Power gamer killing everythin...including the fun

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Been DMing for a good stretch of time and never had a problem with power gamers before. I seen it as an easy solution to just up the stakes and toss on harder problems to the group.

But the current group I am running a campaign for is a roll over from the noob encounters stock and wile they may not be anywhere close to greatly skilled players they are a good group of friends and hands down the funniest table I have ever run.

Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.


 


I can deal with that by the normal amping up of the creatures but this puts an unfair stress upon the other players but even worse it made the entire table feel like Superman was fighting along side the keystone cops.


 


Not that he was snooty about it; in fact he was a cool guy. My complaint is not about him it is about the effect on the others. I sat and watched every single one of the players I have been culling for months change into defeated bystanders. An hour into the game they all started talking about scraping their characters and trashing the sheaf’s of storyline on them to make more min/max ones. The “go with the flow” fun the group normally held so steadfast was changed into the dreaded yawn of stale time.


 


So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.


That’s what Lair assault is for dambit!  


 


 


 


  

Well firstly, its done. There's ways and means to control it but it might be a little too late.

Talk to the Players together, including the cool guy PowerGamer with them.
If they want to go all Min/Max, throw Min/Max Encounters at them.
Give the enemies weird immunities (especially say, to the Elementalist's attacks), interrupts similar to what the PCs would get, or special "custom" abilities that are more usually seen on Solos. There's a lot of inspiration to be had reading through the Class Powers from Level 1-10.
( Note : Fit the Enemies into 2 Roles, eg. Lurker / Controller or Soldier / Leader. But don't make everyone be able to do everything. Optionally, each should have 2 Encounter Powers to fit each role, and if both Powers are used, refresh one of them on 3+ or 4+. Auras and Specials are great too. Then if you wish to, up the Creature's Level some more! eg. Hyena - all Adjacent Enemies grant Combat Advantage to its Allies.)

At the same time, understand if the Players want to RP more or fight more. If its the latter, just hand it to them.
If its the former, focus on the story, and ask them to consider if they still want to Min/Max their chars.
If they agree they want to be more story-oriented, then request the Power Gamer to reduce his Min/Max.

On the flip side, I had a Power Gamer Friend who joined in a game for new people to support one of my early sessions (in fact my 2nd time DMing, and 1st time DMing in front of a bunch of strangers who had never played 4E before). He did a similar thing.
To deal with it, the next Session, I suggested he take up the role in the Party that no one wanted - Leader - and let others shine through.
After all, if only one Player is expert at CharOp, the best way to make him less limelight stealing is to have him CharOp for what is considered one of the least limelight-stealing party roles - Leader. After all, it fits the theme of an "Advanced" Player shepherding the n00bs through the fold. And come what may, if there's only one Leader, generally speaking the Party IS nice to the Leader.

Oh as a side note, taking Dragon Magazine ( and some new Books, even. I haven't read HoS or HoE) out of the Player Resources is a big big big big help.

I am Blue/White

Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.

This kind of thing drives me crazy too. If players are going to "solve" D&D like it's tic-tac-toe, why bother playing?

Well, for one thing, he got to pick and customize 5 levels worth of gear (or anyway three key items, and probably a few other cheap ones). If you can hold out for a little while, his gear will lose its shine and you do have some say over what he receives and when he receives it. Don't be punative, but don't get pushed over to give him what he believes he needs if you believe he's doing fine. Also, don't be totally passive about this, but go ahead and explain that you're watching all the characters and his needs less help than the others.

Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.

So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.

Two things: First of all, even if they do bring new characters, and the characters are min-maxed, this doesn't need to ruin the roleplaying. If nothing else, you can limit the introduction of new PCs to improved versions of the old ones. Second of all, min-maxing doesn't preclude and interesting character and good roleplaying.

Second of all, don't target the new guy out of spite, target him for utterly plausible in-game reasons. People will find out about how he wasted that boss, and the party's enemies will learn this. The elementalist should be their primary target every time. It's not spite, it's smart play. Be open about this, too. Make it clear in and out of game why he's going to have a harder time of it with the enemies. This doesn't need you have to kill him.

Which brings me to my other suggestions: This guy is good at killing. Ok. He's "solved" that. That means you need to take the focus off that a little and put it on to something else. TV shows have, I think, lots of good examples of how an awesome good guy is kept from using his awesomeness but some gambit the badguy has used. I'm not talking about actually turning off the awesome powers, but making the undesireable. For instance, the bad guy could have a dead-man switch that will cause havoc if he's killed, knocked out, or even stunned.

