A Protest Against Epic Powers that Weren't

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Epic Powers that weren't So Epic (but should have been)

When I read through the 4e, I was shocked at how cool some of the powers and spells sounded, but disappointed at how overblown their titles were. I think it would be great if these powers actually did something resembling their title or flavor text, instead of just another '3d10+Cha mod' or whatever.

some Trends:
Obviously, almost anything "of Doom" needs to be more badass and high level.
Anything using absolutes like "ultimate", "unbreakable" or whatever needs to be epic.
Anything that sounds like the fabric of space, time, or reality is being attacked, should be doing so, and should be awesome. 5d10 + Stat modifier is Not awesome.
I didn't get to many other classes like the psions or monks, I don't think I'll have to.
I've bolded the ones that really, really ought to be more impressive than they are. I've underlined the ones that are just completely ridiculous.


The List
----------

Split the Sky
Weapon of the Gods
Divine Power
Mantle of Glory
Plague of Doom
Divine Armor
Holy Wrath
Angel of the Eleven Winds
Astral Blades of Death
Nimbus of Doom
Astral Storm
Godstrike (WTH is that?)
Astral Wave
Angelic Presence
Prophecy of Doom
Angel Ascendant
Hammer of Fate
Solar Wrath (there goes my planet...)
=---
Boundless Endurance
Unstoppable (Juggernaut?)
Rain of Blows
Rain of Steel
Unbreakable
Chains of Sorrow (what does that even mean?)
Anvil of Doom
Storm of Blows
Iron Warrior
Vorpal Tornado (oh come on!)
Mountain Breaking Blow (facepalm)
Devastation's Wake
Adamantine Strike
Cruel Reaper
Storm of Destruction
Ultimate Parry
-------
Martyr's Retribution
Wrath of the Gods (double facepalm)
Crown of Glory
Angelic Intercession (why isn't this a summoning spell?)
Hand of the Gods
Angelic Rescue (another summoning spell?)
Gift of Life
Sublime Transposition
Exalted Retribution
To the Nine Hells with You (Banishment?)
Brand of Judgment
Deific Vengeance
Astral Whirlwind
---------------
Excruiciating Shot
Spray of Arrows
Blade Cascade (WTF is that?)
Arrow of Vengeance
Two Weapon Eviscerate (called shot?)
Master of the Hunt
Bloodstorm (it better be raining blood...of doom)
Unstoppable Arrows
Wandering Tornado
Archer's Glory
Hunter's Grace
----------------
Torturous Strike
Master of Deciet
Trickster's Blade (sounds like a magic item)
Tornado Strike
Slaying Strike
Bloody Path
Hurricane of Blood (you gotta be kidding me)
Perfect Strike (ORLY?)
Redirected Death
Meditation of the Blade
Killer's Eye (Death Rays?)
Final Blow
--------------
Dread Star (where's Galactus?)
Soul Flaying (it attacks souls, right?)
Warlock's Bargain (you trade your soul for a wish?)
Thirteen Baleful Stars
Banish to the Void
Curse of the Fey King
Hurl through Hell
Long Fall into Darkness
Soul Scorch (Hellraiser?)
Life spark Summons (Summon Souls?)
Soul Theft
--------
Warlord's Strike
Lion's Roar
Hail of Steel
Windmill of Doom
Heart of the Titan
Warlord's Doom
Defy Death
Stand Invincible
Diamond Blade of Victory
--------------
Thunderwave
Winter's Wrath
Thunderlance
Maelstrom of Chaos
Corellan's Blade


Why make 15 powers that all do 3d8 or 2d10 +stat damage? Why not make something truly epic? Why even bother when you could have one fireball adding a single d6 per level and still end up with a better attack than all the ones listed here? It's too much. The Fluff has gone haywire. You have all these cool godlike power titles and all these characters getting to levels 25-30+ and none of them have any truly epic abilities. Why not just take a dozen or so of these Fancy titles and simply have them do what they say they do?

Your Epic Level Handbook/Deities Demigods book is practically half written already.

Options are Liberating
YES! you have hit the nail on the head.
This is the result of trying to give every class the same number of equal abilities, then trying to make each class feel unique. You have to come up with a different name, and flavor text, for the same ability for each class; and, when you run out of good names, you have to make up something (which, as shown here, becomes an exercise in silliness).

I think, if you must have a system like the AEDU system, you just make a list of common powers with specified damage levels and no damage type specified. The damage type should be related to the class, with each class having several damage types available to them for use in different circumstances.

