Stava Training - Grapple is a Grab?

Stava Training allows you to make a grab attack against someone you charge and make an unarmed attack against.

Does this mean you can do a grapple attack if you have an applicable feat?

In the SECR, under grapple, it states that "a grapple attack is an improved version of the grab attack".

Does this mean that anything that refers to a grab attack would also apply to a grapple attack?
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
yes, as long you have Pin or Trip you may make a grapple check after a successful grab attack.
"Nobody expects imperial Inquisition" "What doesn't destroys me, makes me stranger"
Stava Training allows you to make a grab attack against someone you charge and make an unarmed attack against.

Does this mean you can do a grapple attack if you have an applicable feat?

In the SECR, under grapple, it states that "a grapple attack is an improved version of the grab attack".

Does this mean that anything that refers to a grab attack would also apply to a grapple attack?


Yes indeedy, McReedy. 

I submit for your viewing pleasure the author's comments on the feat (third post down on the page in case it doesn't direct you there):
www.d20radio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=...
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
It is mentioned in that thread, that Stava Training causes the charge attack to deal no damage, but I see no reference to that in the actual feat.  The writer says that it was the intention, but as the feat is written, do you still deal damage with the charging unarmed strike?
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
It is mentioned in that thread, that Stava Training causes the charge attack to deal no damage, but I see no reference to that in the actual feat.  The writer says that it was the intention, but as the feat is written, do you still deal damage with the charging unarmed strike?

As the feat is written, you can charge and make an unarmed attack. If said attack hits you would deal damage as normal. Then you get to make an immediate free grab/grapple attack.

Normally a grab or grapple attack deal no damage, so only the initial attack would deal damage. If you hit with that attack you get to try to grab a hold in the opponent as well. This is clearly stated in the feat, even IF the designer intended something else. There is nothing in the RAW that support the interpretation that the designer says he intended.

According to the designers nerfing of the feat, you would have to make 2 attack rolls and one opposed roll to grapple the opponent after a charge! Also, this requires a feat that can't be picked up as a bonus feat? That's just crazy! The feat Stava Training does have one other great bonus though, you get to be treated as one size larger when grappling.

If you think that the feat is too good, you could just drop one of the benefits of the feat for your game, but that would be a house rule. This is a problem with many things in GaW, many things are just that much better then in the other Saga books! I think the designer is just trying to save face by nerfing things after the fact. They let power creep into the game and then try to make up for it later...

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It is a very wonky feat, like most of the books without errata.

As written it never says if the attack "hits." It only says if the attack roll is "successful." Of course it doesn't clarify things but it points out that the intentions are there, just not obvious or close to well written.

So it seems as written you could rule it either way:
A) Character charges, makes an attack roll  with the +2 bonus for charging, upon success make another attack roll (-5 if grab), and finally if previous attack roll was successful and character is grappling instead of grabbing make an opposed grapple check.

B) Character charges, makes an attack roll  with the +2 bonus for charging, roll damage, upon success make another attack roll (-5 if grab), and finally if previous attack roll was successful and character is grappling instead of grabbing make an opposed grapple check.


Only difference is whether initial attack actually deals damage or not. Personally I hate the SWSE grapple system and use a modified 3.5 grapple system so my players can grapple on a charge anyways.
Post count doesn't mean anything. Read the books, open your eyes, and try using common sense.
Interesting, I always thought Stava training eliminated doing unarmed damage at the end of the charge but instead used the unarmed attack roll +2 as the grapple check itself, which you'd need Pin for and then if you had Crush could still deal unarmed damage as part of the grapple. I need to re read the feat apparently.
I am Blue/Black
It is a very wonky feat, like most of the books without errata.


Yeah, I definitely could have worded the feat a lot better.

While the link provided above relates to how I'd intended to work when I had the feat in mind, the way it would officially work would be thus:

Step 1) The Stava trainee charges their intended target as a standard action.
Step 2) Stava trainee makes an unarmed attack roll, dealing unarmed damage.
Step 3) As a free action, Stava trainee uses their unarmed attack roll to initiate a grab*
Step 4) Target is now grabbed.
Step 5) ???
Step 6) Profit Smile

*or start a grapple if they have Pin or Trip.

Personally, I run the feat as bypassing the unarmed damage and free action and going right to the grab.  It also plays with the notion of synergy that quite a few of the Martial Arts feats had, in that while good in and of themselves, combo them with certain feats and talents (and not just the Martial Arts Master prestige class ones) to make them really great.  I pitted the players in my on-hiatus SWSE home game against some Noghri grapplers with Trip and Throw.  Was quite amusing to see the big burly Wookiee getting tossed around like a rag doll Laughing
"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid." - Eddie Izzard Proud member of the Gamer Nation.
While the link provided above relates to how I'd intended [it] to work when I had the feat in mind, the way it would officially work would be thus:

Step 1) The Stava trainee charges their intended target as a standard action.
Step 2) Stava trainee makes an unarmed attack roll, dealing unarmed damage.
Step 3) As a free action, Stava trainee uses their unarmed attack roll to initiate a grab*

*or start a grapple if they have Pin or Trip.

