Do Fey Beast Companions count as Beast Companions?

33 posts / 0 new
Last post
The benefits of the Beast Mastery ranger fighting style are limited to use on "your beast companion", while the companion granted by the Fey Beast Tamer theme is described as a "Fey Beast Companion".

Would it make sense, then, to be able to use Beast Mastery abilities through your Fey Beast Companion?
No because a Fey Beast Companion and a Beast Companion are not the same game elements even if they bear some similarities in name and application. One is a specific Companion Character granted by a the Fey Beast Tamer Theme Feature and the other a specific Companion Character granted by a Ranger Beast Mastery Class Feature. They respond to different prerequisits.

The Feat Bestial Mobility or Sturdy Beast has no effect on a Fey Beast Companion for exemple.
I can't agree with that interpretation.

Why would companion characters granted by a theme differ from those granted by a feature, when other elements, such as powers, do not differ unless otherwise specified? Is there a written rule somewhere that defines this difference?

Can you cite any of these prerequisites?

Both Beastial Mobility and Sturdy Beast only specify "your beast companion". It does not say "your non-fey beast companion" or "your ranger feature beast companion" or anything else to that effect.
The two things have different names.  Being different means they're not the same. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The two things have different names.  Being different means they're not the same. 



Right, so chocolate ice-cream is not ice-cream.

Do better.
The two things have different names.  Being different means they're not the same. 



Right, so chocolate ice-cream is not ice-cream.

Do better.



More like chocolate ice cream is not vanilla ice cream, given that it would officially be Ranger Beast Companion vs Fey Beast Companion, and not Beast Companion vs Fey Beast Companion.
Again, please feel free to cite anything that specifies a ranger beast companion and not your beast companion.
Again, please feel free to cite anything that specifies a ranger beast companion and not your beast companion.



Have yet to find anything yet, but I would like to note this:

From Beast Mastery:

"You can only have only one beast companion at a time. You can dismiss your beast companion at any time, but gaining a new one isn't a simple task. The link between a ranger and his or her beast companion is not one of master and servant but of two close friends."

If your fey beast companion counts as a beast companion (which I believe you are asserting), then your character cannot have both the fey beast companion and the ranger beast companion, by the rules. If the fey beast companion doesn't counts as a beast companion for that line, then it doesn't count as one for Beast Mastery powers or feats.
Yeah, I saw that but I don't think it precludes anything. A ranger could simply dismiss the second companion from the beast mastery feature (per the second sentence) and only have the one (fey) beast companion.
I have a feeling the OP is going to dismiss this out of hand, but I must say it anyway: just because two game elements have a similar name --or even the same name-- does not mean they are the same thing.

q.v. Vexing flanker and vexing flanker, or Ranger (Hunter) and Hunter Ranger.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

I have a feeling the OP is going to dismiss this out of hand,



Correct and here's why:

Vexing Flanker and Vexing Flanker are a feat and a power.
Ranger (Hunter) and Hunter Ranger are a class and a suggested build.

Fey Beast Companion and Beast Companion are both companion characters. Not only do they share a similar name, they share the same category.

The fact that one is granted by a theme and one is granted by a feature does not make them mechanically unsubstitutable. Unless there's a specific rule about that somewhere.
Fey Beast Companion is a benefit granted by a theme, and Ranger Beast Companion is a benefit granted as a class feature that replaces other significant class features.

They're not the same, and I challenge you to prove otherwise based on anything other than "well, they sound alike."

Lack of a rule saying different things are different does not mean you get to say two things are the same.  The argument you've built up is that because nobody bothered to write down the tautological rules, therefore they don't exist.

Sorry, no.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
On the contrary, I don't see anything tautological about specifying which kind of beast companion is eligible for beast mastery benefits. The fact is that the specification is not present.

And it is not simply the lack of a rule that leads to this conclusion, it is also on account of having the same name and categorization. I ask for a specific rule because of those conditions.
You don't see anything tautological about needing to be told that two features aren't the same feature?

Grasping Tide and Grasping Tide:


Grasping Tide

You fall upon your foe like a tidal wave, delivering a series of punches and kicks that catch it within your grasp and drag it along with you.


Encounter        Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic
Standard Action      Melee touch


Target: One creature


Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex


Hit: 2d6 + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.




Grasping Tide

A vortex of water appears amidst your foes, drawing them into its grasp.


At-Will        Implement, Primal
Standard Action      Area burst 1 within 10 squares


Target: Each creature in the burst


Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude


Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, if the target leaves the burst’s area of effect, you can use an opportunity action to make a secondary attack against it.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.


  Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex


  Hit: You knock the target prone.




What you're suggesting would mean that if a feat referred to Grasping Tide with a prerequisite of Monk and says "A target hit by your Grasping Tide is stunned instead of dazed" that that would apply to the other Grasping Tide as well, if you happened to be a Monk with access to both powers.

