Please help!! Venser Exile Deck

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Let me know what you think of it.  I threw it together right before the duel decks came out but then added a couple cards from it.  My issue is finding the right win condition.  If I can get venser out by turn 5 and just start blinking my [C]Stonehorn Dignitary[/C] then play one from my hand as I make the emblem I can win a few turns after that but it doesn't always happen.  Just let me know!  Thanks!

Land
11x [C]Plains[/C]
9x [C]Island[/C]
1x [C]Celestial Colonnade[/C]
2x [C]Seachrome Coast[/C]
2x [C]Azorius Chancery[/C]

Planeswalkers
3x [C]Venser, the Sojourner[/C]

Creatures
1x [C] Admonition Angel[/c]
2x [C]Wurmcoil Engine[/C]
2x [C]Frost Titan[/C]
2x [C]Galepowder Mage[/C]
4x [C]Fiend Hunter[/C]
4x [C]Stonehorn Dignitary[/C]
2x [C]Man-o-War[/C]
3x [C]Pierce Strider[/C]

Instants
3x [C]Saving Grasp[/C]
2x [C]Momentary Blinkl[/C]

Enchantments
4x [C]Oblivion Ring[/C]
4x [C]Journey to Nowhere[/C]

You are Red/Blue!

Most of your creatures should have enter or leave abilities. Not sure what benefit you expect from some of yours like the mindshrieker or wurmcoil.

Also any venser deck that does not run the sundial of the infinite is silly. Most of the time when I see such a deck it is because the person making it does not understand how the stack works.

No reason to run two curse of exhaustion. Run one and a tutor instead such as enlightened tutor.

Your deck is costed to high. You will waste the first 2 turns. The only low mana effect you have is saving grasp and it does nothing for you. If you are going to key that high you might as well run 12 or so come into play tapped lands. Not really advisable though since pumper infect goldfishes on turn 2 if you have no blockers or removal.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
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You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
Also any venser deck that does not run the sundial of the infinite is silly. Most of the time when I see such a deck it is because the person making it does not understand how the stack works.


I don't see how the Sundial and Venser would work together.  The two make use of different types of abilities, and they don't work with each other unless you're trying to permanently exile your own stuff.
As I said, people who do not understand how the stack works do not understand it.

Take a simple example such as oblivion ring. If you bounce your oblivion ring with venser an ability gets added to the stack returning the permanent exiled with oblivion ring back to the battlefield.

This is not automatic though, it is just a triggered ability and uses the stack like any other card ability. You could stifle it for instance and then it would be gone forever. Sundial does exactly the same thing. When sundial resolves it exiles the stack.

The same thing can be done with the dial with the galepowder mage. Wait for the renter trigger to be added to the stack and then end the turn. the same thing can be done with the fiend hunters.

Cut the heels and grasps for sundial of the infinite , momentary blink, and curfew.

Cut the shriekers and wurmcoils for a low mana creature with a good enter the battlefield ability such as  sage of epityr or even spellstutter sprite if you want to use come into play tapped land.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
I understand the stack just fine.  You get the same effect much more reliably just using bounce spells without the Sundial.  And Sundial doesn't work at all when the opponent kills your stuff on his own turn.
Also, ending your turn with Sundial skips past your End of Turn step, leaving whatever Venser exiled out of play until the end of the opponent's turn.  That is almost never a good thing.
A boomerang is certainly more reliable then waiting on venser BUT IT COSTS A CARD. Using the venser and sundial on the other hand costs nothing(actually gets you closer to an emblem with venser).

Your oblivion ring coming back at the end of your opponents turn is also NEVER A BAD THING. It is actually the perfect time for it to come back rather then the non optimal time you seem to think it is. When oblivion ring comes back into play you just exile whatever they did on their turn and prepare to bounce the ring again in the post combat main phase of your turn with venser.

The sundial does indeed have a minor protective nature in your turn but that is by no means its strength. The reason to use it is so that you can exile come back into play triggers after you bounce something. Or so you can keep the angels with something like the geist of saint traft. Oblivion ring is only the begining of what you can abuse, it is by no means the end. For instance in my venser deck I use the parralaxes to get rid of far more then just one permanent at a time.

