The Relentless Crusader: a Paladin|Battlemind

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The Relentless Crusader


The Relentless Crusader is an impassioned champion of his god. He charges into battle before other combatants have realized it's even begun, and locks down his foes before they can act. His zeal cannot be impeded, ignoring most conditions, and once he begins raining blows upon his enemies he gives no quarter. He moves all over the battlefield, constantly punishing any who threaten his allies, and ignoring any blows directed at himself. He is an avatar of fury in the service of his deity.

EDIT 9/6/12: Started as a defender/striker, then KAM was nerfed. Became a little more like a defender/leader...but I finally reworked to a pure defender, and as defenders go, this one is as effective as they come.

Level 30 Build
The Relentless Crusader, level 30
Dragonborn, Battlemind|Paladin, Mithral Arm, Topaz Crusader
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Reflex
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): Hybrid Encounter Power
Hybrid Talent: Psionic Study (Hybrid)
Psionic Study (Hybrid): Speed of Thought (Hybrid)
Bound to Greatness: Bound to Greatness (Constitution)
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Constitution
Background: Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy
Theme: Son of Alagondar

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 28, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 16.

AC: 49 Fort: 48 Reflex: 46 Will: 50
HP: 232 Surges: 18 Surge Value: 73

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +28, Intimidate +30, Insight +21, Endurance +27

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Arcana +15, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16, History +17, Religion +15, Bluff +23, Nature +16, Perception +16, Stealth +17, Streetwise +23, Thievery +17, Athletics +14

FEATS
Level 1: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 2: Draconic Challenge
Level 4: Improved Defenses (retrained to Superior Fortitude at Level 24)
Level 6: Weapon Proficiency (Singing Stick)
Level 8: Hybrid Talent
Level 10: Wrathful Warrior
Level 11: Ubiquitous Shield
Level 12: Dizzying Mace
Level 14: Quick Reactions
Level 16: Superior Will
Level 18: Toughness (retrained to Resounding Thunder at Level 23)
Level 20: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 21: Weakening Challenge
Level 22: Epic Reflexes
Level 24: Superior Reflexes
Level 26: Strength Through Challenge
Level 28: Epic Will
Level 30: Toughness

POWERS
Astral Knowledge: Price of Cowardice
Hybrid at-will 1: Conductive Defense
Hybrid at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Hybrid Encounter Power: Valorous Smite
Hybrid Encounter Power: Spectral Legion (retrained to Lodestone Lure at Level 13) (replaces Conductive Defense)
Psionic Defense (Hybrid): Mind Spike (retrained to Blurred Step at Level 7)
Hybrid daily 1: Majestic Halo
Hybrid utility 2: Call of Challenge
Hybrid daily 5: Nightmare Vortex
Hybrid utility 6: Psionic Ambush (retrained to Virtue at Level 10)
Hybrid at-will/encounter 7: Lightning Rush
Hybrid daily 9: Ray of Reprisal
Hybrid utility 10: Hands of the Titan
Hybrid at-will/encounter 13: Intellect Snap (replaces Valorous Smite)
Hybrid daily 15: Mind Blade (replaces Majestic Halo)
Hybrid utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Hybrid daily 19: Knight's Defiance (replaces Ray of Reprisal)
Hybrid utility 22: Instant Move
Hybrid at-will/encounter 23: Might of the Ogre (replaces Lodestone Lure)
Hybrid daily 25: Discipline the Unruly (replaces Nightmare Vortex)
Hybrid daily 29: Darting Grace Strike (replaces Knight's Defiance)

ITEMS
Elderscale Armor of Durability +6, Symbol of the Champion's Code +5, Timeless Locket +6, Airstriders (epic tier), Foe Caller Gauntlets (epic tier), Ring of Dimensional Escape (paragon tier), Golden Ring of Teros (epic tier), Belt of Vitality (epic tier), Demonskin Tattoo (epic tier), Eberron Shard of Lightning (epic tier), Shield of the Barrier Sentinels Heavy Shield (paragon tier), Unforgettable Cudgel Singing Stick +6, Coif of Focus (epic tier)

How it works:
Virtue can be used before battle to start him with a huge THP buffer. Speed of Thought puts him in position before combat even starts. High initiative (with a 1/day reroll) ensures that he goes first anyway.

He can lay down a mass sanction twice per encounter (Call of Challenge and Draconic Challenge). After that, he has both his Paladin and Battlemind marking mechanisms to keep up to 3 remaining targets marked. There really shouldn't be more than 3 targets alive at this point.

Great crowd-control with Might of the Ogre (often expanded to burst 2). Amazing single-target lockdown with Intellect Snap + Dizzying Mace. And Lightning Rush to punish anyone that can still attack.

On the other side, ridiculous mobility and being harder to kill/disable than most any non-revenant balance out the catch-22.

First round of combat
Lets say you're fighting a mob of standards:
Speed of Thought to get into ideal position (teleport 11 squares)
Call of Challenge to sanction everyone in a burst 3, or dragon breath for a blast 3 if that's sufficient
Hands of the Titan to give bonus damage and keywords
Might of the Ogre aug1 makes a burst 2 (Resounding Thunder), proning them all such that they decide to stay down

Now everyone in a burst 3 has a strong incentive to attack him (adjacent enemies will probably do so while prone, or risk an OA that could daze with Low Blow)...but he has 300+hp to burn through, 53/50/48/50 effective defenses, resist 5 all, 18 surges, and invulnerability to most conditions. So he doesn't mind the attacks so much.

OR maybe there's one big scary enemy:
Speed of Thought
Call of Challenge or DB
Intellect Snap on the big bad, he won't bother you anymore

With an AP, you can combine the two to really ruin Team Monster's day before they even start.

What's so great?
MARKING/PUNISHMENT: As mentioned, he has 2 mass-sanctions, and the ability to keep up to 3 targets marked indefinitely at-will. His sanction/challenge weakens the enemy, and is supplemented by Price of Cowardice, Foe Caller Gauntlets, and Lightning Rush. So each round, he will either absorb an attack for an ally or just nullify it completely via blinding/teleporting away. He buffs his allies' AC as well, making them even less appealing as targets...if the enemies can even get to them, between Might of the Ogre and Intellect Snap.

POWERS/LOCKDOWN: Might of the Ogre can be expanded to burst 2 while Hands of the Titan is active. This combines well with Low Blow; the first that provokes an OA from Might of the Ogre loses their turn if hit, giving a strong incentive to stay prone. Intellect Snap is paired with Dizzying Mace for -9 to attacks on anyone hit. It might as well be a stun in many cases.

