I'm worried about 5th edition

I fear the designers are biting off more than they can chew. They are trying to make a D&D edition that essentially replicates any previous edition. While modular content will allow players to decide how they want to play it makes it so there is no "core" game. I felt that each new editiion up until now has been progress toward perfecting D&D. 4e some parts of 3rd edition but it made up for it by making the game more fun and balanced all around. I really enjoy 4th edition and remian skeptical of 5e. Thoughts?

I’m going to start my response with a seemingly off topic bit.


I think the worst thing about these forums is all the edition warring and bashing that goes on.


If 5E actually can be made into any edition then maybe that can stop.


I think no “core” could be a good thing. We’d all be playing the same game that is actively supported and new material would be coming out for our own preferences. That way no one would feel threatened or insulted and no one could be told they weren’t playing “real” D&D.


That’s if they can pull it off. And also assuming edition bashing won’t be replaced with module bashing.


Those are some big ifs but I’m hopeful.

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There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

I'm not so sure they're perfecting the game at this point. After the failure of 3.x at maintaining a coherent game system and 4e's excessively strict GSL, I think WotC is just trying to reclaim what fanbase it can.

Unfortunately, 5e isn't going to do much as long as everything's under a tight NDA. The most anyone's heard for sure about the game is something to the effect of, "Its going to rock!" Which means nothing to be, because someone I know also told me that four- way cage match between Jesus, Godzilla, Hulk Hogan, and Stone Cold Steve Austin rocked- and my reaction was to say, "How the hell do you explain having all that in a fantasy game?" All we have is four sub-forums dedicated to wild mass guessing. 
Although having no core would be best, I'm not really sure there will be no core.   With some of the statements that Mearls had made, I think he is trying to create new rules to please everyone.  His new ideas on Save or Die are a great example. Rather than accept the fact some people love save or die and others hate it he has been trying to design a bunch of new SoD rules that please everyone.

You just can't do that, 5e must be modular and it must not favour one style of play over the other.  All styles of play must be presented equally.    



That's what they're for?

I've been stealing ideas from them left and right for my own homebrew system in case 5e sucks. 
That's what they're for?

I've been stealing ideas from them left and right for my own homebrew system in case 5e sucks. 


Ditto. I've got it all in my head, just haven't started writing it yet. I knew there was a reason why I hadn't disposed of those old 3.5 rulebooks.
That's what they're for?

I've been stealing ideas from them left and right for my own homebrew system in case 5e sucks. 


Ditto. I've got it all in my head, just haven't started writing it yet. I knew there was a reason why I hadn't disposed of those old 3.5 rulebooks.




Why make your own system if you have an edition of choice? Just play that. 

Edit: not saying you shouldn't, but don't do it in case 5e sucks.

As for the core. There should be new rules that are core. This is a new version of the game, that could borrow cool ideas from the other editions. 



For me 4e was a horizontal move.  Some things were big improvements while others were disasterously bad.  I'm not edition warring just stating my own assessment based on how fun the game was for me and my group.  Sadly, the bad things outweighed the good and my group quit 4e.  So I am hoping the good from 4e along with the good in 3e can make a better 5e.  (and that goes for 1e/2e too!)

I really am someone who thinks no edition is perfect or lacks flaws.  I often end up defending against the "4e is near perfection" crowd because 4e is the latest version so of course thats what I'll see here.  If I were complaining during 3e I'd be viewed differently, as someone who definitely wants changes and improvements in that edition.  

If I were told I had to pick 1e,2e,3e, or 4e to play without change then I'd reluctantly pick 3e.  If instead though I was given another option (houserule your own edition out of the other editions), I'd seriously consider that option if there was not going to be a 5e.   I am hoping 5e fixes enough things that it will be an easier houserule than the other options.

 
Who said I was really happy about 3.x ? Its just I can use it more easily to write a game of my own (in the same vein as what Paizo did with Pathfinder- and got case law to back it up) than I can wth 4e.
One of the things that's bothering me about all of the official discussions of 5E is that there's essentially no new material being developed.

In constrast, with both 3E and 4E I saw the designers come up with new game mechanics and new ways of organizing the game, and in both cases I think the additions improved each edition. Where's the new content in 5E?
One of the things that's bothering me about all of the official discussions of 5E is that there's essentially no new material being developed.

In constrast, with both 3E and 4E I saw the designers come up with new game mechanics and new ways of organizing the game, and in both cases I think the additions improved each edition. Where's the new content in 5E?

We're not likely to see anything unless someone massively breaches an NDA. WotC is playing everything way too close to their chest. All we have to work on right now is wild mass guessing.
5e called and said it is worried about you too.

