Help with trying to convert group to 4E

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So i have a group of friends i love to game with and they started playing again after the football season ended.  Why that was a conflict to begin with I dont understand.

Anyhoo 3.5 really bores me.  Especially since the DM just cant balance it.  We were level 6 and invaded a lair of 40 some hobgoblins and the fireballs were killing 10+ enemies at a time.  The buffed to the teeth fighter would great cleave everything within 10 feet every turn.  Awesome, but yawn.

I brought it up briefly with the DM and all he said was "Blasphemy".  One of the others has played 4E once.

They seem really married and used to 3.5 and IMO dont realize they are missing legitimately interesting character building options (with TRADEOFFS!)

So how do i bring it up?  They are currently mid-campaign and the DM is really into world-building.

How do I present character building without overwhelming them, assuming they even go as far as a trial session?
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I think if the whole group have negative feelings towards 4e you're going to have hard time. Unfortunately 4e dislike is spread more by word of mouth than by experience.

If you make them play 4e and they aren't open to it, they're going to be looking for shortcomings and faults and will be over-critical and it's all going to go up in flames before it gets far.

You can ask them to be open minded, and perhaps set up a game. Demonstrate that 4e needn't be all combat by adding plenty of role play and story, and also role play combat by describing what the monsters are doing and why. Don't bash 3.5 since that will just make them insiteful.

If the game is good and they have fun, their feelings might change.
Probably best to wait for 5e at this point. Trying to learn at whole new system for less than 1 year's worth of play wouldn't seem worth (especially if they are resistant). I don't see them changing. In the mean time, some things that might fix 3.5:
- Ask the DM to up the challenge rating (yes: fireballs are expected wipe out a room full of hobgoblins)
- Stick to just the core books for character builds (they can usually accomodate almost any character concept... while all those add-on books can be optimizer bait).
- If an ability is far too unbalanced (not what you described), have a gentleman's agreement to quit using it

Who says there's only a year's worth of play left in 4e?  Aren't there still plenty of 1/2e players and a whole slew of 3.5 players?  Not everyone switches to the new edition once it comes out, especially since there are tons of worlds and classes and support that already exists.  It's expected that there will be little to no support for 4e once D&DNext comes out, but until then, there's plenty of material already available.
And if your DM and players can reasonably homebrew, new classes and powers could easily be created.

Good luck seeing if your group will try 4e.  You can always look for a new group, or try a different RPG instead.
I think if the whole group have negative feelings towards 4e you're going to have hard time. Unfortunately 4e dislike is spread more by word of mouth than by experience.

If you make them play 4e and they aren't open to it, they're going to be looking for shortcomings and faults and will be over-critical and it's all going to go up in flames before it gets far.

You can ask them to be open minded, and perhaps set up a game. Demonstrate that 4e needn't be all combat by adding plenty of role play and story, and also role play combat by describing what the monsters are doing and why. Don't bash 3.5 since that will just make them insiteful.

If the game is good and they have fun, their feelings might change.



Pretty much this.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

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Well there is a nice opportunity atm since the DM is taking a break and they are starting another campaign, in which he will play

I talked to the DM a bit more and he went on about how they took the game he loved and turned it into WOW, etc.  He said he read the PHB.  I told him reading the rules of monopoly doesnt make it sound fun.

So assuming they get interested, should I use pregens and a quick encounter?  I dont want to overwhelm them...there is so much to building a character atm.
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If they're cool with pregens, that could work.  On the other hand, they might prefer making their own characters.  I, for one, would much prefer having my own character.  In the end it's not so incredibly complicated.  You have to pick a race/class combo, then a feat or two, three powers, a class option.  Really not that much.  There certainly isn't any need for them to optimize anything, they can just scan the their class's section and pick what looks fun.
Well there is a nice opportunity atm since the DM is taking a break and they are starting another campaign, in which he will play

I talked to the DM a bit more and he went on about how they took the game he loved and turned it into WOW, etc.  He said he read the PHB.  I told him reading the rules of monopoly doesnt make it sound fun.

So assuming they get interested, should I use pregens and a quick encounter?  I dont want to overwhelm them...there is so much to building a character atm.


Sounds like he has quite a few proconceptions. If you set up an adventure, I would spend at least 30 minutes with an interesting RP scenario (I'd avoid skill challenges per se, they can feel quite forced) and integrate the combat encounter(s) into the story. As I mentioned before, try to bring the NPCs to life.

So rather than "the goblin attacks you", say "the goblin, enraged by you interfering into their plan, draws it's sword with a metallic rasp and snarls, seeking it's revenge"

OK that's a bit exaggerated, but describing and RPing the scene really helps the lengthy 4e combat.

I had a cgroup of friends that didn;t like 4th ed, that ofcourse had never played it, I invited them over for a 1 shot adventure. I premade the characters for them to choose from and gave them a rundown on the rules, then we started. It was a fun game with an interesting twist. I got a few compliments on it. Anyway, 1 of the 4 players that didn;t like 4th ed before the game, didn't like 4th ed after the game, he ahd fun, but still prefered 3.5.  The other 3 all converted over to 4th ed and haven't looked back.

The funny thing about the guy that didn't like 4th ed, well he hated 3rd ed until shortly before 4th ed came out, I expect him to convert over to 4th soon, then ahte 5th.
Don't sell it to them as 4e. Tell them it's a completely different game system and that they should look at as such. Get them to look at as if they were playing Warhammer or a White Wolf game or whatever.

Suggest that you're taking a break from 3.5 not replacing it. You're just looking for a change of pace.


A lot of the hate comes from the idea that their loved game is being lost and will never be played again. Ease their minds and maybe they'll be more willing to accept it for what it is rather than what they think it is.
Once opinions are formed they're hard to change.  It might be better to aproach your issue from a different direction.  You're bored with 3.5, so tell them "we've been playing D&D for a long time and it's getting boring, let's do something else."   If they agree to try something else, maybe, since the already like D&D, rather than trying Savage Worlds or Amber Diceless Roleplaying or FATAL, they'll deign to give 4e a fair shot.

 

 

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Well there is a nice opportunity atm since the DM is taking a break and they are starting another campaign, in which he will play

I talked to the DM a bit more and he went on about how they took the game he loved and turned it into WOW, etc.  He said he read the PHB.  I told him reading the rules of monopoly doesnt make it sound fun.

So assuming they get interested, should I use pregens and a quick encounter?  I dont want to overwhelm them...there is so much to building a character atm.


Well, what I'd try in your shoes is waiting until you're all together and just saying something straightforward, like, "Hey, guys, I really like 4e, and I'd really like it if you guys would give it a shot.  I'll tell you what, when this campaign is over, just let me run a one-shot, like a trial run."

Make pregens, and offer them, but let them make a character if they want.  When you're running it, play to the system's strengths and keep as much of the mechanics behind the screen as you can.  Avoid insulting 3.5 at all, it'll only make them defensive.  Stress that this isn't a permanent switch to 4e, that they can go back to 3.5 at any time.   
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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