope for it to satisfy them? I would think such persons would have moved on.

And we haven't talked of 4e fans. Will they switch or will they be orphans after 5e comes out? If 3.x fans have no reason to jump ship and 4e fans' expectations aren't met, what will happen to 5e?



4E fans? Same thing. If D&D Next sucks, then we'll have no reason to move and we'll be stuck with our beloved and abandoned edition. And D&D Next will fail with half (40%?) of its customer base dissatisfied.

By the way, I'm slightly sarcastic in the above quote. I fully understand the reasons D&D Next could be sold: mainly being a better product than previous editions. However, I think there's a big risk of people sticking with Pathfinder and / or 4th Edition anyway.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
I would like to point out that Wizards already said all classes that were ever in a PHB1, for all the editions of the game, will be in 5e at release.  Of course, now that I said that, I can't find the article in question where they announced that.  So don't quote me on this.  

What I imagine they MIGHT do, is something similar to the two Essentials books for players.  They'll release 2 or 3 softback books, each with a few races and classes apiece, each for about 20 to 30 dollars.  Maybe sometime later, they will release a compliation book, one that's hardback, maybe even leatherbound (fake leather of course), for 60 to 80 bucks.  
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What I imagine they MIGHT do, is something similar to the two Essentials books for players.  They'll release 2 or 3 softback books, each with a few races and classes apiece, each for about 20 to 30 dollars.  Maybe sometime later, they will release a compliation book, one that's hardback, maybe even leatherbound (fake leather of course), for 60 to 80 bucks.  



I sooooooooooooooo hope not! There are people who cannot afford buying 3 player handbook, one or more monster manual and maybe a couple of dungeon master guides just to play bases!
What I imagine they MIGHT do, is something similar to the two Essentials books for players.  They'll release 2 or 3 softback books, each with a few races and classes apiece, each for about 20 to 30 dollars.  Maybe sometime later, they will release a compliation book, one that's hardback, maybe even leatherbound (fake leather of course), for 60 to 80 bucks.  



I sooooooooooooooo hope not! There are people who cannot afford buying 3 player handbook, one or more monster manual and maybe a couple of dungeon master guides just to play bases!



I never understood why people feel they need to buy every book. I only buy a book if I actually intend to use it. If I'm not DMing I don't buy any books I not planning to immediately use as a player like campaign sourcebooks and DMGs. If I'm DMing I don't buy supplements unless there's something specific in them I plan to use. And on top of that if 5e's online tools are similar to 4e's online tools then if the DM or group subscribes to DDi they automatically has access to a great deal of the content you'd want from the books anyway. Not to mention it's not like everybody at the table needs to have duplicate copies of every book, you can always share books.

So basically, my advice, if you're worried about the expense of books don't buy three PHBs or whatever unless you're actually going to use material from all three books. And there's nothing wrong with sharing books and thereby sharing the cost of books.


P.S.  On a tangent I never really bought into the complaint I sometimes see about D&D being an expensive hobby. Most of my friends and I have spent way more on video games than we did on D&D, for instance, despite having many D&D books and multiple DDi subscriptions. (Heck, I've spent more on Rock Band songs alone over the last few years than I did on D&D.)
I would like to point out that Wizards already said all classes that were ever in a PHB1, for all the editions of the game, will be in 5e at release.  Of course, now that I said that, I can't find the article in question where they announced that.  So don't quote me on this.

You are right, they (Monte?) said this a DDX. You could probably find the transcript at EnWorld.

But the thing is, there is a diffference between a wish and the final product. In one of the L&L (or maybe Ro3) it was said that right now they are focusing on the 4 basic classes. So it remains to be seen what will be in the PHB1 of 5e.

Plus we need to take into consideration WotC's track record of promises and deliveries...

And we also have to take into consideration people confusing plans with promises.

Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.

I would like to point out that Wizards already said all classes that were ever in a PHB1, for all the editions of the game, will be in 5e at release.  Of course, now that I said that, I can't find the article in question where they announced that.  So don't quote me on this.

You are right, they (Monte?) said this a DDX. You could probably find the transcript at EnWorld.

But the thing is, there is a diffference between a wish and the final product. In one of the L&L (or maybe Ro3) it was said that right now they are focusing on the 4 basic classes. So it remains to be seen what will be in the PHB1 of 5e.

Plus we need to take into consideration WotC's track record of promises and deliveries...




Yeah, remember that character visualizer they promised us during the run up to 4e?  Or how about the Virtual Tabletop. Well, we did kind of get that last one.  But no where near what was promised.  
That warm fuzzy feeling you get when you a forum thread you're subscribed to has a new comment.
And we also have to take into consideration people confusing plans with promises.


The company they had building their virtual tools for 4e launch went out of business.  Plans change when those sort of things happen.  Reasonable consumers recognize that, accept the disappointment, and move on.  Those who think that everything stated is a guaranteed, bonafide pony delivered to your doorstep, on the other hand?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ah, I hadn't heard that.  That would explain things.  I am still sad that didn't happen.  The Virtual Tabletop I could have done without, but the visualizer would have been awesome.  Still, there's no way they can get enough in there to create everything your imagination comes up with.  I guess the best way to show what your character looks like is still to draw it.  Or get someone else to.
That warm fuzzy feeling you get when you a forum thread you're subscribed to has a new comment.
And we also have to take into consideration people confusing plans with promises.


