oozes should be immune to prone. (and other monster side exceptions)

TL:DR  Codified conditions are good.  And exceptions should be frequent and listed on the monster side.


4e did alot to make things simple.  Prone is a condition, with straight forward penalties.  Nothing wrong with that... till you fight something that doesn't seem prone-able, like an ooze.  Then the naritive seems to break.

Now this can be done in 4 different ways... (that i can think of).

1) DM makes a mechanical exception "you can't prone an ooze"

2) DM makes a naritive exception "the ooze is squashed, and takes a move action to recollect".

3) The prone rules make an exception "you can only knock things prone if it has feet,  quadrapeds get  a +5 bonus vs prone."

4) The monster has the exception "the ooze can't be knocked prone,  cat's get a saving throw at +5 to avoid being knocked prone"



4 seems the best to me.

Thoughts?

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It isn't so much the way exceptions are organized as the number of resistances and immunities. 4e had very few, immune poison was really the only one characters ever had to watch out for.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />3e probably had a bit too many, particularly the undead immune to sneak attack problem that often made rogues useless in fights. No class should see a major class feature negated as a feature of common monsters, it should be rare even on exceptional monsters. However, I'm hoping that 5e has more exceptions then 4e. The near total removal often seemed weird, with monsters lacking obvious resistances.

There is also game balance advantage to having resistances and immunities in small reasonable doses. It makes life hard for hyper optimized one-trick ponies, characters that are bad for the game.

As for where the exceptions are listed, they should be listed on the creatures, or on the creature type. However, there needs to be a limited number of places in the rules to check for these things, no elaborate lists of types and sub-types and template modifies layered on. It needs to be held to checking the monster for most stuff and checking the monsters type for rules that apply to all monsters of that type. And the monster builder should give me an option to include all monster type information on the monster's write up when I print it, I just don't want it cluttering up too much space in the printed version to print the special rules for common types such as undead/dragons/outsiders/elemental over and over.

Jay basically said all that is relevant to this topic.
4e did alot to make things simple.  Prone is a condition, with straight forward penalties.  Nothing wrong with that... till you fight something that doesn't seem prone-able, like an ooze.  Then the naritive seems to break.

Now this can be done in 4 different ways... (that i can think of).

1) DM makes a mechanical exception "you can't prone an ooze"

2) DM makes a naritive exception "the ooze is squashed, and takes a move action to recollect".

3) The prone rules make an exception "you can only knock things prone if it has feet,  quadrapeds get  a +5 bonus vs prone."

4) The monster has the exception "the ooze can't be knocked prone,  cat's get a saving throw at +5 to avoid being knocked prone"


4 seems the best to me.

Thoughts?



I prefer 2.  If a creature can't be knocked prone, I'd prefer if it were expressed as a trait.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
A combination of 3 and 4 (mostly 4) should be what the system tries to make happen.  I say some 3 included, because it can become a real bother when building a monster to try and remember everything it should or shouldn't be immune to, so it's OK if there are generalities (ooze's as a category can't be knocked prone, and all ooze's have shared ooze characteristics).  In my mind it should be done with as little considerations for balance as possible.  It should primarily be considering immersion and relatability.

After that, it should default to 1 -- rarely, if ever, should it default to 2.  Players should have the leniency to change the narrative at DM discretion, but DM's should be changing the rules to fit the narrative.  This is how I'd like to see it go down, regardless of what the rules actually say about Oozes and knocking them prone.

4e:
Situation A:
Player 1: I swing my mace, using my power "Go for the Knees!" to trip the ooze and knock it prone.
DM: Well, the ooze has no legs and isn't tripped, your attack still deals its damage, though.

Situation B:
Player 2: I have a power called "Go for the Knees!" that lets me trip a target to knock it prone.  Since I'm wielding a blunt weapon, can I try to squash the ooze a bit, so it can be considered prone?
DM: Hmm, if you beat its defense by 3 or higher, OK, it will need to take a move action to recollect, but it won't be considered prone.