SURVIVABILITY: High defenses (51/50/46/50 with Golden Ring of Teros, +2 AC and Ref when flanked), high surge value (with tons of surges), immunity to most conditions, resist 5 all, and multiple self-heals (Virtue, Wrathful Warrior, Son of Alagondar f10, Mithral Arm f11). Plus an encounter interrupt for +4 defenses, and resist 15 to one choice of element on an AP. Even when absorbing attacks for his allies, he is unlikely to go down.

MOBILITY: Blurred Step, Instant Move, Airstriders, immunity to restrained/immobilized, and teleport as a movement mode all work together to make this a very strong area. Speed of Thought puts him perfectly in position on turn 1 (he can teleport there).

OTHER: Paladins and Battleminds both offer some awesome dailies (Mind Blade, Discipline the Unruly, Darting Grace Strike, and Topaz Corona will all drastically change the battle). He's also equipped with a number of strong item dailies.

He doesn't crit often, but when he does it's devastating due to a (save ends) daze that also gives -9 to attacks from Dizzying Mace.

Allies that flank with him get +1 attack. His high mobility and lack of other CA generation (except for round 1 via Superior Reflexes) mean this might come up a lot.

NON-COMBAT/METAGAME: Skills are solid, making a good "face of the party" due to high Charisma.

LFR-legal, and not particularly item-dependent. You could use all common items and still be pretty ultimate.

Is top-tier at pretty much all levels, 1-30. There's no particular "and now the build separates from everyone else" point; it starts off strong, and stays that way.

At lower levels

The build above gives a recommended feat (and power) order. Feel free to change things around based on party composition, campaign details, personal preferences, etc.

Level 1: Conductive Defense, Mind Spike, and sanction/challenge combine pretty well. Valorous Smite is what you want. You're a Chaladin, *and then some,* which means you're a pretty strong defender.

Levels 2-6: Call of Challenge, Draconic Challenge, and Spectral Legion's aug1 add on plenty of defender-ness. 

Levels 7-12: Lightning Rush makes you about as amazing a defender as there is...for about 2 rounds, anyway. Power points are in short supply. If your mark is respected already, consider Forceful Reversal instead. Hands of the Titan gives a nice boost to nova ability, Virtue helps stay alive, and Price of Cowardice is a great punishment stacker.

Levels 13-22: Intellect Snap! You have amazing single-target lockdown now. Also, a good bit more power points now, making Lightning Rush a usable choice. Now that Lightning Rush is easy to use, Mind Spike can be swapped for the mobility boost of Blurred Step. You're also starting to become a bit harder to kill. At level 21, you take Weakening Challenge, and there is much rejoicing.

Levels 23-30: This is where you go from "strong" to "amazing." Might of the Ogre is gives you a tool for crowd control, making you able to handle any situation. The rest of this tier is just about shoring up any last little weaknesses.

Weaknesses:
All shored up as far as I can tell. Let me know if you see any.


Feedback, comments, and criticism are welcome!
Reserved for adding lower level snapshots (whenever I get around to it)

Variants


Themes: Stormraider (+2 init, easy flanking), Noble Adept (1 pp, +1 to a roll), Guardian (punishment stacker), Sohei (minor action attack, boost to saves), Fey Beast Tamer (CA, meat shield, minor bonuses), and Gladiator (for Keep Them Close in epic) are all good alternatives.

Races: Tiefling, Half-Elf, Human, and Stormsoul Genasi are all viable with some good potential benefits. They lose out on Mithral Arm though.

Feats: Finding space is tricky, but there's a few nice ones. Armor Specialization (Scale) adds to AC and speed. Epic Fortitude make that defense nearly unhittable. Glorious Victory adds a 1/enc self-heal. A number of dragonbreath feats, if that's your thing.

Powers: You want to keep Lightning Rush. For the other powers, Brutal Barrage+Brilliant Recovery is good. So is Psionic Speed+Mind of Mirrors (lots of optimization potential).

Items: There's nothing vital here, if you see something you like, just go ahead and take it.

Paragon Paths: Adroit Explorer, Questing Knight, and Champion of Order are all options...but Mithral Arm is miles ahead.

Epic Destinies: Tieflings can make a case for Invincible Mind, but it's pretty tough to beat Topaz Crusader.

BUILDS

Will do later. Hopefully.
If stunning is such a huge weakness, why not take Superior Will? That should help to ameliorate that quite nicely.
I'm pretty sure the 1d6 added damage from the acid sword does not make it a "damage roll" for purposes of bonuses (although I know this has been debated)

Are you using the staff as an implement? If not, why not use a 1-handed weapon like Sword of Black Ice? Now you can use a shield.

Retrain burning vapors to superior will instead...
How are you triggering radiant vulnerability with a corrosive staff and radiant crown? The crown only converts lightning damage to radiant damage, and none of your attacks do either, save for Hands of the Titan. Its a great buff, but you're really only doing crazy DPR once per encounter or once per day. Why not just weild a +3 Prof Radiant Weapon. Hell, Get a +3 Radiant Flail of some sort and pick up flail expertise. Then pick up the feat that makes you slide on a MBA. That way you're more likely to trigger Smite the Fallen, particulrly if you have to charge, and you trip on an OA, making you stickier.
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
I don't know that he is. He has Pervasive Light in there which lets him deal extra damage equal to the radiant vulnerability on non-radiant powers.
Been busy, but I'll try to reply to everyone now.

If stunning is such a huge weakness, why not take Superior Will? That should help to ameliorate that quite nicely.

I'm considering it (swap out Hafted Defense). It loses 1 AC and 1 Ref, and gains 1 Will and the ability to save against stun at the start of the turn...AC is a pretty good thing. And stun will still suck, just not quite as much due to at least having a chance of getting around it. Maybe it's a good trade.

I'm pretty sure the 1d6 added damage from the acid sword does not make it a "damage roll" for purposes of bonuses (although I know this has been debated)

Are you using the staff as an implement? If not, why not use a 1-handed weapon like Sword of Black Ice? Now you can use a shield.

Retrain burning vapors to superior will instead...

The 1d6 definitely adds a damage roll by RAW, that's totally unambiguous in the current wording of the rules (I posted about this recently here). It does rub some people the wrong way though, so one of my variant builds will not use the staff, for people who have a DM that houserules it.

Never knew about that sword...pretty awesome as a capstone item. Can swap Burning Vapors for Paladin's Truth to get around poison immunity...very nice! That sword is honestly kinda broken though, it doesn't even deal "extra damage," it actually creates a whole new damage instance. So Pelor's Sun Blessing would be counted twice, and it can be used to give damage to non-damaging attacks. Majorly needs errata.

