I do think that STR and CON belong to the same TOUGHNESS ability

because when you have strong STR you will have strong CON... that is to say you're a good Fighter;

except if you only need a good CON to have good HPs;

the Fighter level *should* give you your HPs and THAC0/BAB

...

you end up with 5 basic abilities TOUGH/DEX/INT/WIS/CHA

...

that is to say 5 domains

War for TOUGHNESS
Trade for DEX
Magic for INT
Faith for WIS
Politics for CHA

super! a bug!

Trade/Politics CHA

so, to what a domain belongs DEX ?
Oooh :O

of course the CORNE subsystem:

Corps/Body===>STR+CON
Outils/Ingenuity===>DEX
Relationnel/Empathy===>CHA
Nature/Harmony===>WIS
Esprit/Psyche===>INT

there was also the ICONE subsystem:

Influence ===>CHA
Corps ===>STR+CON
Outils===>DEX
Nature ===>WIS
Esprit===>INT

the main difference with CORNE was

CORNE was for Good people
ICONE was for Evil people

now you can use ICORNE...
back to the top:

you have HPs;
each slice of 10HPs you gain +1 THAC0/BAB 

each level gives you 12 points, to get spent in HPs and other abilities like Magic Arts
each slice of 10 Magic Arts points you gain +1 Magic User Level

... 
Strength and constitution being seperate makes sense as is to me. In real life you can be strong but have a low pain tolerance or get sick easilly and exerted strength (I'e taking a swing picking something up) isn't the same as enduring strength (how long it takes your body to wear down under constant fatigue and work). I feel like in 4e that these two traits acturately represent that. You can build a barbarian with only an eye for damagewho runs around hitting someone, but can't take too many hits himself and it works mecahnically because he's a striker and it works flavorwise.
Why can't I be a hardy wizard.  I'm not physically imposing, but I'm tenacious.  I imagine something like Benjamin Linus from LOST.  That was a high-Int, high-Con, low-Str character. 
Strength Training (Weight lifting, etc...) is WHOLLY different from Endurance Training (Cross country runners, etc...) so I would have to disagree with them being the same stat.

Well, in fact Str and Con are nearly the opposite things.

Both are relate to differant type of muscle, str relate to white muscle and con relate to red muscle.

The more red muscle you have, the less white muscle you will have and vise versa.

ฺBodybuilder muscle are nearly all white muscle.
These people endurance is less than normal people (fatigued by just a few walk for example).

On the other hand, marathon runner's muscle are nearly all red muscle,too.
And you can see these people build is very slim, both arms and legs are smaller than normal people.
Why can't I be a hardy wizard.  I'm not physically imposing, but I'm tenacious.  I imagine something like Benjamin Linus from LOST.  That was a high-Int, high-Con, low-Str character. 


Remember that episode where Ben didn't get beaten or shot?




Neither do I. 

truth/humor
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

 

iserith: The game doesn't profess to be "just like our world." What it is just like is the world of Dungeons & Dragons. Any semblance to reality is purely coincidental.

 

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?

 

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon. A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.

Well, in fact Str and Con are nearly the opposite things.

Both are relate to differant type of muscle, str relate to white muscle and con relate to red muscle.

The more red muscle you have, the less white muscle you will have and vise versa.

ฺBodybuilder muscle are nearly all white muscle.
These people endurance is less than normal people (fatigued by just a few walk for example).

On the other hand, marathon runner's muscle are nearly all red muscle,too.
And you can see these people build is very slim, both arms and legs are smaller than normal people.



The bodybuilder will have a high Might, whereas the runner will have a low Might with a bonus to endurance or athletics.

You can be healthy without being strong.  You can be strong without being healthy.  Constitution works just fine as is.  Convoluting other skills to hide constitution really doesn't do anything but relocate a core stat (to multiple locations, no less).

Celebrate our differences.

We can argue this till were black and blue, but the 6 standard abilities is probably the most iconic trait of D&D and has been a major influence on every other RPG as a whole.

I always find it comical when RPGs attempt to 'rename' or remove one or add a one Ability (Attribute) just to be 'different' then D&D. What they sometimes realize is that they were better off just sticking with the core 6 and finding other ways to be different.

Unless there is a specific mechanical need in your RPG to shortening (lenghtening) the list of Abilities, there is no point changing it. Because what may 'feel' or 'sound' better to you, probably doesn't 'feel' or 'sound' better to someone else.

For example, if you were creating a modern RPG where finesse and marksmanship are the most advantageous forms of combat, then you would probably need to split Dexterity into 2 (one for 'accuracy and hand eye coordination' and the other for 'speed and reflexes') and then merge Strength and Constitution together. You would make this change to 'even out' the use of the Ability Scores. If I were running a straight up combat orientated RPG, I would consider dumping Charisma and merging it into Wisdom to make something like 'Spirit'.

So that's what I mean by mechanical reasons. Just changing it because it looks better on paper makes no sense.

The 6 abilities is one of those mechanics that have never failed in D&D's history and represents a character's core capacity quite well... so I really don't see the need in changing it.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it
I don't see the improvement.  It's just a simplification.
I don't see the improvement.  It's just a simplification.



I have recommended there being four stats: Might, Dexterity, Charisma and Cunning.

I agree that Strength and Constitution are so closely related that they fit well into on statistic (Might in my terminology).

If you wish to have an adventurer with a strong immune system, giving him a bonus to Fortitude against disease and poison is a better way to do it. If you wish to have an adventurer who has exeptional endurance, giving him a bonus to Athletics is a better way to do it.



Well, I for myself imagined a four-stat system: WIME with Willpower, Instinct, Morale and Empathy

but I think slygamer has the final word..
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