3e:
Player 1: I want to make a trip attack against the ooze to knock it prone.
DM: Well, the ooze can't be tripped, but you can make a normal attack.

Player 2: I'd like to squash the ooze with my mace, can that function like a trip attack with a whip against a target with legs?
DM: Hmm, go ahead and make a trip attack with a -3 penalty.  If it's successful, the ooze will spend his move to recollect, but it won't be considered prone.


The biggest problem I have, is that if the default rules aren't built with immersion in mind, a player might have a power that let's him trip things to knock them prone.  When oozes don't say they can't be tripped or can't be knocked prone, that player expects that power to work as is.  It makes for a very immersion breaking game when the narrative doesn't need to be changed by anyone, because the default game places balance on a higher pedestal than immersion.

And honestly, it puts the group as a whole in a better position if I don't need to restrict what a player's character sheet says they can do because the narrative is immersion breaking (because I will -- I'm not going to create the narrative change for the player), but instead can allow the player to build a new narrative so he or she can get around the rule.

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2 and 4 are basically the same thing, and are basically the way I like it. None of that "Well hags are half undead and all undead are immune to bluh, so... half immunity?"

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Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
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144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
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57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
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57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
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56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
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56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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57545908 wrote:
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58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
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57078538 wrote:
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Round 1. Lets rock.
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56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
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On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
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56957928 wrote:
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10/10. Amazing.


2) DM makes a naritive exception "the ooze is squashed, and takes a move action to recollect".



This is the best way to handle it, as it ensures a fair playing field.  You don't wind up with abilities nerfed; characters get to do cool stuff, which is the reason we play this game.
2 and 4 are basically the same thing, and are basically the way I like it. None of that "Well hags are half undead and all undead are immune to bluh, so... half immunity?"



In case 2, the ooze still has the mechanical condition "Prone", but it's described differently.


In case 4, the ooze is immune to prone and nothing happens.
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4e did alot to make things simple.  Prone is a condition, with straight forward penalties.  Nothing wrong with that... till you fight something that doesn't seem prone-able, like an ooze.


An ooze could be knocked prone in 3e, too.  The ooze subtype gave no immunity to being knocked prone.  Oozes got a bonus to resist being overrun, and presumably get a bonus against tripping.  But you can knock an ooze down the same as any other creature.
Oh God, please No!
Ideally, there'd be no immunity to anything. Instead, monsters would have powers/traits that interact with the condition. On ooze, for instance, might be dazed instead of being proned, and that would be listed in the monster's description.
Personally, I'd justs ay an Ooze can stand and move from prone with the same action. No reason to take the full ammount of penalties for the condition away from them. It's still going to grant combat advantage to melee attacks and all that jazz.
On the subject of combat conditions, too much "realism" breaks the immersion for me. Gets too nitpicky at times, and leaves too many unanswered questions at other times. Yeah, it makes sense that slimes can't be proned, but it doesn't makes sense that they don't fizzle violently when contaced with a salt solution. Sure four-legged animals in real life are harder to tip over, but they also can take grevious injuries if they're tripped while travelling past a certain velocity, or sometimes even just from their own weight.

Short answer, until D&D is designed with an acceptable level of "realism", I'd rather take the narrative approach.

Personally, I'd justs ay an Ooze can stand and move from prone with the same action. No reason to take the full ammount of penalties for the condition away from them. It's still going to grant combat advantage to melee attacks and all that jazz.



Not bad. Slimes are damned slow to begin anyway, so that move action they're saving would've been unlikely to help them much.

People need more imagination. Take a jello snack from the fridge and smash it with your fist and tell me how long it takes to reform...
People need more imagination. Take a jello snack from the fridge and smash it with your fist and tell me how long it takes to reform...



I don't think people lack imagination, it's that they adhere to a definition - as they should.  The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.  Hence, why an ooze shouldn't be allowed to be knocked prone.  If you used a different term, say stun, then if might make more sense.  And in the end, that's what people are asking for, for things to make sense.