How are you triggering radiant vulnerability with a corrosive staff and radiant crown? The crown only converts lightning damage to radiant damage, and none of your attacks do either, save for Hands of the Titan. Its a great buff, but you're really only doing crazy DPR once per encounter or once per day. Why not just weild a +3 Prof Radiant Weapon. Hell, Get a +3 Radiant Flail of some sort and pick up flail expertise. Then pick up the feat that makes you slide on a MBA. That way you're more likely to trigger Smite the Fallen, particulrly if you have to charge, and you trip on an OA, making you stickier.

Pervasive Light triggers the vulnerability. Smite the Fallen + Virtuous Strike is what creates the vulnerability in the first place. So as long as he hits with VS on the previous turn, all attacks can exploit the vulnerability.

The Corrosive Staff is important though because it creates a damage roll, that's why I'm using it over other, "better" weapons.
"+1d6" is equivalent to "1d6 extra damage", thus it never counts as a "damage roll" for the purpose of adding modifiers. Same as the Thundergod Weapon.
"+1d6" is equivalent to "1d6 extra damage", thus it never counts as a "damage roll" for the purpose of adding modifiers. Same as the Thundergod Weapon.

Adding text that doesn't exist does indeed modify how things work. Sadly that text doesn't exist.

Also the argument for it adding a damage roll would still apply even if it was extra damage.
"+1d6" is equivalent to "1d6 extra damage", thus it never counts as a "damage roll" for the purpose of adding modifiers. Same as the Thundergod Weapon.


I agree it's extra damage. And it is a damage roll - a roll of dice to determine damage. Again, I wrote up a more full post on it here, but by RAW this isn't even slightly ambiguous. Any "power or other effect" that rolls dice for damage is a damage roll; the Staff of Corrosion property is an effect that rolls dice to determine damage, thus it is a damage roll.

I know a lot of people tend to houserule it though because they think it's cheesy, and that's fine, I'll try to make a variant that accounts for that. 
Is Stun worth listing as a weakness?

Very few characters aren't weak to stun.

It's like saying your character is weak to being hit by highly damaging attacks.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Is Stun worth listing as a weakness?

Very few characters aren't weak to stun.

It's like saying your character is weak to being hit by highly damaging attacks.


Haha, I suppose. But I mean, he's immune to pretty much everything else, so...it stands out as a way to harm him. He can counter a highly damaging attack using one of his self-heals; his only response to stun is just to sit there and watch. Doesn't even have a single save-granting ability.

I'll probably swap Hafted Defense -> Superior Will so that I can somewhat justify removing that line. 
Why Dragonborn over Tiefling?

Dispater's Iron Disciple + Superior Will = nearly immunte to daze and stun, while helping limit the harm of a save-ends domination.

Wrath of the Crimson Legion = CHA MBA and Paladin's Wrath.

Loads of other great feats.
Why Dragonborn over Tiefling?

Dispater's Iron Disciple + Superior Will = nearly immunte to daze and stun, while helping limit the harm of a save-ends domination.

Wrath of the Crimson Legion = CHA MBA and Paladin's Wrath.

Loads of other great feats.


Good question. I thought about it pretty seriously, but went with Dragonborn for a few reasons:
1) Dispater's Iron Discipline isn't worth it when I'm already immune to daze and dominate via Topaz Crusader. In fact, most of the awesome Tiefling feats just didn't quite fit over the other feats I wanted to take.

2) Wrath of the Crimson Legion is awesome, but Draconic Challenge is pretty excellent too since Dragon Breath has the added bonus of being a minor action attack power. Especially as a striker/defender, Dragon Breath adds a nice nova plus AoE that's otherwise missing. I consider these somewhat of a toss-up.

3) The thing that finally decided it for me was the +Con to surge value. I put a good bit of effort into optimizing surge value, and Dragonborn just helps that a lot.
I was running some numbers to create a version that doesn't use a "created" damage roll, and I found that a Withering Longsword holds up extremely well compared to a Staff of Corrosion, even though it loses a lot of pure damage. This build is low on accuracy, and with the multi-attacks/off-turn attacks that happen here, Withering ends up extremely competitive on DPR, with a bunch of other added benefits (AC debuff is exploitable by the whole party, can use a shield, more effective punishment stackers, etc). The Sword of Black Ice is still better at the end of Epic, but until then, Withering is surprisingly awesome - and doesn't require using rules that some people call "cheesy."
If a power does not call for a damage roll, it does not have a damage roll, and the rules compendium does not override rules it does not contain. "Creating" damage rolls is impossible, with the exception of the power Echoing Weapon (and its upgraded version). Assassin's Shroud also creates one, but one to which bonuses to damage rolls don't apply, making the point moot.


RC 222: "Whenever a power or other effect requires a damage roll..." -> Damage rolls are not limited to powers.

Since damage rolls are not limited to powers, that means extra damage (like the 1d4 from Malec-Keth Janissary) is a damage roll. This also follows easily from the actual definition of the term "damage roll": "a roll of dice to determine damage." It is not some inherent property of a power - it's not even restricted to powers! It's any roll of damage dice, at all.

So it doesn't matter if the power does not have a damage roll; the MKJ level 16 feature does have a damage roll, which can be modified by any applicable damage roll bonuses. If you deal the MKJ damage via a melee attack, it is a "melee damage roll" and benefits from IAoP. This is of course just an example, but the logic applies to any other "extra damage" effects as well.
Any power or effect which does not specify a quantity of dice to roll does not "require a damage roll".

The MKJ feature (and anything similar) does specify a quantity of dice. 1d4 in that case. It requires a damage roll.

Whether extra damage requires you roll dice is as a result irrelevant, because if the damage instance it's being added on to does not specify a set of dice to roll, the effect does not "require a damage roll", and the plain reader and your variable extra damage quantity can hang.

Again, you're looking at the wrong piece. The effect that "requires a damage roll" is the MKJ feature, not the power it's used with. However, by adding it to the power, it changes the power itself, as though the original power card changed to have the damage there. This is how pretty much everything that's part of the same action works; we agreed on this exact idea in the Sir Francis Bacon thread...

Extra damage becomes part of the power it's used with. If the extra damage involves a damage roll, then the power involves a damage roll. This might've been a little ambiguous under PHB wording, but with the RC it's pretty clear-cut.
Brutal Barrage does not specify a type and number of dice to roll. Brutal Barrage therefore does not have a damage roll. That is all that needs to be said on the matter in order to know the outcome.