This for instance is my venser deck,

2 Venser, the Sojourner

4 dream stalker
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Sage of Epityr
1 flayer husk
1 wall of omens
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 mortarpod
1 stoneforge mystic
1 kitchen finks
1 glen elendra archmage
1 Reveillark
1 mulldrifter
1 batterskull
1 sun titan

4 enlightened tutor
2 sundial of the infinite
2 oblivion ring
1 everflowing chalice
1 contagion clasp
1 reality acid
1 parallax wave
1 parallax tide
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 tundra
4 glacial fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
3 plains
3 island
2 flooded strand
2 azorius chancery
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 academy ruins

sideboard
4 mana leak
4 squadron hawk
2 scroll rack
2 myr retriever
2 sundial of the infinite
1 land tax

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
I see what you are saying.  The reason I have the Wurmcoil Engines and the Mindshriekers are in there is because without them and a few other cards I have no win condition.  Plus mindshrieker is nice late in the game when I have lots of mana sitting around and can hit someone hard with a flyer.  I can exile stonehorn off the field and back as many times as I want but without anything to take advantage of it it's pointless.

As I playtested the deck I found I could get it going moderately quickly but it would drag on for turns and turns before I even came close to doing any respectable damage.

I understand the stack, if I didn't I would not have made the deck at all nor would I have put the Saving Grasps in to bounce the Fiend Hunter for a perm exile or the vensers to bounce the Oblivion Rings.

I never thought of using living weapons, which would be doable.  I'd absolutely use the Geist of Saint Traft but it's a 25 dollarish card and I have none.

I'll take out the Curse of Exaustions.  They are nice but don't really follow the synergy of the deck and I feel like I'm wasting 4 mana when I play them.

Maybe I could use allys... hmm... They would lose their counters (if they have them) but all the others would benefit and either mill my opponent, help me gain life, or gain 1/1 counters.  Also I thought about putting clones in the deck too.

You are Red/Blue!

I'm not sure you quite understand what Skeindubh is saying, simply bouncing your own fiend hunter will not result in a permanent exile, as it will still have left the battlefield, returning the creature. What the dial does is end the stack, negating any effects yet to trigger, so for example: You play fiend hunter (exiling a creature), bounce it with venser and then trigger the dial, resulting in the stack instantly ending and thus the exiled creature not returning.  
You could use sundial, but I prefer to use things like vedalken mastermind and crystal shard when dealing with cards like fiend hunter. I also like using cards like stonecloaker, dreamstalker, and whitemane lion to bounce for the same effect. On top of that, there is dance of many, which can give you clones of your mastermind, or anything else for that matter, repeatedly. Reality acid is another way to get around permanents. For extra mana, I am using palladium myr, only because I can easily save it if someone tries to destroy it, otherwise I would use thran dynamo or something.

I never got around to trying out stonehorn dignitary, but I think that is a soft combat lock if you use dance of many on it every turn, then just attack with them like crazy.

If you use blinking effects with your opponents' stuff, then sundial is the way to go. If you abuse abilities going onto and leaving the stack, then things that bounce are better.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: (If you play oblivion ring and it resolves, it enters the battlefield, putting its first ability on the stack. In response to that ability going on the stack, you can use vedalken mastermind to bounce the oblivion ring back to your hand. Since the first ability never resolved, the second ability goes on the stack, but fizzles. Then, the first ability resolves, exiling whatever you targeted, forever, because the O-ring is no longer on the battlefield to declare what was exiled.)
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains.
Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is. One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scours at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour, you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral. Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion, hedron crab, and curse of the bloody tome, so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements. ​Traumatize Rant​. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes. You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes. If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt. The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab, over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome, are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy. There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus. Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment, it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind, to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it. There are always new strategies coming out with each set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you! Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
So if  [c]Momentary Blink[/c] was used on a Fiend Hunter while the opponent's creature was returning to play you could use sundial of the infinite to exile the creature but it would not allow Field Hunter to exile a new target?

If I'm understanding that right then Flickerwisp would be a much better choice for permanent exiling. 
If it ain't Baroque, don't fix it.
So if  momentary blink was used on a Fiend Hunter while the opponent's creature was returning to play you could use sundial of the infinite to exile the creature but it would not allow Field Hunter to exile a new target?

If I'm understanding that right then Flickerwisp would be a much better choice for permanent exiling. 