Let the players & DMs come up with their own "flavor text". That is one of the things I like best about being a player or the DM, fitting the action to the story. How well I succeed on an action also has a bearing on the amount of detail/flavor I might use. Plus, it really gets the players excited to hear me give some added flavor to an action that they've just either narrowly succeeded, did phenomenally well, or completely failed on; flavor that relates to or affects the story (as opposed to pre-determined flavor that usully has no bearing on or actually contradicts descriptive events).
Eh, it works pretty well for me, but that's because I don't believe the mechanics should represent the narrative (I'd use constrain, but I think that'd be less easy to understand). I've played a fair share of 4E epic, and describing your action in an epic way works well. For instance, the party wizard was a Planeshaper: every time he cast a scorching burst (level 1 at-will) he sundered the tissue of space-time to hit his enemies with the Everlasting Flame of the Elemental Plane of Fire; when he cast Bigby's Hands it was the hand of Gaia, legendary Titan chained in Hell, which came out of a portal to grasp his enemies. You just have to be creative and get rid of the preconception that everything that happens should be represented in the rules. That's not for everyone, but that's how 4E was built, and that's how it works. You can complain and say you'd have preferred a different assumption, but there is a reason for 4E's epic powers to be standard, and some of us like it that way.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
We discussed this not too long ago... The point is, what truly defines "epic"?

Yeah, in 4e you get a lot of powerful options, with some campy names (I find them funny, so I like them, they are just name in the end). In 3e you get a lot of powerful options with campy names and some ridiculous complex and totally game breaking stuff, expecially if you are a caster. I don't know how older edition fare, since I didn't play them extensively, but I assume that they are similar to 3e. 

Notice that both do not really inspire any kind of epicness. No real "with great power comes great responsability" stuff. In fact, in D&D great power almost always is more reliable than lesser power.
While I dislike epic level in general, I like D&D 4e the better, since at least they are playable (not that I would play them, but whatever). In 3e almost all the epic stuff was broken and unplayable, it's there just for showcasing purpouse...

So yeah, D&D did never actually "get" epic style. For me, a tiny step ahead was done with the immortality thing in 4e, but it was just an isolated improvement and wasn't expanded upon. I think that the immortality was inspired by The Shadow of Yesterday, and probably that is the best inspiration for D&D, TSoY is extremely good when it comes to represent the kind of epic play that D&D strive to achieve.
30 levels waters everything down.  Like when a good band puts out a double album and you wonder to yourself how awesome the single album would have been.  5th should have 20 levels core (I am cool with Optional Rule higher levels - and even cooler if it gets its own well supported book).

If you edited 4e from 30 levels down to 20 levels you could get rid of the filler powers and there would feel like a distinct rise in power at the highest levels.
Please Allow AD&D the opportunity to show you how it's done...

Impervious Sanctity of Mind

Level: 7        Cleric Spell
Duration: 10 minutes per level
Game Effect: When using this spell, the priest renders his mind completely immune to any mind-affecting spell, power, or psionic effect.

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction

Level: 9      Wizard Spell
Range: over 90 yards
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This awful spell brings into existence a short-lived sphere of annihilation, a victim who is unaware of the sphere's appearance or unable to move is destroyed without a saving throw.

Iron Body

Level: 8    Wizard Spell
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This spell transforms the caster's body into living iron, the caster can only be injured by blunt weapons of +3 or better value, or 8th level monsters or higher. Slashing weapons, falling, crushing, and construction attacks of all types are completely unable to harm the caster. Spells or attacks that affect the subject's physiology or respiration fail completely. Spells that have weight limits should be applied to the wizard as if he weighed over 3,000 pounds. The wizard ignores electrical attacks and takes half damage vs. fire, save for 1/4.

Resurrection

Level: 7    Cleric Spell
Game Effect: The priest is able to restore life and complete strength to any living creature, including elves. The creature can have been dead up to 10 years per level of the priest casting the spell. Thus a 19th level priest can ressurect the bones of a creature dead up to 190 years.

Control Weather

Level: 7    Druid Spell
Duration: 8-96 hours
Area of Effect: 8-32 square miles
Game Effect: The Control weather spell enables a priest to change the weather in the local area, e.g. he can cause precipitation to go from partly cloudy to heavy sleet, temperature to go from cool to arctic, and wind to go from strong to Hurricane-typhoon.

Creeping Doom
Level: 7   Druid Spell
Duration: 4 minutes per level
Game Effect: When the caster utters the spell of creeping doom, he calls forth a mass of 500-1000 venomous biting and stinging arachnids, insects, and myriapods in a 20 ft square, moving in the direction in which the caster commands. The creeping doom slays any creature subject to normal attacks, so that up to 1000 points of damage (each of the small horrors inflicts 1 point of damage) can be inflicted on creatures within the path.


... i'll spare you guys the other doom awaiting in spells such as Pierce any Shield, the drow Black Blade of Disaster, Polymorph Other, and the Wujen Wish. Unless you really want to know.


Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.
Options are Liberating
I have been complaining about 4e naming conventions since it came out.  They tend to be grandiose, florid, and utterly unhelpful.  Reading the list above, I couldn't tell you what two-thirds of those powers are intended to accomplish. 
Please Allow AD&D the opportunity to show you how it's done...
*stuff*

Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.



Well, I don't really like any of the implementations.