Your argument is, simply put, wishful thinking. You're trying to make an analogy between damage rolls and damage keywords to imply inheritance, but analogies have no meaning in this ruleset and the texts of the rules under discussion differ. There is no "rolled" keyword that Primordial Blade could carry to the power. There is no way that the Primordial Blade feature --which is not a power-- could possess any keywords at all. There is only the actual text of the rules, and by that text, if a power does not specify a type and number of dice to roll, that power cannot have a damage roll. The standard of "specification" demanded by the rules and the lack of any analogous feature to power keywording for damage rolls constitute a nigh-insurmountable wall between the status of a damage instance and any post-hoc alteration of the power.

I'm not saying that it's like adding a keyword, it's more like adding a slide. Mark of Storm adds a slide -> lightning powers would now qualify as "a power that slides." This particular usage of Brutal Barrage adds the Primordial Blade feature to it, so this instance of Brutal Barrage rolls dice for damage (i.e. it has a damage roll). Or similar for the Staff of Corrosion. It doesn't matter what is written in the base power, because other game elements will modify the power.

I'd like to at least make sure I'm clear on your position here, so do we at least agree that Brutal Barrage + Primordial Blade dealing cold damage + Icy Heart would deal Con+1d4+4 damage in epic? As in, at the very least, Primordial Blade can count as a "cold damage roll"?

And to be fair, I actually took out the damage roll stuff anyway because I realized a Withering weapon is better (I reaaally like this build now: amazing party member all-around). So I'm free from any bias about wanting my build to work.
I updated with Variants. Now I'm thinking the variant builds might be more impressive than the main one Undecided what do you guys think?

I'm also still open to suggestions for improvement. I haven't been able to find any other optimized Paladin|Battlemind builds to compare to. It's a fantastic combination IMHO.
First and for most I would like to say thanks for posting this delicious build.  It has made me think about a few things concerning my own character.  That being said, some comments from me...


I have been playing around with a Tiefling Paladin|Battlemind for quite a while, but could never really decide on a PP that really justified the character.  I never really took a look at KAM as a serious PP, other than DPR, but the way it interacts with this character concept is just marvelous.

While the Topaz Crusader ED is very powerful, in the Tiefling variant I would probably go with something different.  I believe it is better to actually have that variant make saves, especially against stun, dominate, and daze, and grant his allies a large bonus due to Hero's Poise against those saves that they are most likely affected with themselves.
I found the combination between Invincible Mind ED and the Samurai Theme(with the Speed of Thought almost always getting you adjecent or close to the enemy front line) very useable.  Almost always goes first, and with 5 attacks, at a 18-20 crit range, you are going to crit a lot more often than most other character.  Due to being a Tielfing you can use Secrets of Belial for the SM Lv16 Utility Power Borrowed Confindence for the double rolls for a round, since you can't multiclass Avenger >.<'  Or just Mind Blade for crits automatically.  You are however, very feat starved...

However, I also find the Dragonborn version very appealing.  It is a really difficult choice between those two, but with the Dragonborn I would focus more on the second wind aspect since you get such a awesome racial benefit.
First, I like the build concept a lot, but I think if you dont focus on striking, it can be much better at defending.

KAM and brutal barrage are great for striker builds but we know you can be the best at defense and offense. What about find a more defensive paragon path and use forceful reversal to make a good catch-22?

What do you think about Dreadnought or Mithral Arm pp or Questing Knight?

Iron Vanguard, with forceful reversal and draconic arrogance is... well you know +lots of damage for attacking you, and this is nice for a good catch-22, that makes you a better defender.

I think topaz crusader is stupidly good for defenders, I think hero's poise is retrain-meat in epic, or if you go dreadnought, I think you can avoid it.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
While the Topaz Crusader ED is very powerful, in the Tiefling variant I would probably go with something different.  I believe it is better to actually have that variant make saves, especially against stun, dominate, and daze, and grant his allies a large bonus due to Hero's Poise against those saves that they are most likely affected with themselves.
I found the combination between Invincible Mind ED and the Samurai Theme(with the Speed of Thought almost always getting you adjecent or close to the enemy front line) very useable.  Almost always goes first, and with 5 attacks, at a 18-20 crit range, you are going to crit a lot more often than most other character.  Due to being a Tielfing you can use Secrets of Belial for the SM Lv16 Utility Power Borrowed Confindence for the double rolls for a round, since you can't multiclass Avenger >.<' or="" just="" mind="" blade="" for="" crits="" automatically="" you="" are="" however="" very="" feat="" starved="" br="">
However, I also find the Dragonborn version very appealing.  It is a really difficult choice between those two, but with the Dragonborn I would focus more on the second wind aspect since you get such a awesome racial benefit.

Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it.

I did at one point consider a Tiefling Invincible Mind. Didn't consider the synergy with Samurai, or Borrowed Confidence for SoB...my thought was Ethereal Sidestep to get around slowed/immobilized/restrained/prone. But BC is a very nice choice as well.

The downside is that you lose 3 feats, 3 AC, 2 to all NADs, and 3 power points (and some items would need to dedicate to teleport boosting); you gain 2 attack, 10 initiative, teleportation, iaijutsu, and amazing save-granting. It's certainly a good enough variant to mention. Less defender, more leader and striker. I'll add it in.
First, I like the build concept a lot, but I think if you dont focus on striking, it can be much better at defending.

KAM and brutal barrage are great for striker builds but we know you can be the best at defense and offense. What about find a more defensive paragon path and use forceful reversal to make a good catch-22?

What do you think about Dreadnought or Mithral Arm pp or Questing Knight?

Iron Vanguard, with forceful reversal and draconic arrogance is... well you know +lots of damage for attacking you, and this is nice for a good catch-22, that makes you a better defender.

I think topaz crusader is stupidly good for defenders, I think hero's poise is retrain-meat in epic, or if you go dreadnought, I think you can avoid it.

Thanks for the response, I like getting good tips.

I don't think Dreadnought synergizes that well with this build; Topaz Crusader+Strength Through Challenge make it a bit less useful than normal.
KAM already gives a free action second wind (though Questing Knight's can be used multiple times per encounter)... Honestly, QK is very nice, I guess it just doesn't wow me for whatever reason.
Mithral Arm would probably be my next choice for PP. Lots of neat features, and the teleport can even be used with Lightning Rush since it's a "movement mode."
Iron Vanguard + Forceful Reversal would be way too much punishment for attacking me I'd think. At that point, the only punishment for attacking an ally is my sanction/challenge (which needs to be on the enemy in question, and isn't too intimidating at all).