Permanents changing zones are always new permanents. As momentary blink resolves on your fiend hunter 2 triggered abilities get added to the stack. The come into play ability of the fiend hunter and the leave play ability of the fiend hunter. They happen at exactly the same time (as part of the resolution of the momentary blink), when 2 things happen at exactly the same time the owner of the triggers orders them on the stack how he wants to and then they resolve in last in first out order. Each item resolving on the stack allows priority for both parties before each does so.

Since you control both abilities of the fiend hunter you get to order them. I suggest you order them as,
1)When Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
2)When Fiend Hunter enters the battlefield, you may exile another target creature.

Then you let the top item resolve and exile a new creature. The stack is now
1)When Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
and you have priority.

This is when you activate the sundial. Then the stack looks like,
1)When Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
2)End the turn

You let the end the turn item on the stack resolve and as part of that resolution it  exiles the stack. Which removes item one forever.

This is only one example of the stack being used to get around certain come back into play abilities. The other common example is say oblivion ring and capsize.

Summon oblivion ring and as it enter the battlefield it has a triggered ability that gets added to the stack.
1)When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent.

While that item is on the stack but before it resolves cast capsize on your ring. Stack is then,
1) When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent.
2) Return target permanent to its owner's hand. (targetting the oblivion ring)

Now what happens is that as the cpasize resolves another triggered ability of the o-ring goes on the stack,
1) When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent.
2) When Oblivion Ring leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.

Now you see that this is backwards since the leaves play trigger will resolve before the exile trigger will. Nothing has left play yet when the leaves play trigger resolves which means nothing comes back, and then as the first resolves something goes to exile forever.

Flickerwisp is not an instant most of the time. It can certainly be made an instant with certain other cards but using it to bounce is a bit trickier. leyline of anticipation or winding canyons would do it. It can certainly be used as the instigator of an original bounce though just as venser is.

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

I'm not sure you quite understand what Skeindubh is saying, simply bouncing your own fiend hunter will not result in a permanent exile, as it will still have left the battlefield, returning the creature. What the dial does is end the stack, negating any effects yet to trigger, so for example: You play fiend hunter (exiling a creature), bounce it with venser and then trigger the dial, resulting in the stack instantly ending and thus the exiled creature not returning.  

Sigh. Yes it will.  If I cast a Fiend Hunter and cast a Saving Grasp and return it to my hand before its first ability resolves, it's second ability would resolve before the first, resulting in a permanent exile of an opponent’s creature and I get to recast my Fiend Hunter later on.  I understand how the sundial works.

Fiend Hunter Enters The Battlefield

Stack:
ETB Ability

In response I cast Saving Grasp.

Stack:
Saving Grasp
ETB Ability

Fiend Hunter Leaves The Battlefield.

Stack:
LTB Ability
ETB Ability

The LTB resolves first resulting in no creatures returning to the battlefield and the ETB then resolves leaving a creature in permanent exile.

Click Display Rulings.
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

ADD:  I see what everyone is saying about the sundial.  I'll probably use the one I have, but the issue is that when I get Venser out, preferably on the 5th-6th turn, I'm usually using his +2 ability on my own creatures, not the other way around.  I'm focusing on my creatures ETB abilities most of the time.  Of course there will be times where I will want to permanently exile my opponent’s creature which is why I’ll throw that good old sundial in there.

You are Red/Blue!

I'm not sure you quite understand what Skeindubh is saying, simply bouncing your own fiend hunter will not result in a permanent exile, as it will still have left the battlefield, returning the creature. What the dial does is end the stack, negating any effects yet to trigger, so for example: You play fiend hunter (exiling a creature), bounce it with venser and then trigger the dial, resulting in the stack instantly ending and thus the exiled creature not returning.  

Sigh. Yes it will.  If I cast a Fiend Hunter and cast a Saving Grasp and return it to my hand before its first ability resolves, it's second ability would resolve before the first, resulting in a permanent exile of an opponent’s creature and I get to recast my Fiend Hunter later on.  I understand how the sundial works.

Fiend Hunter Enters The Battlefield

Stack:
ETB Ability

In response I cast Saving Grasp.

Stack:
Saving Grasp
ETB Ability

Fiend Hunter Leaves The Battlefield.

Stack:
LTB Ability
ETB Ability

The LTB resolves first resulting in no creatures returning to the battlefield and the ETB then resolves leaving a creature in permanent exile.