Impervious Sanctity of the Mind is needless SoD protection which should simply disappear as should SoD. A bonus to Will defense in line with your level fits the niche of this spell much better.
Sphere of Ultimate Destruction seems like a conjuration that deals damage vs Fortitude, maybe with a heightened crit but not necessarily.
Iron Body looks like it should be a buff to AC, some resistance to all damage and maybe a penalty to speed if really needed. 
Creeping Doom should be a druid summon with damage on par with your level.
Resurrection and Control Weather are both rituals and still exist with few (and mostly good) variations.


Really, they are such good concepts, but the implementation is in my opinion pretty lame. 
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Ideas for 5E
This is the result of trying to give every class the same number of equal abilities, then trying to make each class feel unique.

My Translation:  This is the result of having too many classes.

Solution:  Less classes, more diverse options and powers within those classes.

Result:  Far less overlap, duplication, and unnecessary bloat. 
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.
Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.



Absolutely, I despise how every edition implement epic levels :p


Anyway, the real deal in 4e is that with so many classes and with so many powers the creative naming juices of the designers are not going to be enough. So yeah, for every good name there are several silly ones. It's bound to happen, since in the 4e PHB alone there are 600-ish powers where in the 3e one there are 200-ish powers/spells.

On the other hand, changing the name is a no-issue, the manual even encourages it!
Some of my players don't know the full names of their Powers because they don't fit when they print from the CB. 
E
Bloodstorm (it better be raining blood...of doom)



Blood of Doom!!!

Heh awesome.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
I agree, spells need to be awesome, world breaking even, in epic. However, fighters need to be able to SoD a person by flexing their muscles, and a lot of people don't like that idea. Hell, YOU ARE GODS at epic level, or close. Does "realism" and veramiliwhatever need to come into play? Also, epic level is the best way to play, IMO. Heroic bores me to tears.
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Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
I agree, spells need to be awesome, world breaking even, in epic. However, fighters need to be able to SoD a person by flexing their muscles, and a lot of people don't like that idea. Hell, YOU ARE GODS at epic level, or close. Does "realism" and veramiliwhatever need to come into play? Also, epic level is the best way to play, IMO. Heroic bores me to tears.



Verisimilitude. Please look it up, it's not that big a deal. And, yes, verisimilitude should always matter. That said, at the point of epic game play, it's completely within the bounds of verisimilitude for characters (fighters included) to be performing the type of deeds and having the abilities of the characters from myths and legends--from Cuchulain to Gilgamesh to Heracles to Beowulf... At epic level, you've trancended normal reality and are now on par with demigods and such.

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The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

—MechaPilot

Bland utilitarian naming... boring and anti-vancian to boot.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Please Allow AD&D the opportunity to show you how it's done...

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction

Level: 9      Wizard Spell
Range: over 90 yards
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This awful spell brings into existence a short-lived sphere of annihilation, a victim who is unaware of the sphere's appearance or unable to move is destroyed without a saving throw.

Iron Body

Level: 8    Wizard Spell
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This spell transforms the caster's body into living iron, the caster can only be injured by blunt weapons of +3 or better value, or 8th level monsters or higher. Slashing weapons, falling, crushing, and construction attacks of all types are completely unable to harm the caster. Spells or attacks that affect the subject's physiology or respiration fail completely. Spells that have weight limits should be applied to the wizard as if he weighed over 3,000 pounds. The wizard ignores electrical attacks and takes half damage vs. fire, save for 1/4.

Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.




This type of power is nice for the narrative but you have to think about how it plays out mechanically. What happens when your unstoppable force mets my immovable object? You end up with a whole lot of arbitrary and inconsistent rules like this antimagic shell destroys this sphere of annihilation in some games but not others. And it you did have an offical ruling on it what happens when the next expansion comes out - is improved anti magic shell affected in the same way. Game companies are really bad at going back and filling in all those rules.

I'd much prefer to have the narrative description, but then have specific mechanical effect to implement it like - Sphere of Annihilation does 20d6 damage to anything in contact with it per round, Iron body adds +10 to whatever defense except versus +3 or better weapons. It just makes life easier to arbitrate competing descriptions.

Please Allow AD&D the opportunity to show you how it's done...

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction

Level: 9      Wizard Spell
Range: over 90 yards
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This awful spell brings into existence a short-lived sphere of annihilation, a victim who is unaware of the sphere's appearance or unable to move is destroyed without a saving throw.

Iron Body

Level: 8    Wizard Spell
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This spell transforms the caster's body into living iron, the caster can only be injured by blunt weapons of +3 or better value, or 8th level monsters or higher. Slashing weapons, falling, crushing, and construction attacks of all types are completely unable to harm the caster. Spells or attacks that affect the subject's physiology or respiration fail completely. Spells that have weight limits should be applied to the wizard as if he weighed over 3,000 pounds. The wizard ignores electrical attacks and takes half damage vs. fire, save for 1/4.

Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.




This type of power is nice for the narrative but you have to think about how it plays out mechanically. What happens when your unstoppable force mets my immovable object? You end up with a whole lot of arbitrary and inconsistent rules like this antimagic shell destroys this sphere of annihilation in some games but not others.




That's not a problem. It should be different from game to game. Each fantasy milieu is different; each story is it's own canvas. Having the exact same effect happen the same way every time; rather than narratively telling the story is the main problem.
The minute you start designing an acting improv game for official rulings/judging etc. you start to lose that magical piece that makes it a role playing game.
I would argue that non numerical values, and ludicrous buzzy sounding values are able to maintain the magical feel. The Iron Body was mystical because it felt like your character turned into metal - they even weighed as much as metal, and in many cases, attacks would fail outright. Magical stuff does that - it breaks the rules and presents us with obstacles.

1000 damage is ridiculous, especially in a game where the gods had about 1000 or less. 1000 damage isn't supposed to scale, it's supposed to be insulting to your intelligence. We should want players and DMs to feel uncertain as to how far a high level spell can go in philosophical hypotheticals about unmovable objects and unstoppable forces. That's part of the mystique of D&D, and how you, as a DM end up ruling on it says a lot about you and your style of play.  Then there's the sphere of annihilation. If I told my old DM it did 20d6, he would have smacked me. "destroyed, no save" doesn't care what level you are, and it doesn't loose it's charm.

I have no idea how much damage "death/no save" does. It's like an old Fist of the Northstar Joke:

"how many hit points does your exploding head have?"

SoD level effects existed for Warriors in the AD&D High Level Campaigning Guide and in the Gladiator's Handbook, for those who want to know.
Options are Liberating
So apparently whenever I'm naming my theorethical 4E homebrew power I have to get the fluff aproved by the Commision of Awesome Things so that I don't insert more awesome into the fluff then what the crunch desserves !
I agree, spells need to be awesome, world breaking even, in epic. However, fighters need to be able to SoD a person by flexing their muscles, and a lot of people don't like that idea. Hell, YOU ARE GODS at epic level, or close. Does "realism" and veramiliwhatever need to come into play? Also, epic level is the best way to play, IMO. Heroic bores me to tears.



4e has that, though. And they can be used even by non-casters, to boot!

Rituals, where most of the funny spells of past editions are. I know that they get overlooked, but they are there for a reason! At high levels you can raise into the air a chunk of earth of several miles and command it at your will. If this isn't flashy, what it is?
Also, the Immortality rules states that at level 30 the character basically gets a free wish before exiting the game and can do something so big that alters forever the fate of the world, and his legacy (or his physical body) lives forever. This is kinda epic.

Sadly, the rest of the game does not follow, one of the themes of epic style is that no matter how powerful you are, fate can (and will) screw you over. When you think about Achilles you don't remember that he was invulnerable, you remember that he was killed by an arrow in the k heel. Greeks were big fans of the whole "You can't escape fate".
It really is all a matter of scale.  Part of the feel of 4e is that the PCs are head and shoulders above the common man.  You really should feel epic in your own tier, even if your tier isn't Epic.

A 1st level character wielding Split the Sky sounds a good bit more awesome than one wielding My Weapon Just Sneezed On Your Feet.
I agree, spells need to be awesome, world breaking even, in epic. However, fighters need to be able to SoD a person by flexing their muscles, and a lot of people don't like that idea. Hell, YOU ARE GODS at epic level, or close. Does "realism" and veramiliwhatever need to come into play? Also, epic level is the best way to play, IMO. Heroic bores me to tears.



4e has that, though. And they can be used even by non-casters, to boot!

Rituals, where most of the funny spells of past editions are. I know that they get overlooked, but they are there for a reason! At high levels you can raise into the air a chunk of earth of several miles and command it at your will. If this isn't flashy, what it is?
Also, the Immortality rules states that at level 30 the character basically gets a free wish before exiting the game and can do something so big that alters forever the fate of the world, and his legacy (or his physical body) lives forever. This is kinda epic.

Sadly, the rest of the game does not follow, one of the themes of epic style is that no matter how powerful you are, fate can (and will) screw you over. When you think about Achilles you don't remember that he was invulnerable, you remember that he was killed by an arrow in the k heel. Greeks were big fans of the whole "You can't escape fate".



Oh, don't get me wrong. 4e is by far the best edition, IMnot-so-humbleO. I just think that everyone needs some awesomeness, and the way to do that is to make the martial even better and earth shattering. You know Chuck Norris jokes? Martial characters should actually be able to power Australia for 43 minutes with a single sword swing.
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To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
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General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Head and shoulders above the common man, and yet only 6(X) weapon against the common monster when using some epically named power.

"I disintegrated your self esteem for 68 damage! You only have 562 HP left!"
If you want to understand the fluff conventions of 4e, reread Keep on the Shadowfell.