Which brings me to my other other suggestion: make encounters about something other than killing the badguys. Killing the badguys can be a major part of it, and can make things easier, but shouldn't be the way to win every encounter. Look at Star Wars: killing dozens of stormtroopers, or even all the stormtroopers on the Death Star would not, itself, have achieved the goal of getting everyone safely away. Killing Vader wouldn't have ensured that the Empire wouldn't be victorious. On the flipside, the Empire killed or captured every living person on the Princess's ship but they still failed in the point of that attack and overall.

So, throw the kitchen sink at the party. Make it so this guy has to be this good, but make it so that his skill is required for the others to be able to achieve what's really important about the encounter. You don't need to make them just errand boys, or anything; they can still have enemies to deal with, but it's okay if they're not as good at killing because even if they were it wouldn't necessarily help. I'm imagining the elementalist holding an intersection as guards pour in, while the others deal with the guardians and traps surrounding the idol they've been sent to recover.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage



Unless he spent an action point, and crit both attack, there's no way to achive 150 in 1 turn at level 5.  Especially as an elementalist.  They don't have dailies.

The best char-op came up with is 90 at level 6, and that requires a somewhat stupid enemy.

Double check his sheet.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm with Mello, here.

Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage



He's either cheating or he's misinterpreted the rules completely, depending on intent:  If he KNOWS he's breaking the rules, he's cheating.  If he doesn't know, he's misinterpreting.

Either way, that damage output is impossible.  Flat out, full-on impossible.  There is no legal way to do it.

So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.



Start with:  Post his sheet here, and how he thinks it works, because I guarantee he's breaking the rules.

Then:  Once you've corrected his rulebreaking, if he's still welcome in your game then you ask him to tone it way down.  Just ask him, flat out, to please de-optimise his character a bit.  Assuming that, after you correct the rulebreaking, he's still distractingly minmaxed.


Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.

Compliment him on his character crafting skills (even if he got the build from the charop board, he still implemented it). He has effectively won D&D on the 'normal' setting, and so has earned to right to move to 'hard'.

Allow him to run a much lower character than everyone else (since it's really the only way to preserve balance). This should be a compliment (*not* a punishment), and he certainly seems up to the challenge. It's kinda like a golfing handicap.

Compliment him on his character crafting skills (even if he got the build from the charop board, he still implemented it). He has effectively won D&D on the 'normal' setting, and so has earned to right to move to 'hard'.

Allow him to run a much lower character than everyone else (since it's really the only way to preserve balance). This should be a compliment (*not* a punishment), and he certainly seems up to the challenge. It's kinda like a golfing handicap.

Right you are.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.


So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.


That’s what Lair assault is for dambit! 




Let them rebuild their characters, without getting rid of the characters. Ask them to keep them close enough to the same that they are recognizably still the same person, but with a power upgrade.

Or, talk to the powergamer in the group, and see what he thinks once the issue is pointed out to him.

If possible, avoid asking him to de-optimize his character.

IMO, it would be better to ask someone to play a new character.

and of course, post the character here, with notes on how he thinks it works, so we can fix the rules problems.
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I am also with mellored on the check his math.  That 150 in one turn at level 5 is too big.  Way too big.

And if miraculously his PC is legal ask him to tone it down. If it isn't legal ask him to tone it down anyways and make sure it is legal.  DMs and players should all be on roughly the same page as far as charoping like this goes. 

At higher levels you can legally make PCs that do outshine each other by that much so he should still tone it down in the future.

I'd just ask him to reign it in. "Hey you are really good at optimizing, but the rest of the group isn't really there yet, do you mind reigning it in?"


You could also pose the challenge to him that it while pulling back, he might want to try a weird or unusual combination. Minotaur Wizard with int 16 or something like that. He can optimize to his hearts content, but he probably won't outshine too many people.


Also 150 damage seems high. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

And if miraculously his PC is legal ask him to tone it down. 

If it is legit, all the more reason to post it.

Time to play... "what is he doing wrong"...

Perhaps he's adding full score instead of mod to damage.

1d10+18+18+2+2+1 = 46.5.

And if he reads elemental escilation  (+5.5) as a double attack, and used an action point... (x3)

150.5...