In general, I like LR much more than FR because it lets me play a "zone defense" of sorts, where I don't even have to have the enemy marked, I can still punish it. Taking attacks doesn't bug me at all: high defenses, invulnerability to conditions, and crazy "healability" (with ways to self-heal, as well) are where the catch-22 come from; enemies have a hard time truly harming me, hence wanting to attack my allies instead, so anything that works to shut that down is more important. I think FR would make my allies way too appealing as targets. Maaaaybe with the Guardian theme and Price of Cowardice as additional punishment stackers...but if anything, I'd swap out Lightning Rush for Brilliant Recovery.

As for KAM...I think you're overlooking the benefits that KAM provides. It's not at all just a boost to striking; even if my Smite the Fallen attack dealt 0 damage, it would still contribute via
1) granting radiant vulnerability (with Pelor's Sun Blessing, this adds 17 damage at L30 to everything I do, including sanction/challenge damage); exploitable by the whole party.
2) stacking another -1 to AC; exploitable by the whole party
3) giving me a +2 to saving throws
4) Tempered in Blood is a great utility power
And then finally, in addition to all that other good stuff, it also deals an MBA worth of damage. It's Morninglord plus an accuracy buff for your party plus a saving throw buff, with a power that lets you second wind as a free action...and then it also does an MBA of damage. KAM is kind of awesome.

Did you look at the "high control" variant? If you were hoping for a stronger defender aspect, that one certainly obliges.
I tried to put together a Paladin|Battlemind a little while ago and it was suggested to me that Champion of Order makes a good PP.  You can triple punish and probably foil their attack if you only aug-1 on your LR's, or just triple punish if you run out of power points.  More importantly, Battlemind's Demand (persistent mark) + Certain Justice = retardedly good.  Completely neuter a monster of your choice, every encounter, for the whole encounter.  You need Bracers of Mental Might to do it, but that's not hard.
Thanks for the response, I like getting good tips.

I don't think Dreadnought synergizes that well with this build; Topaz Crusader+Strength Through Challenge make it a bit less useful than normal.
KAM already gives a free action second wind (though Questing Knight's can be used multiple times per encounter)... Honestly, QK is very nice, I guess it just doesn't wow me for whatever reason.
Mithral Arm would probably be my next choice for PP. Lots of neat features, and the teleport can even be used with Lightning Rush since it's a "movement mode."
Iron Vanguard + Forceful Reversal would be way too much punishment for attacking me I'd think. At that point, the only punishment for attacking an ally is my sanction/challenge (which needs to be on the enemy in question, and isn't too intimidating at all).

In general, I like LR much more than FR because it lets me play a "zone defense" of sorts, where I don't even have to have the enemy marked, I can still punish it. Taking attacks doesn't bug me at all: high defenses, invulnerability to conditions, and crazy "healability" (with ways to self-heal, as well) are where the catch-22 come from; enemies have a hard time truly harming me, hence wanting to attack my allies instead, so anything that works to shut that down is more important. I think FR would make my allies way too appealing as targets. Maaaaybe with the Guardian theme and Price of Cowardice as additional punishment stackers...but if anything, I'd swap out Lightning Rush for Brilliant Recovery.

As for KAM...I think you're overlooking the benefits that KAM provides. It's not at all just a boost to striking; even if my Smite the Fallen attack dealt 0 damage, it would still contribute via
1) granting radiant vulnerability (with Pelor's Sun Blessing, this adds 17 damage at L30 to everything I do, including sanction/challenge damage); exploitable by the whole party.
2) stacking another -1 to AC; exploitable by the whole party
3) giving me a +2 to saving throws
4) Tempered in Blood is a great utility power
And then finally, in addition to all that other good stuff, it also deals an MBA worth of damage. It's Morninglord plus an accuracy buff for your party plus a saving throw buff, with a power that lets you second wind as a free action...and then it also does an MBA of damage. KAM is kind of awesome.

Did you look at the "high control" variant? If you were hoping for a stronger defender aspect, that one certainly obliges.



I have other point of view about Dreadnought. It "gives" you 2 feats (Kulkor Battlearm Student, and Strength Through Challenge). You dont need this 2 feats with this pp. I agree KAM is great that is not debatable.

Mithral Arm gives you Price of Cowardice and if you want to keep LR without taking OA's -> WIN for this build. I agree this is better for defend your allies, the "problem" (If can be considered a problem) is that you will be attacked all the time because there is no catch-22. But you have mega big defenses and good survability and surges. I think this is the best PP for the build. And you dont have to take reserve maneuver or keep a power you cant use.

And you can have LR and FR instead brutal barrage, but i preffer Lodestone Lure, in practice is a great lockdown and versatility for the range 5 (flying enemies, artillery, etc).

Guardian theme is great, but you wont use the inmediate much, because you will start the combats with Speed of Thought into the enemy cluster, and allies wont be at 2 squares. Did you think in Fey Beast Tamer (fey panther)? free CA and you dont give CA looks great for me, and it has lots of HP. Devil's Pawn is good too and maybe knight hospitaler.


And How does KAM grant radiant vulnerability? I dont get it. And Pelor's Sun Blessing shoul not be build core. KAM is not morninglord, never. In some builds KAM is better, in others builds morninglord is.

Summarizing, I like the Mithral Arm with LR and Lodestone Lure, with Price of Cowardice. No FR.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader

And How does KAM grant radiant vulnerability? I dont get it. 



He is using Virtuous Strike for the KAM attack, which grants vulnerability in combination with Power of the Sun.
I tried to put together a Paladin|Battlemind a little while ago and it was suggested to me that Champion of Order makes a good PP.  You can triple punish and probably foil their attack if you only aug-1 on your LR's, or just triple punish if you run out of power points.  More importantly, Battlemind's Demand (persistent mark) + Certain Justice = retardedly good.  Completely neuter a monster of your choice, every encounter, for the whole encounter.  You need Bracers of Mental Might to do it, but that's not hard.


Oh yeah...Certain Justice is so ridiculous to me that I actively avoid that PP. But it is a good one. My issues: triple punishment seems like it'd probably be overkill, and Certain Justice only works 1/enc. I think I'd still prefer Mithral Arm (and, of course, KAM).
I have other point of view about Dreadnought. It "gives" you 2 feats (Kulkor Battlearm Student, and Strength Through Challenge). You dont need this 2 feats with this pp. I agree KAM is great that is not debatable.

Mithral Arm gives you Price of Cowardice and if you want to keep LR without taking OA's -> WIN for this build. I agree this is better for defend your allies, the "problem" (If can be considered a problem) is that you will be attacked all the time because there is no catch-22. But you have mega big defenses and good survability and surges. I think this is the best PP for the build. And you dont have to take reserve maneuver or keep a power you cant use.

And you can have LR and FR instead brutal barrage, but i preffer Lodestone Lure, in practice is a great lockdown and versatility for the range 5 (flying enemies, artillery, etc).