As for the powers you listed, no, many don't reach the height of AD&D shenanigans. They're also not limited to the die roll alone: rain of steel, for instance, becomes a nightmare when you add the static mods to it (even moreso when you can hold mobs adjacent to you). Likewise, the riders on some of those powers are far more important that a few extra dice. Banishment, for example, will win you the battle, when timed properly.

Keep in mind, 4e is far more dependent on synergy than its predecessors, both in terms of character design and party interaction, so many pieces, when viewed in a void, do not shine all that well (honestly though, if you've ever seen Blade Cascade used effectively, you wouldn't complain about it's performance).

And yes, as others have stated, the power bloat, coupled with the "go fluff yourself" mentality of the creative material does leave a great deal to be desired.

Personally, I'd rather not see a return to "well, this (spell/power/ability) completely circumvents the challenge, so nyah". As for whether they can make 5e flavorful and balanced, we'll see.

An

4e relies far more heavily
The Penitent Brothers of the Burnishing Sun - A Collection of Paladin builds The Goode Friends of Johnny - A Mischievous Rabble of Murderers and Scoundrels (soon to come)
"go fluff yourself"

That is sig worthy.


That's not a problem. It should be different from game to game. Each fantasy milieu is different; each story is it's own canvas. Having the exact same effect happen the same way every time; rather than narratively telling the story is the main problem.
The minute you start designing an acting improv game for official rulings/judging etc. you start to lose that magical piece that makes it a role playing game.


That is msot definitely a problem. The heart of a modular system is the assurance that your character is going to be able to do the same things regardless of where he's playing. When a character can break the world in half in one campaign, and then be completely useless in another, despite the two being identical save for the DM, down to the dice rolled, and the best answer the designers can give is "work it out yourself," you have a flawed game.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Please Allow AD&D the opportunity to show you how it's done...

Impervious Sanctity of Mind

Level: 7        Cleric Spell
Duration: 10 minutes per level
Game Effect: When using this spell, the priest renders his mind completely immune to any mind-affecting spell, power, or psionic effect.

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction

Level: 9      Wizard Spell
Range: over 90 yards
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This awful spell brings into existence a short-lived sphere of annihilation, a victim who is unaware of the sphere's appearance or unable to move is destroyed without a saving throw.

Iron Body

Level: 8    Wizard Spell
Duration: 1 minute per level
Game Effect: This spell transforms the caster's body into living iron, the caster can only be injured by blunt weapons of +3 or better value, or 8th level monsters or higher. Slashing weapons, falling, crushing, and construction attacks of all types are completely unable to harm the caster. Spells or attacks that affect the subject's physiology or respiration fail completely. Spells that have weight limits should be applied to the wizard as if he weighed over 3,000 pounds. The wizard ignores electrical attacks and takes half damage vs. fire, save for 1/4.

Resurrection

Level: 7    Cleric Spell
Game Effect: The priest is able to restore life and complete strength to any living creature, including elves. The creature can have been dead up to 10 years per level of the priest casting the spell. Thus a 19th level priest can ressurect the bones of a creature dead up to 190 years.

Control Weather

Level: 7    Druid Spell
Duration: 8-96 hours
Area of Effect: 8-32 square miles
Game Effect: The Control weather spell enables a priest to change the weather in the local area, e.g. he can cause precipitation to go from partly cloudy to heavy sleet, temperature to go from cool to arctic, and wind to go from strong to Hurricane-typhoon.

Creeping Doom
Level: 7   Druid Spell
Duration: 4 minutes per level
Game Effect: When the caster utters the spell of creeping doom, he calls forth a mass of 500-1000 venomous biting and stinging arachnids, insects, and myriapods in a 20 ft square, moving in the direction in which the caster commands. The creeping doom slays any creature subject to normal attacks, so that up to 1000 points of damage (each of the small horrors inflicts 1 point of damage) can be inflicted on creatures within the path.


... i'll spare you guys the other doom awaiting in spells such as Pierce any Shield, the drow Black Blade of Disaster, Polymorph Other, and the Wujen Wish. Unless you really want to know.


Note: This isn't about an edition war, it's about how spells and powers have been getting more dramatic yet undeserved titles, even at epic levels - and it's got to stop, or 5e characters will be laughing stocks.



Cool. What epic powers does the fighter get? 
AD&D Epic Fighters:

Lord
Level: 9    Fighter
Duration: Permanent
Game Effect: A fighter after building his barony, automatically attracts soldiers, who having heard of the fighter, come for the chance to gain fame, adventure and cash. They are loyal. Soldiers journey to his domain, thereby increasing his power. Furthermore, the fighter can tax and develop these lands gaining a steady income from them. In addition to regular men-at-arms, the fighter also attracts an elite body-guard, who have greater loyalty to their Lord than the common soldiers. Finally, the leader of the troops is also considered a leveled character with their own equipment and up to 4 magic items.