Yes, that is how I read the feat as well. It is actually pretty clear on this. So it is RAW but not RAI...

Anyway, has anyone thought about that Stava Training has Running attack as a requirement? Unless you also have Deaft Charge, there is no way that you can gain the benefit from both feats in the same turn. Normally initiating a grab is a full round action, so no use for Running Attack there. Stava training gives you a free extra grab/grapple attack on a charge, but as you turn ends immediately after the attack(s) when you charge, there is no use for Running Attack there either. Usually most feats combines well with the prerequisites of said feat, but not so for Stava Training...

With Deaft Charge you could charge your target, hit your target once, maybe knock him out with Cruch, and then continue the charge in behind cover...! Now that would look nice, wouldn't it?

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Anyway, has anyone thought about that Stava Training has Running attack as a requirement? Unless you also have Deaft Charge, there is no way that you can gain the benefit from both feats in the same turn. Normally initiating a grab is a full round action, so no use for Running Attack there. Stava training gives you a free extra grab/grapple attack on a charge, but as you turn ends immediately after the attack(s) when you charge, there is no use for Running Attack there either. Usually most feats combines well with the prerequisites of said feat, but not so for Stava Training...

With Deaft Charge you could charge your target, hit your target once, maybe knock him out with Cruch, and then continue the charge in behind cover...! Now that would look nice, wouldn't it?



The Running Attack prerequisite doesn't make much sense for Stava Training. But it still doesn't beat the insane prerequisite for Trakata (BAB +12), a talend that does the same thing as Combat Trickery, which is a feat that can be selected at level 1.


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The Running Attack prerequisite doesn't make much sense for Stava Training. But it still doesn't beat the insane prerequisite for Trakata (BAB +12), a talend that does the same thing as Combat Trickery, which is a feat that can be selected at level 1.

The thing is that Trakata may have other effects, like combining with certain LS force powers. But even so, that still require further investment to be any better. So the reason for this must just be power creep.

At least you have good use for your BAB 12+ when using Trakata. Running Attack won't make you happy while using Stava Training...

Anyway two wrongs does not make one right!

  

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Anyway, has anyone thought about that Stava Training has Running attack as a requirement? Unless you also have Deaft Charge, there is no way that you can gain the benefit from both feats in the same turn. Normally initiating a grab is a full round action, so no use for Running Attack there. Stava training gives you a free extra grab/grapple attack on a charge, but as you turn ends immediately after the attack(s) when you charge, there is no use for Running Attack there either. Usually most feats combines well with the prerequisites of said feat, but not so for Stava Training...


As for Running Attack as a requirement, that was due mostly to the fact that Noghri, for whom Stava is nearly a species ability, get Running Attack as a racial bonus feat according to their write-up in Force Unleashed.  Does it immediately work with charge attacks?  Nope, but considering how much of a perk it gives for grabs and especially grapples (getting a +5 bonus to your Grapple check), the feat is pretty good even without something like Deft Charge.

As for how it works, I was actually discussing this with some fellow gamers a few days ago, and I agree that it wouldn't break the game (at least no more than some of the martial arts stuff I wrote already did according to GM Chris) if you ditched the "free action" and changed the bit about making a grab to occur at the same time as damage is dealt from the unarmed attack.  So just an option to make the feat a little more useable out of the box without being required to take a feat (Deft Charge) just to use it as written.

"If you've never seen an elephant ski, then you've never been on acid." - Eddie Izzard Proud member of the Gamer Nation.
As for Running Attack as a requirement, that was due mostly to the fact that Noghri, for whom Stava is nearly a species ability, get Running Attack as a racial bonus feat according to their write-up in Force Unleashed.  Does it immediately work with charge attacks?  Nope, but considering how much of a perk it gives for grabs and especially grapples (getting a +5 bonus to your Grapple check), the feat is pretty good even without something like Deft Charge.

Yea, I can see the logic behind that. I was thinking about that too, that one more feat is a small price to pay to gain access to this great feat. After all it was the first time I could make a viable build that for a melee CT-killer by 6th or 7th level!

As for how it works, I was actually discussing this with some fellow gamers a few days ago, and I agree that it wouldn't break the game (at least no more than some of the martial arts stuff I wrote already did according to GM Chris) if you ditched the "free action" and changed the bit about making a grab to occur at the same time as damage is dealt from the unarmed attack.  So just an option to make the feat a little more useable out of the box without being required to take a feat (Deft Charge) just to use it as written.

So what you are saying is that according to RAW, you could not make that free action to initiate a grab or a grapple? Why because the round ends immediately after resolving the attack? Well, that is one way to read it. I however read it as that this feat let you do that free action even on a charge. This is how most feat works anyway, they let you do something that you normally can't do. Even so, removing the last part of the offending sentence: "...as a free action", or even replacing it with: "...as a part of that attack", would probably make it easier to read correctly.

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