I'm having an issue with one of the other players in my group

We are both playing Jedi.  He wants to go sith, and as such picked all dark side powers.  I'm trying to stay light side (my character looks at actions instead of the actual use of a dark side power).  The problem is, he has used force lightning in an obvious way.

When I confronted him, he was like "My character doesn't know it's evil".

I want to contact the council and have someone come in and take care of it, but I as a player do not want to ruin his fun or his character.

How best do I go about this?
Talk to your GM and the other player.  Does your GM rule that dark-side characters are automatically NPCs?  If so, then the player will lose his character and you no longer need to worry about it.  Does the other player want to fall to the dark side and then come back?  Then you can roleplay that.

Just remember, don't let the game affect your friendship.
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Do what your character would do.

You claim you don't want to ruin his fun or his character but he is already a Sith who doesn't care one bit about your our your weak little character.  His character knows he's doing evil and your character should even be able to sense it (there should be a sidebar in the SECR about sensing the darkside) so ignorance is definitely NOT a valid excuse.

While I would STRONGLY discourage such a character at the GM the moment his character goes Dark, and he may not even be fully aware of when that is going to happen depending on the other things he may do to pick up Darkside points, it's mine!  I hope he had fun playing the evil sod because now it's my turn to take the fallen Jedi and use him against the party as I see fit.

The ONLY reason any one should ever play a Sith is when that is they type of campaign the GM is planning and everyone should know about it when they create their characters.  I someone wants to play a falling Jedi that is a slightly different manner because while he may have some dark tendencies they should never dominate the character and the character should try to resist them.
 
The GM is going to let him go dark side.
The GM is going to let him go dark side.

Your avatar diplicts how I'd feel about that.

Unless there's a lot going on that I'd consider unusual I sense a campaign ripe for disaster.  Having a Jedi and a Sith in the same party is NOT realistically sustainable for very long.  Unless someone could explain to me why that should "work" I believe it would come to blows quickly as one character or the needs to (or is forced to) leave the party.

Now the other character may not be dark yet so have your character do EVERYTHING he can to prevent that from happening.  If this means telling the Council then you should DEFINITELY do that and if they don't respond keep at it.  I don't know why you're GM is letting him go dark but he should realize that it will tear the party apart.
 
SW Saga isn't the game for having Jedi and Sith in the same party. That sort of thing just doesn't work without a rules set designed for it, like the Smallville RPG.
SW Saga isn't the game for having Jedi and Sith in the same party. That sort of thing just doesn't work without a rules set designed for it, like the Smallville RPG.

Normally that won't work out. But if you are playing an intrigue heavy game it could work. But that would normally only work if the Sith is masking as a Jedi or a non-force user. If the Sith manage to corrupt a Jedi or other player in the group, it could be interesting...

But when the Sith is out in the open, all bets are of! This will lead to a confrontation or a party split. However Sith and Jedi have been known to be able to come together to fight an outside threat for a short time IF we are to believe the EU on this, but that is always a short lived and fragile alliance at best.

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SW Saga isn't the game for having Jedi and Sith in the same party. That sort of thing just doesn't work without a rules set designed for it, like the Smallville RPG.

Normally that won't work out. But if you are playing an intrigue heavy game it could work. But that would normally only work if the Sith is masking as a Jedi or a non-force user. If the Sith manage to corrupt a Jedi or other player in the group, it could be interesting...


Eh, Saga doesn't have any significant rules support for intrigue, morality, relationships between characters, etc. If I wanted to do that sort of thing, I would do it with a system that gives me the tools for it.


The Smallville RPG I mentioned is the only rpg I can think of where you could have Luke, Vader, Han, and 3PO as PCs and not run into any trouble with regards to party coherence or power balance between the characters.



But when the Sith is out in the open, all bets are of! This will lead to a confrontation or a party split. However Sith and Jedi have been known to be able to come together to fight an outside threat for a short time IF we are to believe the EU on this, but that is always a short lived and fragile alliance at best.




Yeah, it made me think of the latest novel series.

With such diametrically opposed characters, and a Sith wannabe that is clearly using the Dark Side of the Force without trying to hide it from your Jedi, I don't see how the game can just keep going forward without this becoming the central focus of the campaign.