Death Blow
Level: 15  Fighter
Game Effect: This skill allows warriors to strike deadly blows that can fell an opponent in a single stroke. A death blow must be announced. If the attack hits, the opponent suffers normal damage from the blow and must save vs. death or be slain immediately (Opponents higher level than the Warrior are immune to the effect, so a 25th level Fighter could SoD a Great Wyrm).

Hardiness
Level: 15  Fighter
Game Effect: Warriors with this skill can use their inner strength to delay and later recover from the harmful effects of special attacks including blindness, deafness, ability score reduction, petrification, polymorph, instant death/SoD, magical aging, and energy drain or level loss, by making a skill check. If the check succeeds, no harmful effect takes place for a number of minutes dependent on level.
15-19: 5 minutes
20-24: 10 minutes
25-29: 15 minutes
30: half an hour
If the warrior recieves a cure for the given effect, or the effect's duration expires before the listed time above, then there is no further effect. If the effect is still in place after the listed duration, or has not been cured, the fighter lapses into unconsciousness while their body struggles to resist. The duration ranges depending on severity, from 1 day, for effects like blindness and disease, to 1 week for effects like SoD, to 1 month, for extreme effects like level drain. At the end the Fighter makes a system shock (90-95% chance of success) and either heals completely or takes the effect.

Captivate
Level: 15  Fighter
Game Effect: The character has Presence, even without a skill roll effecting children, members of the opposite sex, and other warriors of the same race and at least one part matching alignment, such as chaotic, neutral, or good.  With minimum encouragement NPCs give the warrior information, perform errands, make introductions, etc. The warrior is a celebrity in the eyes of creatures with less than 8 levels. The warrior is also able plant suggestions, save to negate.

Breech Immunity
Level: 21+   Fighter
Game Effect: The Fighter can strike as a magical weapon without one, hitting creatures requiring a +1 or better weapon to hit. This bonus increases again to +2 at 24th level, +3 at 27th level, and +4 at 30th level.

Magic Resistance
Level: 1+   Fighter
Game Effect: The fighter gains 2% magic resistance per level, so that at 10th level, they have 20% Immunity to Unwanted Magic, at 15th level 30%, at 20th level 40%, at 25th level 50%, and 60% at 30th level.


...
I don't think it's necessary to go into the Dark Sun Armies - a logical extension of the 9th level Barony, or the effects of Grand Mastery.
Options are Liberating
2e did have some pretty cool abilities. Grand mastery was absolutely awesome too, but I think you could get that by like level 12 or something.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
It really is all a matter of scale.  Part of the feel of 4e is that the PCs are head and shoulders above the common man.  You really should feel epic in your own tier, even if your tier isn't Epic.

A 1st level character wielding Split the Sky sounds a good bit more awesome than one wielding My Weapon Just Sneezed On Your Feet.



Im with you on this one that is for sure... but  I am a serious fan of the Wheel of Time Sword Forms and I am considering a project of creating them for 4e .... 
Wheel of Time Sword Forms



  • Boar Rushes Down the Mountain

  • Cat Crosses The Courtyard--a method of walking

  • The Creeper Embraces

  • The Courtier Taps His Fan

  • Dove Takes Flight

  • Eel Among The Lily Pads

  • Emptiness--another method of walking, each moment in perfect balance

  • The Falcon Stoops

  • Folding The Air

  • The Hummingbird Kisses The Honeyrose

  • Kingfisher Circles The Pond--defensive parry

  • Leaf On The Breeze

  • Leopard's Caress--a blow for the opponent's legs

  • Lightning of Three Prongs

  • The Lion Springs

  • Lizard In The Thornbush

  • The Moon Rises Over The Lakes

  • Parting The Silk--an attack aimed at the arms

  • Plucking The Low-Hanging Apple--a swift blow for the opponent's neck, intended to decapitate

  • Rain In High Wind

  • Reaping The Barley--a slashing attack aimed at the opponent's chest

  • The Red Hawk Takes A Dove

  • River of Light

  • Sheathe The Sword--killing one's opponent at the cost of one's own life

  • Stones Falling From The Cliff

  • The Swallow Takes Flight

  • Threading The Needle--a thrusting attack aimed at the opponent's shoulder

  • Two Hares Leaping

  • Unfolding the Fan

  • Whirlwind on the Mountain

  • The Wind Blows Over The Wall

  • The Wood Grouse Dances


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

It really is all a matter of scale.  Part of the feel of 4e is that the PCs are head and shoulders above the common man.  You really should feel epic in your own tier, even if your tier isn't Epic.

A 1st level character wielding Split the Sky sounds a good bit more awesome than one wielding My Weapon Just Sneezed On Your Feet.