Guardian theme is great, but you wont use the inmediate much, because you will start the combats with Speed of Thought into the enemy cluster, and allies wont be at 2 squares. Did you think in Fey Beast Tamer (fey panther)? free CA and you dont give CA looks great for me, and it has lots of HP. Devil's Pawn is good too and maybe knight hospitaler.


And How does KAM grant radiant vulnerability? I dont get it. And Pelor's Sun Blessing shoul not be build core. KAM is not morninglord, never. In some builds KAM is better, in others builds morninglord is.

Summarizing, I like the Mithral Arm with LR and Lodestone Lure, with Price of Cowardice. No FR.


Good point about other PPs opening up some feat room. That's pretty valuable. In fact, it'd really eliminate KBS, Power of Sun, Pervasive Light, and Wrathful Warrior...4 extra feats (and MC options) is nice. I might have to work out a Mithral Arm version and see how it compares.

The thing is, avoiding OAs isn't as big a thing as it sounds. With the THP powers and second wind and all that, he has effectively 448 hp per encounter (not counting any healing from allies). And he's immune to many of the bad conditions that could be afflicted. The average L30 mob will make an MBA at +35 vs. AC and deal 4d8+20 damage on a hit, meaning he can afford to be attacked 38 times per encounter and come out alive. Obviously this is a bit oversimplified, but the point is, provoking a few OAs each encounter is generally fine.

Lodestone Lure doesn't compare to BB at all in my opinion. Proning is nearly as good as the LL effect to me (not always, but often enough as far as I'm concerned), and the range doesn't matter much for a Mithral Arm build because you can teleport-charge if you just want to get there. But really, my biggest problem with it is that, as a hybrid, LR+LL means only getting 4 power points per encounter. That's only two chances to use LR. If I were swapping out BB I'd probably go with Might of the Ogre...but the BB attacks also debuff enemy AC, which is a very nice benefit for everyone.

Theme-wise, I don't like Fey Beast Tamer because, as you pointed out, Speed of Thought is putting me where I want to be right away. I don't actually take any move actions until turn 2 at the earliest, meaning the companion is hard to manage. Otherwise, it'd be pretty nice. What does Devil's Pawn really have to offer besides the power? It seems kinda meh to me. Knight Hospitaler I consider a trap; Lightning Rush will pretty much always be better.

KAM gives radiant vulnerability because it lets you use Virtuous Strike, which is boosted by Power of Sun. It's a good combo. There's lots of little side-benefits that come from it. Like, for example, you can reliably expect to trigger Psychic Feast because of how much damage you're doing. That's a good survivability boost.


@anyone: If I were to switch paragon paths, what might be a good alternative for my MC? Or should I stick with fighter for some other reason (or just not do an MC feat)?

And How does KAM grant radiant vulnerability? I dont get it. 



He is using Virtuous Strike for the KAM attack, which grants vulnerability in combination with Power of the Sun.



Ah yes, missed that. But this is not KAM, this is KAM Plus 1 feat (plus  Kulkor Battlearm Student) = KAM+2 feats. and morninglord gives 10 vulnerability (since level 16) instead 3/5/8. This is not morninglord in my town. And then you need Pervasive Light for BB (3 feats) and other resources for BB.

The "problem" I see is that the build as proposed speds lots of resources at striking, when it can be one much more powerfull in defense / defend allies. It can be an ultimate defender (in my opinion).
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
The thing is, avoiding OAs isn't as big a thing as it sounds. With the THP powers and second wind and all that, he has effectively 448 hp per encounter (not counting any healing from allies). And he's immune to many of the bad conditions that could be afflicted. The average L30 mob will make an MBA at +35 vs. AC and deal 4d8+20 damage on a hit, meaning he can afford to be attacked 38 times per encounter and come out alive. Obviously this is a bit oversimplified, but the point is, provoking a few OAs each encounter is generally fine.


Well fair point but you I dont buy it. Avoid OA's (note the plural, because you will be adjacent to more than 1 enemy) = better than eat those attacks. There are conditions that you cant avoid for example prone, and you fail at LR. And there are crits and enemies who make high damage.

You will be harmed in combat, you can be bloodied (easy in second round) and with 3 enemies adjacent to you. Then you need to use LR for protect your wizard. What you do? Take 3 OA? No. Price or cowardice will be nice now isnt? Or LR with teleport. I only waht to show you that there are many situations where you cant defend your allies.

Lodestone Lure doesn't compare to BB at all in my opinion. Proning is nearly as good as the LL effect to me (not always, but often enough as far as I'm concerned), and the range doesn't matter much for a Mithral Arm build because you can teleport-charge if you just want to get there. But really, my biggest problem with it is that, as a hybrid, LR+LL means only getting 4 power points per encounter. That's only two chances to use LR. If I were swapping out BB I'd probably go with Might of the Ogre...but the BB attacks also debuff enemy AC, which is a very nice benefit for everyone.


I dont agree. BB takes you lots of resources, not only the power. Lodestone Lure needs only the power, you dont need power points for lockdown an enemy. Prone is not even near to the Lodestone Lure effect. Weapon slot is also taken, you will notice that teleport is very common in late paragon-epic, and proned enemies can teleport too (and charge).

Theme-wise, I don't like Fey Beast Tamer because, as you pointed out, Speed of Thought is putting me where I want to be right away. I don't actually take any move actions until turn 2 at the earliest, meaning the companion is hard to manage. Otherwise, it'd be pretty nice. What does Devil's Pawn really have to offer besides the power? It seems kinda meh to me. Knight Hospitaler I consider a trap; Lightning Rush will pretty much always be better.


True. but if you wont move, why not move your pet with that wasted move action? Or you use 2 minor actions and a standard in the first and second rounds? Im not sure is the best theme but giving you CA and avoid CA (free paragon feat) plus the versatility of a square-blocker and the option of making OAs when you wont looks ok for me. Devil's pawn is awesome only for the power yes. In the first round (and second), is when enemies use all of their best powers (usually encounter), and you can make popcorns with minions before they cant act, because you are in the best position before the combat starts.

If you want to look for other things, son of alagondar is solid too.

@anyone: If I were to switch paragon paths, what might be a good alternative for my MC? Or should I stick with fighter for some other reason (or just not do an MC feat)?


The best thing comes to my mind (for defend ofcourse :P) is Defender of the Wild (warden) + Sudden Roots.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
Well fair point but you I dont buy it. Avoid OA's (note the plural, because you will be adjacent to more than 1 enemy) = better than eat those attacks. There are conditions that you cant avoid for example prone, and you fail at LR. And there are crits and enemies who make high damage.