Presumably you have had the discussion with the GM and player about where this is going and everyone is cool with the eventual PC vs PC clash.

As Obi Wan showed us in the prequels, a good Jedi can ignore a lot of another Jedi's clearly dark-leaning behavior without running to the Council or immediately turning to lightsaber blows.  Keep the roleplay going for a while with discussions about the light and dark, blah blah. 

It is only at the point that his character actually turns Dark Side that things come to loggerheads.  When that happens, you will have to confront the Sith to either turn back to good or cut him down in a big emotional battle about "you're my friend" and stuff.  Be sure to have Sever Force for this occasion.

Personally, if another player was hell bent on having a Sith regardless of the effects on the game, I would just have my character turn dark as well and accept the change in tone from good guys to bad guys.

Normally that won't work out. But if you are playing an intrigue heavy game it could work. But that would normally only work if the Sith is masking as a Jedi or a non-force user. If the Sith manage to corrupt a Jedi or other player in the group, it could be interesting...

Eh, Saga doesn't have any significant rules support for intrigue, morality, relationships between characters, etc. If I wanted to do that sort of thing, I would do it with a system that gives me the tools for it.

Well, I think it is the GM and players that set the tone of the game. IF they want to play intrigue heavy game they can do that with any system. Now a system that caters especially to that sort of thing, sounds interesting! I never had a system like that when playing, we just did it with role playing.

Personally, if another player was hell bent on having a Sith regardless of the effects on the game, I would just have my character turn dark as well and accept the change in tone from good guys to bad guys.

That is an exelent idea!

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] Well, I think it is the GM and players that set the tone of the game. IF they want to play intrigue heavy game they can do that with any system. Now a system that caters especially to that sort of thing, sounds interesting! I never had a system like that when playing, we just did it with role playing.




Like I mentioned upthread, the Smallville RPG is perfect for that sort of thing. It's designed to do any story of interpersonal drama & morality - whether you want to do Jedi + Sith family dynamics, The Sopranos, or teen superheroes in love.


I believe that if intrigue is something the players want to focus on, the game they choose should offer rules to support it. Otherwise it'd be like a supposedly action-heavy game without any combat rules. If the point of the game is X, then it should very well give people the means to do X within the framework of the system.


I believe that if intrigue is something the players want to focus on, the game they choose should offer rules to support it. Otherwise it'd be like a supposedly action-heavy game without any combat rules. If the point of the game is X, then it should very well give people the means to do X within the framework of the system.




I don't buy that analogy. In my experience, roleplaying games work perfectly well as originally designed, using dice rolls to provide objective results for combat and success/fail skills (picking a lock, defusing a bomb, using telekinesis to life X amount, etc) and roleplaying social situations. For example, I've got a Marvel Super-Heroes game where interpersonal relationships/conflict are a regular part of it, but there are no game mechanics for this. Don't need any.

I don't think you need game mechanics for light side/dark side either. You don't need dark side points, you don't need dice rolls/bonuses/whatever related to interpersonal relationships. Just roleplay it.

That's no criticism of the Smallville RPG, with which I have zero experience. I'm just saying there's not an equal need for game mechanics across the board in order to have a fun game. 
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I don't see a distinction between combat or social interactions. They're all just conflict resolution and should use the same general system.


"I punch him in the kidney" and "I talk him out of pushing the bomb's trigger" should both have equal weights, rules-wise.


 


"I punch him in the kidney" and "I talk him out of pushing the bomb's trigger" should both have equal weights, rules-wise.




If that's literally how you play the game, then yes.
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If that's literally how you play the game, then yes.


What do you mean by that?
 

If that's literally how you play the game, then yes.


What do you mean by that?



I think what FTJ meant was that if you resolve the "talking him out of pushing the bombs trigger" by merely declaring that action and resolving it  through a roll of the dice rather than actually roleplaying the conversation out...they would have equal weights rules wise.

The old case of roleplaying versus "roll-playing."
 

If that's literally how you play the game, then yes.


What do you mean by that?



I think what FTJ meant was that if you resolve the "talking him out of pushing the bombs trigger" by merely declaring that action and resolving it  through a roll of the dice rather than actually roleplaying the conversation out...they would have equal weights rules wise.