Possibly?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Not to get of track, but I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and a partrige and a pear tree came to a truer number of about 135-140 in the round. Still possabile a cheat but I wont stress that yet. To me cheating in D&D is a stupid thing since your cheating yourself more then anyone else.

Not honestly woried on cheaters, you get one at the table every 6 monthes or so and thats when I get to put my evil bastard hat on. More to the point was the effect of a experianced palyer putting the smack down on the room of mobs, with a roll playing voice over, and not be the obnoxious "in your face you noobs" buthead about it.

In hindsite I didnt need to make this post I just needed to think about it for a day and not be dismayed by the sad look on the rest of the table because everything they did pailed by comparison.

That being the crux of the problem it is a obvious solution to pump them up and let them have the tast of serious battle they want. I agree with those that posted much the same thing. Regear and retune the lower players but keep the personas so they have the tools to be great and still have the loved backstorys.

Thanks to all that posted, good stuffs
Not to get of track, but I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and a partrige and a pear tree came to a truer number of about 135-140 in the round. Still possabile a cheat but I wont stress that yet. To me cheating in D&D is a stupid thing since your cheating yourself more then anyone else.



I'm not saying your player is cheating, but the damage is still clearly wrong. At 135-40 it is about 50 hit points of damage higher than the absolute max for his level.  This is a huge amount and should not be simply dismissed, you should find out were the mistake is and correct it or it will only grow over time.

In my experience players generally have no issues with correcting mistakes when they are pointed out.  It is very easy to miss calculate.  Interestingly enough it was at about 5th level when I noticed one player in my group was doing about 2x (or more) the damage as everyone else.  He was simply stacking to many bonus on his static damage and over using ranger's quarry.  We corrected the problem and everyone was happy.
the thing about the elementalist is that it's so simple and straightforward that it's pretty hard to take it too far out of its intended damage output, so once you fix the mistake that let him do more damage than is mathematically possible, he'll basically be in line with what a level 5 striker should be able to do.

if after the fix, he's still far outstripping the rest of the strikers then it's pretty obvious that their characters are more below average than the elementalist is above average. there's nothing wrong with suboptimal characters, but expect them to perform as such.
You claim you're not worried about cheaters, but this guy is potentially cheating, and if he is cheating, that cheating directly affected your group's enjoyment of the game, everybody's. By buffing his damage output into the ridiculous, he made all the other players feel worthless by comparison, and they were all ready to toss their characters in the meat grinder.

That's something you should be worried about. Verify the build. Inquiring minds demand satiation!

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

I also concur with the others who think that damage output is way too high.  So far out of line, in fact, that I don't know how you could get that number without cheating outright or laboring under the impression that arithmetic is a some kind of performance art.

Find out how he thinks he's getting that damage.  Ask him to explain it.  If he's cheating, you have a problem.  If he's just that honestly incorrect, use this as an opportunity to teach him some basic math so he doesn't get held back next year.  ;)

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

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"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

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I don't know how you could get that number without cheating outright

The OP has stated "I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and...".

Not to get of track, but I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and a partrige and a pear tree came to a truer number of about 135-140 in the round.


As you have to roll seperate attack rolls for each target: the crit would only affect one.

But yeah, if you have enemies bunched up, area attacks can do a ridiculous amount of total damage in a round. I could see him hitting 3 or maybe 4 creatures with the escalated attack, then 2-3 with the AP attack and the dragon breath. He'd still need to be increadibly lucky to get to 135-140, and he shouldn't have come anywhere near killing off your big bad in that single attack: maybe bloody it.

As for players avoiding the pitfalls of a single element-heavy build, I've become a fan of giving monsters abilities that key off of certain kinds of damage, in addition to or instead of straight resistances. I've even had fun combining them with vulnerabilities, for instance a golem with vulnerable 10 electricity that gains an electrifying aura when it takes lightning damage. Creates some interesting incentives during play, and does throw a wrench into the plans of optimizers without negating their optimization.
I don't know how you could get that number without cheating outright

The OP has stated "I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and...".




Which means he nova'd and got lucky on top of it, so there probably really isn't an issue (unless, as Crowscape states, he applied the crit to every target, which means rules were not followed).
Not to get of track, but I did not mean all 150 on same target. ignition crit with action point and escalation then dragon breath and a partrige and a pear tree came to a truer number of about 135-140 in the round.