You will be harmed in combat, you can be bloodied (easy in second round) and with 3 enemies adjacent to you. Then you need to use LR for protect your wizard. What you do? Take 3 OA? No. Price or cowardice will be nice now isnt? Or LR with teleport. I only waht to show you that there are many situations where you cant defend your allies.

Crits and high damage aren't a big deal; even if the enemy does twice as much damage as normal, that means I can take 19 attacks (and if it's such a tough battle, I can always activate Topaz Corona). But yeah, if it prones or slows that's a problem.

Here's how I see it though: how often does this type of situation come up? I kill enemies fairly quickly on my own, and I have two alternate punishment stackers that both would work in the situation being described (Foe Caller Gauntlets and Demand Respect). Added to that is the fact that, if I'm already surrounded by 3 other enemies, maybe using LR now isn't a great idea anyway. If I move away from the guys next to me, maybe they wander off and punch my wizard a few times. By using LR, I take away the threat of LR from all the enemies that go later, which is actually a big thing because one huge benefit of LR is that it coaxes the DM into sending all the monsters after you so that you can't use it. If you're surrounded by enemies, just save LR for a different one - you can only use it once per round anyway. If you really just need to stop that attack, use Foe Caller Gauntlets or Demand Respect (or try to use LR and hope the OAs don't prone or slow you).

I dont agree. BB takes you lots of resources, not only the power. Lodestone Lure needs only the power, you dont need power points for lockdown an enemy. Prone is not even near to the Lodestone Lure effect. Weapon slot is also taken, you will notice that teleport is very common in late paragon-epic, and proned enemies can teleport too (and charge).

The Lodestone Lure effect is better than prone if you're away from your allies. This build prefers to have allies nearby, for Lightning Rush and a flanking buddy and to take advantage of the AC debuffing. In that case, LL doesn't help at all.

Plus Might of the Ogre is better in all cases unless the enemy is teleporting, or you need to pull them vs. going to them for whatever reason. Brutal Barrage is more likely to trigger its effect than LL (more likely to hit 2 out of 3 than 1 out of 1...even better if BB is augmented, which it should be).

But really, as a hybrid Paladin with Lightning Rush, keeping enemies adjacent just isn't as vital as it is for most other defenders. They're just as likely to want to attack me as the best possible option (especially if I'm dealing a bunch of damage and debuffs).

True. but if you wont move, why not move your pet with that wasted move action? Or you use 2 minor actions and a standard in the first and second rounds? Im not sure is the best theme but giving you CA and avoid CA (free paragon feat) plus the versatility of a square-blocker and the option of making OAs when you wont looks ok for me. Devil's pawn is awesome only for the power yes. In the first round (and second), is when enemies use all of their best powers (usually encounter), and you can make popcorns with minions before they cant act, because you are in the best position before the combat starts.

Didn't quite think about that with Devil's Pawn. And yeah, FBT could be made to work...I agree, solid choices.

Do you have a break down of the math? I'm wondering if Barrage Bracers might not actually contribute to DPR, Iron Armbands would only be modifying Virtuous Strike, whereas the additional bonus to hit (on top of the withering weapon) makes the prone, and subsequent vulnerability more likely...


I'm a fan of the focused array anyway, and niether the battlemind nor paladin have native accuracy bonuses. I'd lean strongly towards barrage bracers if forced to play this build, even if it amounted to a cut in damage. I'd also lean toward tiefling (racial accuracy bonus vs bloodied opponents, especially if DPR is what you claim, 2 round striker), in spite of the big surge value bonus from dragonborn. Also, if you took gladiator theme, the keep them close feat (improving stickiness), which also opens viscious advantage, though the feat expenditure to manufacture CA is probably needless with a cooperative party. Still, close attacks are the bane of Defenders in general...


Even with the big cushion of THP, I'm not certain how much milage you'll actually get out of Champions Countenance (being a defender, you want to get hit, and even 74 is going to get eaten through fairly quickly in Epic, especially with Weakening Challenge, which makes you the best target). However, if you choose to continue with with that, I'd consider retraining for Virtue, and a Cincture of Vivacity.


It's a nice build, BTW, a bit contrived for my tastes (by which I mean the wasted PP powers, taken for nothing except the level 16 feature), but you aren't the first to do that, and it's terribly effective, regardless of my personal tastes.


 Smile
Do you have a break down of the math? I'm wondering if Barrage Bracers might not actually contribute to DPR, Iron Armbands would only be modifying Virtuous Strike, whereas the additional bonus to hit (on top of the withering weapon) makes the prone, and subsequent vulnerability more likely...

I'm a fan of the focused array anyway, and niether the battlemind nor paladin have native accuracy bonuses. I'd lean strongly towards barrage bracers if forced to play this build, even if it amounted to a cut in damage. I'd also lean toward tiefling (racial accuracy bonus vs bloodied opponents, especially if DPR is what you claim, 2 round striker), in spite of the big surge value bonus from dragonborn. Also, if you took gladiator theme, the keep them close feat (improving stickiness), which also opens viscious advantage, though the feat expenditure to manufacture CA is probably needless with a cooperative party. Still, close attacks are the bane of Defenders in general...


Even with the big cushion of THP, I'm not certain how much milage you'll actually get out of Champions Countenance (being a defender, you want to get hit, and even 74 is going to get eaten through fairly quickly in Epic, especially with Weakening Challenge, which makes you the best target). However, if you choose to continue with with that, I'd consider retraining for Virtue, and a Cincture of Vivacity.


It's a nice build, BTW, a bit contrived for my tastes (by which I mean the wasted PP powers, taken for nothing except the level 16 feature), but you aren't the first to do that, and it's terribly effective, regardless of my personal tastes.

Barrage Bracers are slightly better on DPR, but they only really help my on-turn damage. IAoP improve OAs and Lightning Rush and if I'm ever forced to charge; they also give a huge damage boost when I use Bless Weapon (since it adds a damage roll). The +1 to hit on the Smite the Fallen attack is nice though, given all the riders associated with it...it's a great option, I can't decide which is better.

I somehow never knew Keep Them Close existed. Sadly I don't think this build needs it much (doesn't need stickiness as much as most defenders), but in the future I am totally making a build that uses that. A Gladiator Battlemind MC Fighter with Keep Them Close, World Serpent's Grasp, and Overwhelming Impact...at level 21 you can spam Psionic Speed to keep up to 3 enemies constantly dazed+prone since PS will mark (which slows, triggering OI) and if they are still slowed from last round then WSG will prone. Devouring Demand lets you guarantee they start the turn slowed, and Brilliant Recovery makes it more reliable. Mmm...feel free to beat me to it, but someone should build that, it is wonderful. If only it worked before epic...and Psionic Speed+Lightning Rush runs into a power point issue for hybrids due to how they get pp's.