 Any Edition

D&D players have always had the option to "homerule" their own system and 5e certainly won't eliminate that possibility. I think that what they are trying to do in 5e is to allow players to play at their preferred level of complexity and focus (i.e. storytelling vs. precise tactical combat). I agree that the various editions of D&D present an "evolution" and that all have their own strengths and weaknesses. I just finished going over the 3.5e DMG1 last night and was taken aback by how complicated it was and how they had rules for things that I wouldn't even include in the game as "flavor" (story), let alone try to resolve in a mechanistic way. This is just the initial rulebook!

I think the real question is "How much should flavor be a storytelling issue, and how much needs to be dealt with mechanically (i.e. with a rule or a dice roll?). If you decide that everything has to have a mechanic, then there is no upper limit on the number of rules, or the level of complexity. If you decide that many things are better dealt with in a storytelling sense, then the rules and complexity become more manageable. I favor an approach that makes most things in D&D a storytelling issue.

I suspect that the "edition wars" aren't just an extension of the "my car is cooler than yours" disputes but is a genuine disagreement about playstyles. Also, since only one edition is officially supported at a time, players can resent that the current edition isn't their fit. I suspect what they are trying to do with 5e's modular approach is to make a way to accomodate and support different playstyles at the same time. I see this as a good thing.
One of the things that's bothering me about all of the official discussions of 5E is that there's essentially no new material being developed.

In constrast, with both 3E and 4E I saw the designers come up with new game mechanics and new ways of organizing the game, and in both cases I think the additions improved each edition. Where's the new content in 5E?



base from some info we got.

5e has some new content and different from any edition.

-skill list you can learn depend on theme instead of class.(theme is core,now)
-skill check base on stat instead of skill, skill just give a small bonus to that check.
-auto-success in skill check if your stat is high enough (want to kick door open? how much str you have? 17? go ahead big man, no need to roll)

maybe there are more but this is all I can remember.

Although having no core would be best, I'm not really sure there will be no core.   With some of the statements that Mearls had made, I think he is trying to create new rules to please everyone.  His new ideas on Save or Die are a great example. Rather than accept the fact some people love save or die and others hate it he has been trying to design a bunch of new SoD rules that please everyone.

You just can't do that, 5e must be modular and it must not favour one style of play over the other.  All styles of play must be presented equally.    





I just don't think you can pleasae everyone. And the modular approach worries me because I fear certain playstles will be supported less than others. I'm not giving up hope, I'm merely skeptical until we have more concrete information.
One of the things that's bothering me about all of the official discussions of 5E is that there's essentially no new material being developed.

In constrast, with both 3E and 4E I saw the designers come up with new game mechanics and new ways of organizing the game, and in both cases I think the additions improved each edition. Where's the new content in 5E?



base from some info we got.

5e has some new content and different from any edition.

-skill list you can learn depend on theme instead of class.(theme is core,now)
-skill check base on stat instead of skill, skill just give a small bonus to that check.
-auto-success in skill check if your stat is high enough (want to kick door open? how much str you have? 17? go ahead big man, no need to roll)

maybe there are more but this is all I can remember.


This is pretty much what I was getting at, though: those items above more or less appear already in 4E already. Skill checks are already stat checks with skill training providing a bonus; taking 10 already provides automatic success on some checks; themes already appear in 4E.

I would like to see truly new rules content like the invention of feats for 3E, surge-based healing in 4E, etc.

(Not that I'm saying there isn't such new content, but that's what I want to hear about, and it's been lacking thus far.)
base from some info we got.

5e has some new content and different from any edition.

-skill list you can learn depend on theme instead of class.(theme is core,now)
-skill check base on stat instead of skill, skill just give a small bonus to that check.
-auto-success in skill check if your stat is high enough (want to kick door open? how much str you have? 17? go ahead big man, no need to roll)

maybe there are more but this is all I can remember.

Source please.
base from some info we got.

5e has some new content and different from any edition.

-skill list you can learn depend on theme instead of class.(theme is core,now)
-skill check base on stat instead of skill, skill just give a small bonus to that check.
-auto-success in skill check if your stat is high enough (want to kick door open? how much str you have? 17? go ahead big man, no need to roll)

maybe there are more but this is all I can remember.

Source please.


D&DXP public seminars.  Should be a link somewhere to transcripts here or on Enworld.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
One of the things that's bothering me about all of the official discussions of 5E is that there's essentially no new material being developed.

In constrast, with both 3E and 4E I saw the designers come up with new game mechanics and new ways of organizing the game, and in both cases I think the additions improved each edition. Where's the new content in 5E?



I agree. Time will tell if something groundbreaking is planned. I am not impressed with what I've read so far with 5E and I still feel strongly that it is being released WAY too soon.
I am not worried at all about 5e and here's why.

I still have 4e stuff to play  when i am in the mood for that type of game (I like 4e when I want to play a tactical miniatures game, that is my opinion and I think the game is fun for me when I want that style of play)

I still have more PFRPG stuff to play until I am old and gray. Each adventure path takes a loooong time to slog through.

I still have a bunch of 2e stuff that can still be run.

Myths & Magic is another system coming out that I will be buying, so there's that too.