That cannot happen, and the rules don't have to tell you otherwise.  This is how exception-based rules work:  the default assumption is that every game element is independently defined, and they only share properties if they explicitly say that they do. 

You have to find a rule that says a "Fey Beast Companion" is a "Beast Companion".  Just being named similarly is not enough.  The adjective is not merely a modifier, it is part of the definition.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

What you're suggesting would mean that if a feat referred to Grasping Tide with a prerequisite of Monk and says "A target hit by your Grasping Tide is stunned instead of dazed" that that would apply to the other Grasping Tide as well, if you happened to be a Monk with access to both powers.



I don't see the point in arguing about hypotheticals. They tell us nothing about RAW or RAI.

This is how exception-based rules work:  the default assumption is that every game element is independently defined,



Great, so provide a definition of Fey Beast Companion that shows that it is distinct and separate from all other Beast Companions. Preferably one you find in the rules, and not another useless hypothetical.


The part where it says "Fey Beast Companion" and then lists what that means, and doesn't say that it counts as a Beast Companion for the purpose of things that reference Beast Companion, and in all cases when referring to itself calls itself Fey Beast Companion and not Beast Companion.

It doesn't say it's a Beast Companion, so it's not a Beast Companion.

Fey Beasts are not Beasts.

Fey Beast Companions are not Beast Companions.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Fey Beasts are not Beasts.



Awesome. Tell me where you read that please.
Why should I bother, you reject definitions that don't suit your preconceptions.  You're trying my patience.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Okay don't?

I haven't rejected any definitions because you have yet to cite any.
Except for the names of the features in question, you mean?

I will say the following in all seriousness, and I earnestly hope you take it to heart:


Starting a thread with the sole purpose of confirming something you already believe while dismissing out of hand anything that might contradict you is not a constructive process.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Simply put, they are different named game elements with almost identical effects, and it doesn't make sense (your question) to have them be the same thing that Feats and Powers call upon.

If you think they are the same, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it by quoting revelant rules saying so.
There are two reasons that there is not verbiage in the rules specifying that all feats and powers that require / utilize ranger beast companions do not function with fey beast companions.

Reason 1: Themes did not exist when the Beastmaster Ranger was created, so there was no need for such a specific rule in the paragraph that explains what a ranger beast companion is and is not.

Reason 2: When themes were added, if they were meant to be comparable with ranger beast companion powers/feats/features, the rule saying so would have been included in the write-up for Fey Beast Tamer. The lack of such a statement is precisely the same as a clarification that they are not compatible. The rules do precisely what they say, and no more.

You seem to be treating "Fey" as a keyword, rather than part of the name of the feature.

If there was a ranger feat that said, "increase your wolf companion's bite attack damage by one die size," said feat would not work on a "Dire Wolf" companion - solely on a "Wolf." Despite them both being wolves. "Wolves," are not defined in D&D, and, as such, are not a thing.

"Beast Companion" is defined as a ranger class feature and/or the creatures it summons. "Fey Beast Companion" is defined as a Fey Beast Tamer feature and/or the creatures it summons.  In order to work with the Fey Beast Companions, a feat or power would need to specifically say that it works with Fey Beast Companions.  Any reference in the rules to, "Beast Companions" is referring solely to the ranger feature, and not to anything else. 
You don't see anything tautological about needing to be told that two features aren't the same feature?

Grasping Tide and Grasping Tide:
Grasping Tide (Monk)

Grasping Tide (Druid)




What you're suggesting would mean that if a feat referred to Grasping Tide with a prerequisite of Monk and says "A target hit by your Grasping Tide is stunned instead of dazed" that that would apply to the other Grasping Tide as well, if you happened to be a Monk with access to both powers.

That cannot happen, and the rules don't have to tell you otherwise.  This is how exception-based rules work:  the default assumption is that every game element is independently defined, and they only share properties if they explicitly say that they do. 

You have to find a rule that says a "Fey Beast Companion" is a "Beast Companion".  Just being named similarly is not enough.  The adjective is not merely a modifier, it is part of the definition.



I agree with this if the feat or game element had a context of "Requirement: Monk" or something of that nature.

If the feat had no context or requirement and just said "Your grasping tide power does X in addition", then it would work RAW - regardless of when it was printed. 
I actually do sort of agree that the monk with the druid at-will (half-elf, paragon multiclassing, hybrid) would qualify just fine for the grasping tide feat.

But the grasping tide feat would not make the at-will stun, as it doesn't daze.