Close attacks aren't as bad for me as for most defenders; Lightning Rush still works just fine.

Champion's Countenance isn't so much meant to defend allies when they get attacked, it's meant more to dissuade enemies from attacking them at all. But yeah, if I were trading out a feat it'd be one of my first picks to go. Maybe for Ubiquitous Shield. With how much the enemies have to swarm, that's roughly worth a +2 to all defenses. In fact, yes, I will go change that.

Cincture is nice, but so is the Belt of Vitality, and since all of my self-heals are either THP or activate when bloodied, the Cincture doesn't seem as good. I could swap in Virtue for Instant Move, but...do you think it's really necessary? 3 self-heals already, and the leader should contribute at least 1 more, possibly with additional buffs.

That's fair about KAM. Although using a battleaxe to get the level 11 features isn't crazy (I just prefer the accuracy of a longsword). Or a warhammer for all those shenanigans (Hammer Rhythm in Epic, if you're willing to lose 1 point of reflex to meet stat reqs). And I certainly use the u12, and I'm using the L16 in a really significant way, not just "+damage yay!" Out of curiousity, what PP would you pick?
Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it.

I did at one point consider a Tiefling Invincible Mind. Didn't consider the synergy with Samurai, or Borrowed Confidence for SoB...my thought was Ethereal Sidestep to get around slowed/immobilized/restrained/prone. But BC is a very nice choice as well.

The downside is that you lose 3 feats, 3 AC, 2 to all NADs, and 3 power points (and some items would need to dedicate to teleport boosting); you gain 2 attack, 10 initiative, teleportation, iaijutsu, and amazing save-granting. It's certainly a good enough variant to mention. Less defender, more leader and striker. I'll add it in.



I can see losing two feats; one for Hero's Poise, but if you drop Superior Initiative then it's a decent trade off, and one for Secrets of Belial, and that one is really how much you want a different utility(since then ones you have already are solid).

The same arguement can be said about losing 3AC, you would probably be taking Agile Armor for a +2 item bonus(or w/e you can scrounge at character creation), instead of the H.S. boosting armor in your DB build.  While limited in it's use, it is alright due to the KAM utility power.

The power point lose is definately a big blow though, and I am not sure of ways to gain PP's back.  You should be set for 2 rounds I hope, depending on your choices.  And the 24th level feature lets you gain back PP reasonable reliably for the rounds afterwards, at least enough to continue augmenting your LR.
I can see losing two feats; one for Hero's Poise, but if you drop Superior Initiative then it's a decent trade off, and one for Secrets of Belial, and that one is really how much you want a different utility(since then ones you have already are solid).

The same arguement can be said about losing 3AC, you would probably be taking Agile Armor for a +2 item bonus(or w/e you can scrounge at character creation), instead of the H.S. boosting armor in your DB build.  While limited in it's use, it is alright due to the KAM utility power.

The power point lose is definately a big blow though, and I am not sure of ways to gain PP's back.  You should be set for 2 rounds I hope, depending on your choices.  And the 24th level feature lets you gain back PP reasonable reliably for the rounds afterwards, at least enough to continue augmenting your LR.

I'd consider Dispater's Iron Discipline and Secrets of Belial (Ethereal Sidestep) pretty important to counteract the loss of the Topaz Crusader immunities. YMMV though.

The L24 does help the PP issue. My biggest issue of all is the loss to defenses, which Agile Armor doesn't really come close to covering. It's a very good variant, possibly better depending on your party configuration...but most of the time, I think Topaz Crusader comes out ahead, since he'll be taking a lot of attacks.


I added a Pure Defender variant that uses the Mithral Arm PP - just for you Tongue Out


I added a Pure Defender variant that uses the Mithral Arm PP - just for you 



hahaha is your build, you dont have to.

but looks better than the original :P
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
Have you thought about hybrid Fighter instead of Paladin?  Rapid Combat Challenge stacks very well with Lightning Rush and Heavy Blade Opportunity.  Still works obscenely well with Kulkor Arms Master and Invincible Mind.  With Focused Rampage your NOVA punishment would be something like 13 attacks (brutal barrage as basic attack for your opp. attack, your combat challenge, your kulkor free basic attack and oh yeah Lightning Rush, bonus can augment all those for free from Invincible Mind).
Have you thought about hybrid Fighter instead of Paladin?  Rapid Combat Challenge stacks very well with Lightning Rush and Heavy Blade Opportunity.  Still works obscenely well with Kulkor Arms Master and Invincible Mind.  With Focused Rampage your NOVA punishment would be something like 13 attacks (brutal barrage as basic attack for your opp. attack, your combat challenge, your kulkor free basic attack and oh yeah Lightning Rush, bonus can augment all those for free from Invincible Mind).


That's a pretty sweet daily nova, but my goal here is a more practically optimized build. Paladins have a reasonably easy time multi-marking on a large scale, and their punishment stacks with Lightning Rush at all tiers, and can be used against multiple opponents in the same round. A number of builds create a more vicious catch-22, but generally only against one target at a time.

Also, the stats work out better, since you get two high NADs and Cha is a secondary for Battleminds. Virtuous Strike is a much better MBA than the built-in one, especially with Power of Sun. Topaz Crusader helps you survive the focus-fire that this build is trying to draw. You might be able to build a Battlemind|Fighter that's better than this build, but it wouldn't be all that similar to the build here.
One could theoretically take the right power swap feats to retain your "essence" but I see what you mean.  This is a very nice defender build.
Do you see what happen?

I told you to not use KAM... But you didnt listen to me. Now you wasted lot of time and you will have to update the build with Mithral arm :P

Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
Do you see what happen?

I told you to not use KAM... But you didnt listen to me. Now you wasted lot of time and you will have to update the build with Mithral arm :P



Haha, yeah, I thought I had more than 2 weeks with it though...*sigh*. I was also hoping that if they ever did get around to a KAM errata, that it would leave the basic concept intact (if Smite the Fallen required a KAM weapon and took a -2 penalty to the MBA's attack roll and only dealt half damage on a hit, I would still use it...but not with the current nerf).

Anyway, build's been updated, and I'm pretty happy with it now that I've realized Mithral Arm also opens up the ability to get 3 battlemind at-wills. Curious what you think. The biggest changes are the PP, the addition of Brilliant Recovery, and the addition of the Keep Them Close + World Serpent's Grasp combo...but I made a number of smaller optimizations too to eliminate weaknesses.
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