As for the debate, I prefer 4. 
The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.


And yet, no one complains that a Xorn can be knocked prone.
The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.



Technically, prone means on the ground on its front.  If the creature's on its back it's supine.

Hoard: may earn you gp; Horde: may earn you xp.
The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.



Technically, prone means on the ground on its front.  If the creature's on its back it's supine.




Good point.
People need more imagination. Take a jello snack from the fridge and smash it with your fist and tell me how long it takes to reform...



I don't think people lack imagination, it's that they adhere to a definition - as they should.  The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.  Hence, why an ooze shouldn't be allowed to be knocked prone.  If you used a different term, say stun, then if might make more sense.  And in the end, that's what people are asking for, for things to make sense.

As for the debate, I prefer 4. 



The problem is that if two mechanical rules definitions existed that did the same thing, and the two only existed to "make sense" then it makes less sense because it's making the rules more convoluted.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I'm okay with these kind-of corner-case immunities as long as it's done as little as possible. Frankly, I would gladly trade Demon's energy immunity for an Ooze never falling prone, as the latter makes so much more sense than the latter.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

People need more imagination. Take a jello snack from the fridge and smash it with your fist and tell me how long it takes to reform...



I don't think people lack imagination, it's that they adhere to a definition - as they should.  The word prone implies something falling to the ground on its back.  Hence, why an ooze shouldn't be allowed to be knocked prone.  If you used a different term, say stun, then if might make more sense.  And in the end, that's what people are asking for, for things to make sense.

As for the debate, I prefer 4. 



It isn't supposed to be taken literally, though. It's just a condition that applies certain effects. There are ways to explain why those effects happen. If you need to make another ability that is identical but says something other than "prone", it is a waste of design space. It's like making 16 different swords that are all 1d6 damage just because they have different names. 
@Alter_Boy

Outsiders never made sense, period.
 
2) DM makes a naritive exception "the ooze is squashed, and takes a move action to recollect". 



I the player describe my knock down assault as something appropriate to the current situation and targetin the first place... 
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier



They kind of are. Someone apparently thought that having a giant jello mold as a monster was a good idea at some point, though. :P
Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier



They kind of are. Someone apparently thought that having a giant jello mold as a monster was a good idea at some point, though. :P


I'm not fond of the oozes as they're presented.  However, I had a science teacher tell me about how it seems that some ooze-like organisms in real life (bacteria and such) seem to have a collective kind of intellect, even if it's a primordial proto-intellect.  They are apparently capable of recognizing others of their kind, communicating with them, and some even lie dormant until they have reproduced enough to attack the creature they're on.  I would like oozes to be more like this.  Make them more sentient.  I want oozes to form tendrils and gaping maws.  Make them lurch up into vaguely animal/humanoid shapes.  Then, not only does prone work against them, but they seem like much cooler monsters and less like creatures that should have been designed as traps (IMO).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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#BoobsNotBlood

Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier



They kind of are. Someone apparently thought that having a giant jello mold as a monster was a good idea at some point, though. :P


I'm not fond of the oozes as they're presented.  However, I had a science teacher tell me about how it seems that some ooze-like organisms in real life (bacteria and such) seem to have a collective kind of intellect, even if it's a primordial proto-intellect.  They are apparently capable of recognizing others of their kind, communicating with them, and some even lie dormant until they have reproduced enough to attack the creature they're on.  I would like oozes to be more like this.  Make them more sentient.  I want oozes to form tendrils and gaping maws.  Make them lurch up into vaguely animal/humanoid shapes.  Then, not only does prone work against them, but they seem like much cooler monsters and less like creatures that should have been designed as traps (IMO).



Definitely better than the Jello mold.