 

It's possible for a single character to have 9 pets in play at the same time, each of them with slightly different mechanics. Let's see if I can remember the list:


Sentinel Beast Companion - hybrid class feature
Ranger Beast Companion - Hybrid Talent
Fey Beast Companion or Animal Minion - theme
Spirit Companion - multiclass
Conjuration - power
Summon - power
ordinary animal - purchased
ordinary animal being used as a mount - purchased
Familiar - multiclass granted as paragon path benefit, then feat

(Yeah, this is a theoretical build. Not recommended for actual play.


They are all different. Even the Ranger Beast Companion and Sentinel Beast Companion are different, and do not work with the PC in the same way. The character can tag as Quarry the creature nearest the Ranger Beast Companion, but not the one nearest the Sentinel Beast Companion (unless it's the same creature or the creature nearest the Ranger).

There is nothing anywhere in the rules that indicates any two of them are interchangeable. 

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Nitpick: The sentinel pet is referred to as an "animal companion", not a "beast companion".

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

Heroes of the Feywild, Page 105:

 

The primary feature of your status as a fey beast tamer is your magical beast companion.

 

In the Glossary, both Beast and Fey are keywords.

 

On a side note, to command a regular beast companion to take an opportunity attack, the ranger must take an immediate interrupt (immediate action) to command it to do so(Martial Power), where as a Fey Beast requires the tamer to use an opportunity action to command a fey beast companion to use an opportunity attack. There are a few other minor differences with commands, and the ranger feature beast companion will grant you bonuses depending on certain actions.

 

They also determine their stats a little differently (such as HP = 14+8 per level for wolves, instead of HP = your bloodied value for fey beasts) and their [B] weapon damage does not improve to a 2[B] at 21, unlike the fey beast companions.  Their bonus damage is based on their attributes which get bumps at 4, 8, 11 etc. like a player's character's.  But their attack bonus is based on X+level (Wolves get 4+level, so 26 at level 22) Ranger feature beast companions have their own healing surges instead of relying on yours, when they spend a healing surge, they use their own value (which is probably higher than your ranger's).

 

So the word 'Fey' is not the only difference between them.  If this search kept coming up the way it did for one of my group's players, run it by your DM.

 

But look at it this way, you don't have to have a Beast Mastery Ranger, you can use Fey Beast Tamer to get a pet for your Prime Shot Ranger, or Scout , or Hunter, and that pet will give you some cool stuff, like the aura, and flanking for your allies  And the opportunity attacks are better than your feature beast companion, and you don't lose your immediate action for the round, in case you are in one of your daily stances that let's you use immediate interrupt Ranged Basics against moving enemies, or you want to use Disrupting/Disruptive shot to protect an ally (also immediate interrupts). Things to keep in mind.

They are ORIGIN/TYPE keywords. The fact that the words "Fey" and "Beast" are keywords is irrelevant when they are used in the name of a feature, because keywords are not included located in names.

I'll grant you that when it is a name of a feature.  But it is also the name of a creature.  A Creature Feature, or a Feature Creature?

 

I asked customer service about the Fey Beast Tamer theme on page 105 of Heroes of the Feywild"

 

May a Ranger who chooses Beast Mastery use the beast companion from the theme for feats and attack powers that work with a beast companion?

An example, the Feat "Breath-Resistant Beast" for Dragonborn Rangers:
Your beast companion gains resist 5 + one-half your level to the damage type of your dragon breath racial power.

 

The response from a Jacob was:

 

Hello S,

Thank you for contacting Wizards Customer Service. Yes as long as you have the perquisites to take the feat, it will affect any of your fey beast companions. The Fey Beast Tamer theme just adds additional creatures to what can be chosen for your Beast Mastery.

 

 

In the context of my question, it makes sense.  To DMs that don't like the answers customer support gives, I'm sure they'll ignore it in their games, which is perfectly acceptable in DnD.  And I'm sure there are those that will refer to customer support's perceived failure rate as reason to ignore any ruling.

 

If it adds additional options then you can't have a fey beast companion and a regular one out at the same time.  Fey Beast Companions have some slightly different rules too, tending to have less than half the hitpoints, no healing surges of their own, and no animal specific feats, like the Savage Wolf one, that allow it to remain within ten squares of you instead of being forced to move adjacent to you when it must act independently.  Better pet damage, opportunity-action opportunity-attacks (instead of immediate actions), and a nice aura are what you get for spending a theme for the extra options instead of taking something like Werewolf for increased movement, reflex defense, and utility power options (and claw gloves).

CS being wrong.  Quel surprise.

 

Ask again a couple more times, you'll get different answers.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

Is someone going to get that phone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I effing called it, hah.

See posts 21 and 22 of the 2-year-dead thread you bumped apparently at random to give wrong advice ;)

 

(Why did you feel the need to do that, just out of interest?)

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

Vulf wrote:

[...]The response from a Jacob was[...]

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but his name is Kumar. He works in a call center and has never played 4e before.

Sign In to post comments