Overall, I think 5e will be fun, and if it tickles my D&D bone I will probably play it to the exclusion of all else for a good long time. If not, I will probably rotate it through now and again, but not spend money on it that I can be spending on other things.
I am not worried at all about 5e and here's why.

I still have 4e stuff to play  when i am in the mood for that type of game (I like 4e when I want to play a tactical miniatures game, that is my opinion and I think the game is fun for me when I want that style of play)

I still have more PFRPG stuff to play until I am old and gray. Each adventure path takes a loooong time to slog through.

I still have a bunch of 2e stuff that can still be run.

Myths & Magic is another system coming out that I will be buying, so there's that too.

Overall, I think 5e will be fun, and if it tickles my D&D bone I will probably play it to the exclusion of all else for a good long time. If not, I will probably rotate it through now and again, but not spend money on it that I can be spending on other things.



I started on 3.X and loved the game. I switched to 4E and loved that game. I haven't gone back to 3.X because 4E made the game so much easier to pick up and play. I do think that there is some undefinable quality missing from 4E but I'm willing to take the loss because of how easy it is to make characters, and plan content as a DM. I also feel like Wizards switched tack midway through 4E and abandoned it in favor of the essentials.
I'm interested in 5e, not worried. 

I'll playtest 5e.  And odds are I'll try the finished product.
If 5e turns out great?  Then I've got one more game to play.
If it turns out to be a pile of suck or something?  Then I'll just keep playing the game systems that I already enjoy....
In the end?  WoTC needs my $ & interest more than I need their latest effort.
I agree. Time will tell if something groundbreaking is planned. I am not impressed with what I've read so far with 5E and I still feel strongly that it is being released WAY too soon.



I don't need anything "groundbreaking"--I just want the game to support the playstyle that my group and I prefer, and I want it to do so better and more smoothly than previous editions.
Don't you worry about 5th edition. Let me worry about blank.

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I don't get it.
Don't you worry about 5th edition. Let me worry about blank.


Lol, Futurama.

You feel that way, but many do not, which is one reason why so many stopped buying/playing. That's the whole reason to have this edition be modular...so each group can have a game they like.



People stopped buying/playing because electronic gaming and now online gaming has become the norm.  DnD has become a niche hobby.  It's sad, but I truely believe DnD has started it's death spiral.  WotC is in the impossible situation of needing to retain the 'old guard' but still come up with something new and exciting to attract new players to its ranks.  

I'd be curious of what the average age of a DnD gamer is these days...


I share your fear about there being no (or very little) core. I just don't see any other option if they want to bring more than one group of players to buy the books. Every bit of core beyond the bare minimums (fantasy rpg, 6 attributes, use various dice, etc) is going to alienate some players. The only way that's worth it is if you guarantee bringing in that many or more because of the core inclusion, and that's nearly impossible to judge.



Quite frankly I think this module business has gotten out of hand.  I'm done reading Qo3 for a while.  No actual updates are forth coming, just promise after promise.  You want themes? Module.  You want save-or-die? Module?  You want AEDU or vancian? Module.  You want complex or simple?  Module.  You want more deadly or less deadly?  Module.  Quadratic wizard or linear fighter?  Well, we're not sure yet, but I've got a feeling we could do this as a Module.  

And then comes my favourite promise: these modules are completely miscible with one another.  

It's gotten absolutely rediculous.  If you try to please everyone you are going to end up pleasing no one.  

"Do androids dream?" Rick asked himself.
I share everyone's concern about the endless modules and how trying to please everyone will lead to pleasing no one.

I am curious though if they could actually pull it off.  I have gathered from people's posts that Essentials did a good job of offering different mechanics for classes that were fairly well balanced (if less complex) with the PHB classes.  I stopped playing 4th edition before Essentials so I can't speak to that.  Perhaps those with more experience with Essentials can share their thoughts.

But, if Essentials was successfully balanced with non Essentials in the same system, then it implies that they can indeed create a modular system that will work.

Just a thought to calm our nervous hearts.     

You feel that way, but many do not, which is one reason why so many stopped buying/playing. That's the whole reason to have this edition be modular...so each group can have a game they like.



People stopped buying/playing because electronic gaming and now online gaming has become the norm.  DnD has become a niche hobby.  It's sad, but I truely believe DnD has started it's death spiral.  WotC is in the impossible situation of needing to retain the 'old guard' but still come up with something new and exciting to attract new players to its ranks.  

I'd be curious of what the average age of a DnD gamer is these days...



Indeed, this is important.  The less the game appeals to the younger set, the greater a chance that it will languish or dissipate.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
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69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
I'm with kaamoku. I think they can break into down into 3 or 4 levels of complexity/playstyle. Players could take a few "elements" from different playstyles if the wanted. I guess I don't see why this should be considered hard.
Given that 90% of the blogs are targeting exactly what I want, I'm pretty excited about 5e.