Im with you on this one that is for sure... but  I am a serious fan of the Wheel of Time Sword Forms and I am considering a project of creating them for 4e .... 
Wheel of Time Sword Forms



  • Boar Rushes Down the Mountain

  • Cat Crosses The Courtyard--a method of walking

  • The Creeper Embraces

  • The Courtier Taps His Fan

  • Dove Takes Flight

  • Eel Among The Lily Pads

  • Emptiness--another method of walking, each moment in perfect balance

  • The Falcon Stoops

  • Folding The Air

  • The Hummingbird Kisses The Honeyrose

  • Kingfisher Circles The Pond--defensive parry

  • Leaf On The Breeze

  • Leopard's Caress--a blow for the opponent's legs

  • Lightning of Three Prongs

  • The Lion Springs

  • Lizard In The Thornbush

  • The Moon Rises Over The Lakes

  • Parting The Silk--an attack aimed at the arms

  • Plucking The Low-Hanging Apple--a swift blow for the opponent's neck, intended to decapitate

  • Rain In High Wind

  • Reaping The Barley--a slashing attack aimed at the opponent's chest

  • The Red Hawk Takes A Dove

  • River of Light

  • Sheathe The Sword--killing one's opponent at the cost of one's own life

  • Stones Falling From The Cliff

  • The Swallow Takes Flight

  • Threading The Needle--a thrusting attack aimed at the opponent's shoulder

  • Two Hares Leaping

  • Unfolding the Fan

  • Whirlwind on the Mountain

  • The Wind Blows Over The Wall

  • The Wood Grouse Dances





cat crosses the courtyard is actually a sword stance that is mostly for show and sword form displays. It is almost entirely useless in battle.  It more throws the enemies that know what they are doing off because they don't understand why your using the stance in combat. However while it lacks battle effectiveness it also makes you look cool and aloof if you remain in the stance and walk in front of people.  Totally a utility to increase diplomacy checks or charisma based checks so you can pair it with a bluff check in battle to get CA.

The emptiness was actually just the almost meditative state sword masters would attain when they took up the void.  It was the most basic building block of the sword master's training, all other things are possible because you can attain the void, attaining the void and the emptiness was also required for a male to use magic (for those that don't know in the wheel of time series men and women use magic differently).  Hence the reason why it was useful to make every single male magic user learn how to wield a sword.  I'll have to look through at the other ones to make sure of what they were I just remember those two because Rand, for a large portion of the books, is always in the void, and he constantly uses cat crosses the courtyard to impress people before he realizes his mere existence impresses people and even then he still does it sometimes to really drill it home that he is in charge.

If ya can't tell I've spent a lot of time reading this series.  I loved the 3.5 D20 system they came out with for it.  The GSL mostly pissed me off because I knew it meant that there would be 0 chance of a 4e version of the Wheel of Time TTRPG
It really is all a matter of scale.  Part of the feel of 4e is that the PCs are head and shoulders above the common man.  You really should feel epic in your own tier, even if your tier isn't Epic.

A 1st level character wielding Split the Sky sounds a good bit more awesome than one wielding My Weapon Just Sneezed On Your Feet.



Im with you on this one that is for sure... but  I am a serious fan of the Wheel of Time Sword Forms and I am considering a project of creating them for 4e .... 
Wheel of Time Sword Forms



  • Boar Rushes Down the Mountain

  • Cat Crosses The Courtyard--a method of walking

  • The Creeper Embraces

  • The Courtier Taps His Fan

  • Dove Takes Flight

  • Eel Among The Lily Pads

  • Emptiness--another method of walking, each moment in perfect balance

  • The Falcon Stoops

  • Folding The Air

  • The Hummingbird Kisses The Honeyrose

  • Kingfisher Circles The Pond--defensive parry

  • Leaf On The Breeze

  • Leopard's Caress--a blow for the opponent's legs

  • Lightning of Three Prongs

  • The Lion Springs

  • Lizard In The Thornbush

  • The Moon Rises Over The Lakes

  • Parting The Silk--an attack aimed at the arms

  • Plucking The Low-Hanging Apple--a swift blow for the opponent's neck, intended to decapitate

  • Rain In High Wind

  • Reaping The Barley--a slashing attack aimed at the opponent's chest

  • The Red Hawk Takes A Dove

  • River of Light

  • Sheathe The Sword--killing one's opponent at the cost of one's own life

  • Stones Falling From The Cliff

  • The Swallow Takes Flight

  • Threading The Needle--a thrusting attack aimed at the opponent's shoulder

  • Two Hares Leaping

  • Unfolding the Fan

  • Whirlwind on the Mountain

  • The Wind Blows Over The Wall

  • The Wood Grouse Dances





cat crosses the courtyard is actually a sword stance that is mostly for show and sword form displays. It is almost entirely useless in battle.  It more throws the enemies that know what they are doing off because they don't understand why your using the stance in combat. However while it lacks battle effectiveness it also makes you look cool and aloof if you remain in the stance and walk in front of people.  Totally a utility to increase diplomacy checks or charisma based checks so you can pair it with a bluff check in battle to get CA.