Maybe the designers just applied the universal rule to D&D. There's always room for Jello.
Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier



They kind of are. Someone apparently thought that having a giant jello mold as a monster was a good idea at some point, though. :P



But I <3 Flans.  They're so creepy.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Ooozes are nonsense in the first place... drop them off a short pier



They kind of are. Someone apparently thought that having a giant jello mold as a monster was a good idea at some point, though. :P


I'm not fond of the oozes as they're presented.  However, I had a science teacher tell me about how it seems that some ooze-like organisms in real life (bacteria and such) seem to have a collective kind of intellect, even if it's a primordial proto-intellect.  They are apparently capable of recognizing others of their kind, communicating with them, and some even lie dormant until they have reproduced enough to attack the creature they're on.  I would like oozes to be more like this.  Make them more sentient.  I want oozes to form tendrils and gaping maws.  Make them lurch up into vaguely animal/humanoid shapes.  Then, not only does prone work against them, but they seem like much cooler monsters and less like creatures that should have been designed as traps (IMO).



Definitely better than the Jello mold.

Maybe the designers just applied the universal rule to D&D. There's always room for Jello.


There is always room for jello in D&D.  I just like mine at the table instead of in the game.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

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#BoobsNotBlood

Most arguments of the sort are just excuses to nerf martial capabilities with a thin disguise on. The various martial abilities get this arm long list if conditions under which they wont work like 3e did and everything a spell caster does will just work left right and center. The spell caster will have an effect which works perfectly on that ooze disrupting it just like a prone effect, because you know its magic.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Most arguments of the sort are just excuses to nerf martial capabilities with a thin disguise on. The various martial abilities get this arm long list if conditions under which they wont work like 3e did and everything a spell caster does will just work left right and center. The spell caster will have an effect which works perfectly on that ooze disrupting it just like a prone effect, because you know its magic.


IDK about that.  I think a fair portion of the arguement against it is because of how people think of physical attacks and magic.  Physical attacks are bound by physcial laws, whereas magic is sparkly and elusive.  If a physical attack is able to do things that seem impossible or unrealistic to do, then some people (although not me) have difficulty refluffing it into a more plausible effect because we are conditioned to believe that that which is physical can only do that which is physically possible and rational.

There are certainly some people who just want non-casters to suck when compared to casters, and they make up a share of the argument as well, I'm sure.  However, I'm not sure if it's fair to say most of it comes from that motivation.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

#BoobsNotBlood

2. Just describe it differently. Standardized conditions are great because they are easy to remember, easy to apply and easy to balance. The effect can be described in a thousand different ways, of course, of which 2 is a good one in this case.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
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I posted this in the other thread before I saw this one.
I will acknowledge that narratively puddings and oozes could be immune to being knocked "prone". They don't have feet and legs so they can't be knocked off of them.

However mechanically there is no reason for it. Looking at the text of prone:
1. You grant combat advantage to melee attacks. That simply means you give a little advantage to whoever is next to you.
2. You can't move from your space. Although teleport, crawl, pull, push and slide still work. Do puddings and oozes actually do anything OTHER than crawl?
3. +2 to AC against ranged attacks from non adjacent enemies. Is an AC bonus a huge narrative thing?
4. You're lying on the ground. Where are the puddings and oozes in your games?
5. -2 penalty to attacks. Another non narrative mechanical effect.
6. You can voluntarily do it as a minor action. Choice.

I don't see from these things what the big narrative issue is.



I also have wondered if the narrative types have never fried an egg. Because if they have, and have a problem with "prone" oozes then they must all be inhumanly perfect master chefs.

Seriously go fry an egg.

What happens if you don't get the spatula all the way under it when you flip it over the first time?

How does that not apply?

How can you not see the concept?

To me it really is the SAME thing. You mix up the ooze and it has to take a bit of effort to overcome its own surface tension to get back to full effectiveness.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

If a physical attack is able to do things that seem impossible or unrealistic to do, then some people (although not me) have difficulty refluffing it into a more plausible effect because we are conditioned to believe that that which is physical can only do that which is physically possible and rational.
 


The key ingredient is allowing the martial trick to involve more than one method by which it occurs 
and the problem occurs with people who are pre-conditioned to thinking things are... "I hit it with my sword" 

An attack towards a vulnerable spot for instance can influence even something as huge as a dragon to move itself in a way which you desire.