As you have to roll seperate attack rolls for each target: the crit would only affect one.

But yeah, if you have enemies bunched up, area attacks can do a ridiculous amount of total damage in a round. I could see him hitting 3 or maybe 4 creatures with the escalated attack, then 2-3 with the AP attack and the dragon breath. He'd still need to be increadibly lucky to get to 135-140, and he shouldn't have come anywhere near killing off your big bad in that single attack: maybe bloody it.

+1.

135, even as a burst, requires some excelent positioning and quite a bit of luck.  (or some rules missunderstanding.  I would still check.  Dragonbreath does very little damage without serious, paragon level investment...).

But really, it's ok for him to have a big round like that every once in a while.  Just don't cluser up your eneies so much next time.  And give your BBEG an encounter interupt teleport.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.




Phaugh.  I think if you're going to have the villain say something to the party, you should prepare it to be deliverd both as an opening speech and a dying breath utterance, just in case they get the drop on him or attack before he can finish talking at them.  If the speech doesn't work as a dying breath utterance, consider the possibility that it was trite villain monologuing that needed to be interrupted with fire.  


If it's really that important, make the speaker a solo and have him say his peace during the bloodied phase.  
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.

Phaugh.  I think if you're going to have the villain say something to the party, you should prepare it to be deliverd both as an opening speech and a dying breath utterance, just in case they get the drop on him or attack before he can finish talking at them.  If the speech doesn't work as a dying breath utterance, consider the possibility that it was trite villain monologuing that needed to be interrupted with fire.

If it's really that important, make the speaker a solo and have him say his peace during the bloodied phase.  

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.



"Is your power an Immediate Interrupt with the trigger 'The bad guy is monologing'?  Then stuff it, he gets to finish his speech."

"Is your power an Immediate Interrupt with the trigger 'The bad guy is monologing'?  Then stuff it, he gets to finish his speech."


Villain's Monologue (charm)  Encounter
Attack: Close burst 30 (enemies within the burst); Level+3 vs. Will
Hit: Target creature is bored.

Yes, I have a power to interrupt :P
If your bosses have less than 100 hp (since you mentioned the damage was not all 1 to target) perhaps you need to make your bosses solos
Haveing never posted here before I did not expect so many off topic replys. So either its a horde of trolls or I truly presented my case with too much side junk. In the chance this was my fault I will right some misconceptions

#1 The "bad guy" was a toss away and the true villian not on the board. I wanted to deliver the a cocky brutish drama with accidently slipped clues in it when bloodied. The second he took the big hit I decided not to do it in the "last breath" mode or in the "1 hp= take me prisoner and make me talk" motife since both of those have been recently used. I instantly decided to go with the "scroll of orders from the boss with the information he didnt want the party to know" thingy. So I get my evil villian with stupid henchman story either way.

#2 Yes the damage may be a cheat, I will be honest and time was vaporizing fast and the store was soon to be closed so I did not dbl check every dice, power, backgroud, theme, fortuion card, and item pop that was rushed at me on that turn ("pile it on" was active and the entire table tossed thier works). Call me a bad DM but I decided that at that second things was going funky enough and to stop the game to call somebody on possable bullshit would even further sour things when the issue could easyly be addreased later away from the table. But yes as several noted you can bet your arse I will be spotting his rolls next week. Yes have talked with him about it in private. No I do not feel right posting his sheet

#3 The original issue is solved (I think) buy offering extra help rebuilding powers or item choices to those that wanted some of that high action.  Allso including that item that was rewarded awile ago actualy turning out to be a powerfull artifact, and as long as character keeps moral conordance (/giggle) then the bangs get bigger. Not only that but Mr FIRE! is to help them rebuild as several of the players are still playing the essential encounter pre-gens, just leveled up)

#4 Some at the table just have to learn to play the game a bit wiser. Some folks you can give a full wagon of munchken gear to and they will still end up doing half the job of that guy with the ranger halfling that only has 14 dex and is near sighted. I cant fix them they have to fix themselvs or accept thier roll as the "I am here mostly for the laughs" player.

#5 In any event thanks for the feedback. It is good to know I am not alone and there is a place I can have conversations with other regular DMs

Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.