No, I don't think they would. Consider how many rules and rolls are involved in a single combat (too many in Saga, in my opinion, but let's just use it as an example). How would reducing an entire dramatic scene of say a PC talking down a suicide bomber to a single roll give the same "rules weight" to the talk-y scene?


I realize that my two examples aren't equal in how much dramatic time is allocated to each action usually, but in my defense, I wrote that post quickly at 4 AM before going to work.


A social system should be just as involved and interesting and RP-facilitating as the combat system in most games is.


In a good Star Wars game, Vader telling Luke "I knew your mom. Like, Biblically." should be even more mechanically devastating to Luke than the loss of his hand. Certainly it's that way in the movie!

I think its a matter of preference; some people enjoy a concrete and elaborate system for resolving social interactions, etc while others would prefer that there really be no rules at all for such things. And of course there are all the places in between.

Sure.


But consider that a solid set of social rules and a conflict resolution system where killing the other guy isn't a preferred outcome make stuff like having a Jedi and a Sith in the same party great fun as opposed to a headache.


That's why I like a good social rule system. It facilitates fun.


Sure.


But consider that a solid set of social rules and a conflict resolution system where killing the other guy isn't a preferred outcome make stuff like having a Jedi and a Sith in the same party great fun as opposed to a headache.


That's why I like a good social rule system. It facilitates fun.




It certainly does sound interesting. I am tempted to look into it further thats for sure....

By the way, OP, I'm sorry your thread got so derailed. Sounds like the GM needs to make a ruling there of some sort.


In a good Star Wars game, Vader telling Luke "I knew your mom. Like, Biblically." should be even more mechanically devastating to Luke than the loss of his hand. Certainly it's that way in the movie!




I think I understand the possibility here, but I wouldn't categorize that as falling into the "task resolution" category. More like some system of "story points" which you can simply declare whenever you want to. In this case it would be a bit like a Destiny Point auto-crit, except requiring you to describe the Story Point in dramatic terms rather than as a direct substitute for an attack roll.

Saga isn't all that far removed from a mechanic like that, given that both Destiny Points and the Condition Track are already described in terms of their mechanical effects. Either or both could be tweaked for Story Point use without requiring a huge effort.

My problem with it personally would be that I already dislike Destiny Points and don't use them. They're great for describing how it is that highly improbable feats happen on cue in the movies, but in game play nothing is more boring than, "I spend a Destiny Point." So I have my doubts about whether having mechanical effects for Story Points would actually appeal to me, or make intra-party conflict more fun.
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I kind of think that resolving this issue is up to how long the GM can come up with storylines where your Jedi PC and the other player's Sith PC could be required to band together to overcome the obstacles/adversaries of the story.

Consider the movie Enemy Mine or the episode of the Clone Wars cartoon where Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan get captured by Weequay pirates.  I could see the two characters being required by circumstances to work together to get out of a fix, or survive on a harsh planet, or whatever.  Eventually, the GM's going to run out of ideas, and having these two diametrically opposed PCs in the same party will become too difficult.  

Maybe the GM's already got an idea how long he's going to allow the character to be dark before requiring the player to decide to either redeem him or surrender him as an NPC villain (or kill him).  Maybe not.

Either way, I'd say discuss this issue with the GM and the other player before you start your next session.  Come to an agreement how to handle it, and then go along with the agreement.  

It may be that you decide to return to Coruscant to inform the Council that he's gone Dark.  He catches wind of your plan and pursues you in his own starfighter.  The two of you engage in a dogfight and go down over an uninhabited planet, where you are both required to work together to survive the harsh conditions.  That story arc could go on for a good long time.  
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Quite aside from the issue of mechanics/systems, this kind of stuff is why character concepts and some vague notions of how the players want their characters to develop should be discussed with the whole group during campaign brainstorming & character creation.


Much less likely to end with the taking of the ball and the going home if everyone's on the same page beforehand.



Quite aside from the issue of mechanics/systems, this kind of stuff is why character concepts and some vague notions of how the players want their characters to develop should be discussed with the whole group during campaign brainstorming & character creation.


Much less likely to end with the taking of the ball and the going home if everyone's on the same page beforehand.





Amen.  And in the absence of this kind of forethought, at least have the discussion as soon as possible.  It's not an insurmountable problem if the GM & players involved can come to an out-of-character agreement on how to handle the situation.
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