The company they had building their virtual tools for 4e launch went out of business.  Plans change when those sort of things happen.  Reasonable consumers recognize that, accept the disappointment, and move on.  Those who think that everything stated is a guaranteed, bonafide pony delivered to your doorstep, on the other hand?

Exactly.

But beyond that, when I hear of people talking about how Wizards' has promised to provide all classes from all PHBs in the core release of 5E, I can't help but think that if they don't get exactly that, they are going to be storming the castle with pitchforks and torches.  Where, instead, that discussion that they shared were merely their plans, hopes, intentions and not at all a promise.

Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.

I would like to point out that Wizards already said all classes that were ever in a PHB1, for all the editions of the game, will be in 5e at release.  Of course, now that I said that, I can't find the article in question where they announced that.  So don't quote me on this.



From www.enworld.org/forum/news/317373-semina...

Greg: Where do you start with your design when approaching the next edition. Are you looking at all of the classes, or a specific edition version?

Monte: To start with we kind of shot at the moon, and said everything that's been in a Player's Handbook 1, we want to potentially have in our new player's book. That includes things like the warlock and the warlord from 4th edition, but also includes the classes from other editions like the ranger, the wizard, the cleric. Going along those lines we separated things along the lines of what's common or uncommon. So for example fighters, clerics, wizards and clerics might be commmon while warlocks, bards, and paladins fall into uncommon and something like the assassin might be rare. This helps DMs determine what options they want to run in their games as well.



So, it comes down to what 'we want to potentially have' means, assuming the transcript is accurate. I didn't read that as a promise, and I don't have any solid expectations of what we're going to see or not see based on that, and that's fine. I'd rather they put well-thought-out classes into the first release rather than run through a much larger list in checkbox-fashion, but equally I can imagine the frustration of being stuck unable to play 5e with your favourite characters on launch day.
True. I seriously don't get why people who stuck with 3rd edition despite being given an awesome alternative would want to switch system. Wink Apart from the people who weren't given a better alternative (those who dislike all editions of D&D so far).



Are there people who were disatisfied with every iteration of DnD and still hope for it to satisfy them? I would think such persons would have moved on.

And we haven't talked of 4e fans. Will they switch or will they be orphans after 5e comes out? If 3.x fans have no reason to jump ship and 4e fans' expectations aren't met, what will happen to 5e?



4E fans? Same thing. If D&D Next sucks, then we'll have no reason to move and we'll be stuck with our beloved and abandoned edition. And D&D Next will fail with half (40%?) of its customer base dissatisfied.

By the way, I'm slightly sarcastic in the above quote. I fully understand the reasons D&D Next could be sold: mainly being a better product than previous editions. However, I think there's a big risk of people sticking with Pathfinder and / or 4th Edition anyway.



Not only that, but with the internet, it would be way easy for the community that prefers sticking with 4th edition material to create good, balanced "homebrewed" content that need not rely on the 4th edition license to be generally accepted. I can see this happening if 5th edition does not largely embrace the 4th ed crowd.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I would like to point out that Wizards already said all classes that were ever in a PHB1, for all the editions of the game, will be in 5e at release.  Of course, now that I said that, I can't find the article in question where they announced that.  So don't quote me on this.

You are right, they (Monte?) said this a DDX. You could probably find the transcript at EnWorld.

But the thing is, there is a diffference between a wish and the final product. In one of the L&L (or maybe Ro3) it was said that right now they are focusing on the 4 basic classes. So it remains to be seen what will be in the PHB1 of 5e.

Plus we need to take into consideration WotC's track record of promises and deliveries...

And we also have to take into consideration people confusing plans with promises.



You mean like the implied promise in the contract you sign with WotC when you agree to pay for DDI every month means that it will produce lots of worthy Dragon and Dungeon content and up date the CB every month like they said they would or is that just being too harsh to expect from a compagny I give my hard earn money too?

Keep in mind I am not a fanboy and remain more objective than a few people.

No, I mean that when people confuse plans, hopes, and intentions with promises.  Just like I typed in plain, easy to read English.  Please try to keep up and quit with the straw man.  I wasn't even disagreeing with your statement, merely appending to it.  See how I said, "And...?"  That means "in addition to..."

That's twice in a row where you are making up attacks and disagreements where there were none.

Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.

Here is what I do not want to happen again.  I do not want to not be able to create a character meeting a concept I have for a character easily done in a previous edition.

For example, if I want an elevn monk, or a drow bard, I want to be able to make it on day on of the next edition.  I don't want to have to wait two of three years again to be able to do this.


    Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good.  You may not get the very best the first year or two, but you will be getting some very good stuff.  Much better to be satisfied with it rather than hold out for the very best, which is not going to happen soon, and may well not happen at all.
    I've removed content from this thread because baiting/trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Even if they don't get it perfect, they can come out with a "revised" version of the rules (backwards compatible, fixes some trouble spots) 5 years into the release that freshens the iteration up a bit.

I would like WotC to be able to get to a point they did with the magic core set: update and freshen as needed, but not drastically overhaul or make incompatible items from the prior revision.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
I would like WotC to be able to get to a point they did with the magic core set: update and freshen as needed, but not drastically overhaul or make incompatible items from the prior revision.

The Magic Model doesn't seem too bad an idea.
A new setting every year, with all the components essentially interchangable.