 Anything which has needs and desires and fears can be influenced to move and beyond that strength and mass of an adversaries own attacks can be used against itself. 
 
Realizing how really versatile the influence as well as the direct effects of a physical attack or of an apparent opening you have left, can be is one component... hey look a crossbow bolt to the brain...could be instant death, but it could also be a an allignment change that isnt even deadly.

And his attack scrambled or squashed the ooze (who cares if the power says prone its a mechanical word like hit points) because the heroic fighter has unusual luck and insight ... ooh look the fighter isnt a dunce.

Double standards and preconditioning.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

2. Just describe it differently. Standardized conditions are great because they are easy to remember, easy to apply and easy to balance. The effect can be described in a thousand different ways, of course, of which 2 is a good one in this case.

Exactly.

"Prone" is a D&D term.  Applying the dictionary term fails and you will find this is consistent with most D&D terms.  It was chosen because it was determined that "prone" best describes the condition when applied to a generic target.  If the word "prone" forms such a mental roadblock, please feel free to replace the name "prone" with "Condition 12."  Continue play as usual.
 
This same semantical argument could be used for the condition "unconscious" and "dead" when describing undead when those conditions are applied.  After all, undead can't be conscious and are already dead.  Why aren't people so offended by that?  Answer: because we are intelligent human beings that don't need to to have every last detail explained to us like 2 year olds.  We can do it ourselves.
   
If you are still unable to make the adjustment, just imagine each condition condition prefaced with the phrase, "For all intents and purposes, the (target) is (condition)"   You will find it works, just about every time.

Celebrate our differences.

Personally, I'd justs ay an Ooze can stand and move from prone with the same action. No reason to take the full ammount of penalties for the condition away from them. It's still going to grant combat advantage to melee attacks and all that jazz.



Or indicate a prone ooze is generally squashed but still considered standing with regards to the effect of ranged attacks.(note that means it is as easy to hit prone as otherwise and this is actually not an advantge) 
....

Guys do we really need a million conditions?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


2) DM makes a naritive exception "the ooze is squashed, and takes a move action to recollect".



Prone is actually just an abstract representation of a combatant's state of vulnerability. As a game mechanical condition it doesn't necessarilly litereally mean "lying flat on the ground". So #2 isn't an "exception", it's just a more accurate description of what is happening to the ooze when it gains the game condition Prone.


Not that you couldn't theoretically create an ooze or other creature that is immune to the Prone condition.  I'm just saying that there's nothing inherently wrong with an ooze gaining the Prone condition as it exists in 4e.
I think that the whole "prone" condition is dumb... And not really that frequent in fiction/real like as in D&D (at least, not frequent in mid-fight like in D&D, being prone generally is the prelude to being defeated or to show off some clever trick that wins you the victory). I almost never descrive it as actually falling on the ground anyway.

Just change the condition in "Distressed" and bam, no problem at all...
5.  A DM could realize that the pudding is ALREADY prone, unless it is on a wall or on a ceiling!

-DS

This is a game of expression and exploration. You're right that there are a lot of complaints about how bad these rules are. But it's not because they're not following the rules, it's because they're not breaking them.”  --- akhenmosis

Garth, while I agree that we need to make sure immunities don't overly affect one class (such as the rogue and undead), there no particular reason to think that not allowing proneing oozes is part Of a conspiracy to nerf fighters. Sure, some common cool tropes are more likely to hit fighters (such as the Mimic in p.f. We fought that any attack had a chance to stick into - which oddly affected the melee classes more), but imaging a world of fire resistant, cold resistant, magic missile resistant monsters USB that hard.
As for the op - I'm fine with option 4, or option 2. We had this happen day 2 of our campaign, we laughed, we decided that a ooze can have an up, and we moved on. Had the rules told me that oozes were immune, we'd be fine with that too. Just make sure that immunities hit every class equally - which means immunity to bows at some point as well.
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