Phaugh.  I think if you're going to have the villain say something to the party, you should prepare it to be deliverd both as an opening speech and a dying breath utterance, just in case they get the drop on him or attack before he can finish talking at them.  If the speech doesn't work as a dying breath utterance, consider the possibility that it was trite villain monologuing that needed to be interrupted with fire.

If it's really that important, make the speaker a solo and have him say his peace during the bloodied phase.  

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.



Me: "Finnan (my character) doens't give a damn what the Sharran scum has to say. He whips his chain at his face, ready to kill. Can I roll iniviative now? "


DM: "Seriously? You want to just interrupt him midspeech?"

Me: "Do you really see Finnan sitting through it?"

DM: "OK, do you say anything?"

Me: "Of course not. I just try to kill him."

DM: "Roll initiative."


If the first DM response was simply "No.", he would probably be a crap DM.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I don't think it's a crappy move on the part of the DM to do that. It's called a cut-scene. I've had DMs do it all the time. Make it dramatically tense and attention-grabbing enough and the players will forget their characters for a few seconds and be drawn into the "cinematic."

"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006

Dilige, et quod vis fac

If your PCs are trying to cut off your monologue, that means they don't care about what he is saying. Have him say more interesting, or important things. Maybe you should write them shorter? Either way your players clearly don't care about what you are saying and would like you to move on.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

If your PCs are trying to cut off your monologue, that means they don't care about what he is saying. Have him say more interesting, or important things. Maybe you should write them shorter? Either way your players clearly don't care about what you are saying and would like you to move on.




Actually, ONE player doesn't care what you're saying and wants you to move on.  You don't know what the others think.

(This is what's commonly referred to as "veto power" in game dynamics - the player who's willing to interrupt, to do the crazy thing, to start combat, etc has "veto power" over everyone else's actions.  It doesn't matter HOW HARD you worked to get into the king's audience chambers and make your point with words, as soon as one player draws his sword and attacks he's made everyone else's actions meaningless - and he's put the rest of the PCs into the position of either going along with him, or of *them* being the ones to break the party.


Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.

Phaugh.  I think if you're going to have the villain say something to the party, you should prepare it to be deliverd both as an opening speech and a dying breath utterance, just in case they get the drop on him or attack before he can finish talking at them.  If the speech doesn't work as a dying breath utterance, consider the possibility that it was trite villain monologuing that needed to be interrupted with fire.

If it's really that important, make the speaker a solo and have him say his peace during the bloodied phase.  

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.



Me: "Finnan (my character) doens't give a damn what the Sharran scum has to say. He whips his chain at his face, ready to kill. Can I roll iniviative now? "


DM: "Seriously? You want to just interrupt him midspeech?"

Me: "Do you really see Finnan sitting through it?"

DM: "OK, do you say anything?"

Me: "Of course not. I just try to kill him."

DM: "Roll initiative."


If the first DM response was simply "No.", he would probably be a crap DM.

In any case, you appear to agree with me that it's the DM's decision.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Actually, ONE player doesn't care what you're saying and wants you to move on.  You don't know what the others think.



Mine was a general statement not in regards to any specific story. I used plural to indicate "If more than one, or most of your players". If I am replying to a specific post I try to quote something or indicate it in some way. I can see that I may have been unclear though.

If one player does this it can simply be a disruption. If it happens with lots of players regulalrly its a sign. If it happens with one player, and the others seem ok with it, it can also be a sign that you have meek players and one willing to be vocal.

The ideal "mature reasoned" response is to say "dude your monologues are long and tedius, wrap them up", but people don't always use that. The "mature reasoned" DM response to being cut off should be to inquire with the group "Do you guys want me to cut them shorter from now on, or should I work to make them more interesting or something". Take it as an opportunity to open a dialogue and improve your game, not as an insult.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

I agree with Krusk.

I have been guilty of long winded speaches and or break sequances with a bit too much railroad. And sometimes the players dig it anad some players dont and it's the DMs job to see the flow of the moment. Rolled eyes and side conversations are big hints, or even worse players leaving to go see what's happening at the warhammer table, or playing with cell phones.
Yea time to change the song and let your story hit the trash can. Roll init and get creative on other ways to steer the flow.

On the flip side sometimes you get the butthead that just likes to cause trouble, ones that start fights with every NPC, brawls in every bar, slaughters every possable prisoner, attacks everything hat moves without thought.  Feeling the pulse of the players is tricky there as sometimes they make things right themselvs as a RP issue and sometimes you just have to act supprised when things "go bad" for that charater especiaily if you think he is going to cause trouble even if he played a skald.