Click Display Rulings.
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

ADD:  I see what everyone is saying about the sundial.  I'll probably use the one I have, but the issue is that when I get Venser out, preferably on the 5th-6th turn, I'm usually using his +2 ability on my own creatures, not the other way around.  I'm focusing on my creatures ETB abilities most of the time.  Of course there will be times where I will want to permanently exile my opponent’s creature which is why I’ll throw that good old sundial in there.

(To answer your original question) So your Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine aren't enough to finish off your opponent? What about spirit mantle orAngelic Destiny as a win card?

Nevermaker plus Angelic Destiny sounds pretty good to me, that's a 6/7 first strike flyer that just got done putting your opponent's permanents on top of his library.

(maybe you shouldn't take advice from me, your exile deck is much farther along than mine.)

 
If it ain't Baroque, don't fix it.

I'm not sure you quite understand what Skeindubh is saying, simply bouncing your own fiend hunter will not result in a permanent exile, as it will still have left the battlefield, returning the creature. What the dial does is end the stack, negating any effects yet to trigger, so for example: You play fiend hunter (exiling a creature), bounce it with venser and then trigger the dial, resulting in the stack instantly ending and thus the exiled creature not returning.  

Sigh. Yes it will.  If I cast a Fiend Hunter and cast a Saving Grasp and return it to my hand before its first ability resolves, it's second ability would resolve before the first, resulting in a permanent exile of an opponent’s creature and I get to recast my Fiend Hunter later on.  I understand how the sundial works.

Fiend Hunter Enters The Battlefield

Stack:
ETB Ability

In response I cast Saving Grasp.

Stack:
Saving Grasp
ETB Ability

Fiend Hunter Leaves The Battlefield.

Stack:
LTB Ability
ETB Ability

The LTB resolves first resulting in no creatures returning to the battlefield and the ETB then resolves leaving a creature in permanent exile.

Click Display Rulings.
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

ADD:  I see what everyone is saying about the sundial.  I'll probably use the one I have, but the issue is that when I get Venser out, preferably on the 5th-6th turn, I'm usually using his +2 ability on my own creatures, not the other way around.  I'm focusing on my creatures ETB abilities most of the time.  Of course there will be times where I will want to permanently exile my opponent’s creature which is why I’ll throw that good old sundial in there.

(To answer your original question) So your Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine aren't enough to finish off your opponent? What about spirit mantle orAngelic Destiny as a win card?

Nevermaker plus Angelic Destiny sounds pretty good to me, that's a 6/7 first strike flyer that just got done putting your opponent's permanents on top of his library.

(maybe you shouldn't take advice from me, your exile deck is much farther along than mine.)

 

I would DEFINITELY use Angelic Destiny but I don't have any and its a 16 dollard card ha ha.  But Spirit Mantle is something I could definitely use.  The problem is the bulk of my creatures are ones that I'd like to bounce so I'd only be able to play it on a choice few.  As of now it looks like the best win condition is to delay opponents from killing me until I have a workable combo(venser+stonehorn, venser+pierce strider) to repeat, and then just keep hitting them with pingers.  Thanks for the input! =)

You are Red/Blue!

I'm currently also looking for creatures that deal direct damage to target creatures or players as they enter the battlefield; preferably an artifact creature. I'd like not to add any colors to the deck either.  I am using three Pierce Striders but I'm just wondering if there were any others I might not be remembering.

You are Red/Blue!

Most of the best enter the battlefield damage creatures are red. My favorite is murderous redcap. Kinda hard to fit them into a blue/white venser deck. contagion clasp works ok as a bounce target contagion engine is even better since it does not target. mortarpod lets you do one damage when you sac the germ, then you can bounce to reset it.

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
Most of the best enter the battlefield damage creatures are red. My favorite is murderous redcap. Kinda hard to fit them into a blue/white venser deck. contagion clasp works ok as a bounce target contagion engine is even better since it does not target. mortarpod lets you do one damage when you sac the germ, then you can bounce to reset it.


Contagion Clasp would be nice with permanent bouncing.  The problem is most of my bouncing spells only bounce creatures; with the exception of Momentary Blink and Venser, the Sojourner of course.  I'm going to try to work more removal cards that target permanents instead of just creatures though.  I hope to add a fourth Venser, 3 Momentary Blinks and maybe some Dream Stalkers to replace my Man-O-Wars; in which case Contagion Clasp and Mortarpod would rule.

You are Red/Blue!

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