The emptiness was actually just the almost meditative state sword masters would attain when they took up the void.  It was the most basic building block of the sword master's training, all other things are possible because you can attain the void, attaining the void and the emptiness was also required for a male to use magic (for those that don't know in the wheel of time series men and women use magic differently).  Hence the reason why it was useful to make every single male magic user learn how to wield a sword.  I'll have to look through at the other ones to make sure of what they were I just remember those two because Rand, for a large portion of the books, is always in the void, and he constantly uses cat crosses the courtyard to impress people before he realizes his mere existence impresses people and even then he still does it sometimes to really drill it home that he is in charge.

If ya can't tell I've spent a lot of time reading this series.  I loved the 3.5 D20 system they came out with for it.  The GSL mostly pissed me off because I knew it meant that there would be 0 chance of a 4e version of the Wheel of Time TTRPG


I didnt get to play it. but  Wheel of Time, plus Slaine, and the 3.x Psionics handbook were my only purchases from that era. I really felt that OGL made Slaine very hard to read... ofcourse WoT wasnt burdened by constant reference to the phb.
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

It really is all a matter of scale.  Part of the feel of 4e is that the PCs are head and shoulders above the common man.  You really should feel epic in your own tier, even if your tier isn't Epic.

A 1st level character wielding Split the Sky sounds a good bit more awesome than one wielding My Weapon Just Sneezed On Your Feet.



Im with you on this one that is for sure... but  I am a serious fan of the Wheel of Time Sword Forms and I am considering a project of creating them for 4e .... 
Wheel of Time Sword Forms



  • Boar Rushes Down the Mountain

  • Cat Crosses The Courtyard--a method of walking

  • The Creeper Embraces

  • The Courtier Taps His Fan

  • Dove Takes Flight

  • Eel Among The Lily Pads

  • Emptiness--another method of walking, each moment in perfect balance

  • The Falcon Stoops

  • Folding The Air

  • The Hummingbird Kisses The Honeyrose

  • Kingfisher Circles The Pond--defensive parry

  • Leaf On The Breeze

  • Leopard's Caress--a blow for the opponent's legs

  • Lightning of Three Prongs

  • The Lion Springs

  • Lizard In The Thornbush

  • The Moon Rises Over The Lakes

  • Parting The Silk--an attack aimed at the arms

  • Plucking The Low-Hanging Apple--a swift blow for the opponent's neck, intended to decapitate

  • Rain In High Wind

  • Reaping The Barley--a slashing attack aimed at the opponent's chest

  • The Red Hawk Takes A Dove

  • River of Light

  • Sheathe The Sword--killing one's opponent at the cost of one's own life

  • Stones Falling From The Cliff

  • The Swallow Takes Flight

  • Threading The Needle--a thrusting attack aimed at the opponent's shoulder

  • Two Hares Leaping

  • Unfolding the Fan

  • Whirlwind on the Mountain

  • The Wind Blows Over The Wall

  • The Wood Grouse Dances





cat crosses the courtyard is actually a sword stance that is mostly for show and sword form displays. It is almost entirely useless in battle.  It more throws the enemies that know what they are doing off because they don't understand why your using the stance in combat. However while it lacks battle effectiveness it also makes you look cool and aloof if you remain in the stance and walk in front of people.  Totally a utility to increase diplomacy checks or charisma based checks so you can pair it with a bluff check in battle to get CA.

The emptiness was actually just the almost meditative state sword masters would attain when they took up the void.  It was the most basic building block of the sword master's training, all other things are possible because you can attain the void, attaining the void and the emptiness was also required for a male to use magic (for those that don't know in the wheel of time series men and women use magic differently).  Hence the reason why it was useful to make every single male magic user learn how to wield a sword.  I'll have to look through at the other ones to make sure of what they were I just remember those two because Rand, for a large portion of the books, is always in the void, and he constantly uses cat crosses the courtyard to impress people before he realizes his mere existence impresses people and even then he still does it sometimes to really drill it home that he is in charge.

If ya can't tell I've spent a lot of time reading this series.  I loved the 3.5 D20 system they came out with for it.  The GSL mostly pissed me off because I knew it meant that there would be 0 chance of a 4e version of the Wheel of Time TTRPG


I didnt get to play it. but  Wheel of Time, plus Slaine, and the 3.x Psionics handbook were my only purchases from that era. I really felt that OGL made Slaine very hard to read... ofcourse WoT wasnt burdened by constant reference to the phb.
 




yeah the WoT book didn't actually mesh with the core books of 3.5 to well.  It was more of it's own thing.  If you were going to be playing WoT adventures you could do it entirely out of that one book, and maybe take a few of the monsters from the MM and throw it in if you didn't mind breaking the WoT cannon.  You could play the WoT classes in DnD adventures but it added a level of complexity most people didn't want to deal with because this wasn't supposed to be a WoT adventure and some of the mechanics and classes were directly tied to the WoT books and setting.  Also a number o the classes were not properly balanced for normal DnD they were balance within the WoT RPG though.