One of the problems I have with the newer mindset of D&D is the single serving mentality of the game and its players. So many come in to play the two hours a week with cut and dry rule sets and "from the book" DMs that when they get into real campaigns they need to relearn alot of the game.

Same is to be said to me I need to learn to tone down the immershion of the game and not make it a second life enforced on the players. Folks have jobs and kids (as do I) that come first.

To me being a DM is first and formost the guy whom's job it is to keep focus on the games number one goal and that is to have fun. I may not know every book or stat or item produced but I do know to read the players and keep them busy with what interest them.

So the topic of dealing with inturpted diaglog IMHO falls under the snap descision of a DM to decide if its a group feel, a butthead, or the DM overdoing it.  All three result in the same answer of "ok, roll them bones" it's how you deal with it afterward thats going to make it a positive or negative effect.
Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.

Phaugh.  I think if you're going to have the villain say something to the party, you should prepare it to be deliverd both as an opening speech and a dying breath utterance, just in case they get the drop on him or attack before he can finish talking at them.  If the speech doesn't work as a dying breath utterance, consider the possibility that it was trite villain monologuing that needed to be interrupted with fire.

If it's really that important, make the speaker a solo and have him say his peace during the bloodied phase.  

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.



Me: "Finnan (my character) doens't give a damn what the Sharran scum has to say. He whips his chain at his face, ready to kill. Can I roll iniviative now? "


DM: "Seriously? You want to just interrupt him midspeech?"

Me: "Do you really see Finnan sitting through it?"

DM: "OK, do you say anything?"

Me: "Of course not. I just try to kill him."

DM: "Roll initiative."


If the first DM response was simply "No.", he would probably be a crap DM.

In any case, you appear to agree with me that it's the DM's decision.




Well, no. A PC's actions are the decision of the player. Which is a large part of why that DM would be crap.

Now, as a DM, I might ask the player  who wants to just shoot the BBEG right now, not listen to his lame speech (sometimes, from the character's perspective, the speech is lame even if it's actually awesome/important to the plot. the character isn't worried about the plot, or the finer points of his enemy's rhetorical skill.) to hold off for a second, perhaps have his character have an instinctive feeling that he or she should hear this to it's end, as it were. But if the player told me that he or she really could not imagine his character even listening to such a feeling...the PC's actions are the decision of the player.

Period. End of discussion.

As friends, we can stop for a second, go out of character, and talk about moving the story along rather than staying perfectly in character, etc, but I'm not within my rights, as DM, to decide for the players what their characters do, anymore than they are within their rights to tell me what my NPCs do.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
but I'm not within my rights, as DM, to decide for the players what their characters do, anymore than they are within their rights to tell me what my NPCs do.



Sounds like a trust issue. My players are welcome to create NPCs out of thin air or help guide the actions or personalities of NPCs in the game. Or come up with new stories and threads wholesale for me to introduce and flesh out. And I'm allowed to take the occasional liberty with their PCs as well if it helps round out the story. All parties work with an eye toward making things awesome.

The DM is a player and the players are also storytellers.

No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues.
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Content I Created: Adventure Scenarios  |  Actual Play Reports  |  Tools

Follow me on Twitter: @is3rith

Well, no. A PC's actions are the decision of the player. Which is a large part of why that DM would be crap.

Alright. The attack goes off. I still determine its exact timing and the effect on my NPC.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

monologues are best delivered as ghostly voices that talk to the PCs as they're moving to meet the BBEG...

or as dying declarations.  "what? you chopped off his head? well, aren't you just that much more surprised when his severed head's eyes open up gliwing red, and a creepy otherwordly voice issues from its mouth and says 'stuff is gonna happen, beware!'"

Or in between multi-stage encounters....say the BBEG teleports or runs away at some point and you hear his voice echoing down the hallway, goading you on or cursing your persistence.   
I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.

No, no, no, no, no.  Absolutely 100% not.  If the player really wants to make an attack, its not your call to just say "No".  

The only difference between the players and a GM is that the GM controls multiple characters, and has immediate control over Non-player encounters only.  Nowhere in the Rules Compendium does it say "GM's can control a player's character during monologues".  GM's who believe so need to contemplate on the size of their egos.

Many GM's become just as power hungry as players who want to optimize, and control parts of the game they have no right to control.  You may control the history of the world, but you do not control the actions of the players.  As such, if a player wants to make an attack to interrupt an enemy's speech, they are well within their right.  Just make sure the player understands what they're doing before they follow through with the action.

How often do heroes sit back and listen to an entire monologue?  Almost never, unless they're restrained; if anything, villains have to keep monologing during combat, because heroes just don't care.  Anyway, if a villain can't hold off a group of heroes for long enough to finish their speech, they don't deserve to give one.

That said, we each come to the game for our own reasons.  If speeches are really important to you, and you enjoy a good monologue from a villain, just ask the players to chill while your npc's are making speeches.  If one of your players really loves interrupting speeches, then find balance:  let them interrupt half of the speeches, and ask him to chill for the really epic ones.



As for the optimized player:  you can give the other players access to optimization forum, or you can (ask him to) de-optimize his character.  I usually go with the former; players love getting free stuff, and absolutely hate losing stuff they're already got.  Its not too big a deal to optimize other characters and increasing the power of all monsters and encounters.
No, no, no, no, no.  Absolutely 100% not.  If the player really wants to make an attack, its not your call to just say "No".  

The only difference between the players and a GM is that the GM controls multiple characters, and has immediate control over Non-player encounters only.  Nowhere in the Rules Compendium does it say "GM's can control a player's character during monologues".  GM's who believe so need to contemplate on the size of their egos.

Many GM's become just as power hungry as players who want to optimize, and control parts of the game they have no right to control.  You may control the history of the world, but you do not control the actions of the players.  As such, if a player wants to make an attack to interrupt an enemy's speech, they are well within their right.  Just make sure the player understands what they're doing before they follow through with the action.

How often do heroes sit back and listen to an entire monologue?  Almost never, unless they're restrained; if anything, villains have to keep monologing during combat, because heroes just don't care.  Anyway, if a villain can't hold off a group of heroes for long enough to finish their speech, they don't deserve to give one.

That said, we each come to the game for our own reasons.  If speeches are really important to you, and you enjoy a good monologue from a villain, just ask the players to chill while your npc's are making speeches.  If one of your players really loves interrupting speeches, then find balance:  let them interrupt half of the speeches, and ask him to chill for the really epic ones.



"You want to attack? No problem. Roll initiative. Okay, I win and make my speech. You're on deck." The speech has no mechanical effect. I'm not telling the character "No." It's outside of the rules of engagement and in the realm of story which the DM has control over, even total control if you want to play it that way. (I don't.)

Not that any of my players would be so rude as to interrupt a good monologue from a villain in the first place. I wouldn't interrupt the party's cleric or bard when he or she did the same. It's a racial feature called, "Don't Be a Jerk," and everyone at the table has access to it even the DM. One hopes everyone takes full advantage of it.

No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues.
DMs: Dungeon Master 101  |  Find Your GM Style  |  Structure First, Story Last  |  No Myth Roleplaying  |  5e Monster Index & Encounter Calculator
Players: 11 Ways to Be a Better Roleplayer  |  You Are Not Your Character  |  Pre-Gen D&D 5e PCs

Content I Created: Adventure Scenarios  |  Actual Play Reports  |  Tools

Follow me on Twitter: @is3rith

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.

No, no, no, no, no.  Absolutely 100% not.  If the player really wants to make an attack, its not your call to just say "No".

That's not what I'm talking about. He can make the attack, but the DM decides the exact timing and the effect on the NPC. Those are definitely things the DM contols, though hopefully not with an oppressively heavy hand. Allowing an NPC to finish a monologue is a pretty benign usage of that control.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

I decide when their attacks go off. They can say they're interrupting him, but that doesn't mean they get to.

No, no, no, no, no.  Absolutely 100% not.  If the player really wants to make an attack, its not your call to just say "No".

That's not what I'm talking about. He can make the attack, but the DM decides the exact timing and the effect on the NPC. Those are definitely things the DM contols, though hopefully not with an oppressively heavy hand. Allowing an NPC to finish a monologue is a pretty benign usage of that control.


Not to mention that combat doesn't force the NPC to shut up. If it's an important enough NPC it should survive long enough to have it's say during combat. If not, then odds are the monologue was perhaps a bit self-indulgent and should be edited down a bit.
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