What Themes Do You Want to See?

Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.

Here's everything I could think of:

Commoner


Drifter


Knight


Merchant


Noble


Soldier


Scholar


Scoundrel (and/or criminal)


Smith


Wilderness type person


Hybrid themes?


That's assuming planetouched and undead are races or subraces or whatever. Should they be themes instead? I don't want to not be able to have a Tiefling Scholar Wizard, or a Vampire Noble Rogue (those options probably wouldn't be core, but still).
Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.

Here's everything I could think of:

Commoner


Drifter


Knight


Merchant


Noble


Soldier


Scholar


Scoundrel (and/or criminal)


Smith


Wilderness type person


Hybrid themes?


That's assuming planetouched and undead are races or subraces or whatever. Should they be themes instead? I don't want to not be able to have a Tiefling Scholar Wizard, or a Vampire Noble Rogue (those options probably wouldn't be core, but still).

I could imagine an Escaped Convict or Jaoler or even a Musician
Yay on making outsider/elemental/undead template a theme.

My turn:

Outcast/Outlaw
Mounted Nomad
Pixie/Thumbling
Cultist
Bonded servant
Therianthrope 
Urchin
Beggar
Gladiator
Mystic
Pirate/Sailor
Beast Master/Animal Tamer
Circus/Street Performer
Alchemist
Scientist/Inventor
Herald
I just hope they have plenty of normal themes before getting into crazy ones. Sometimes coming from simple roots is all u need.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />my list would be:

Monk (as in, lived in a monastary)

Scholar

Alchemist

Swashbuckler

Performer

Knight

Brigand/outlaw

Sheriff

Hunter/trapper/something along those lines

Swindler/conman

were-critter

Priest



And most of these would have class features/powers/spells that you could choose instead of your those granted by your class, on top of the normal theme stuff, allowing you to focus more than normal on the importance of your theme to your character.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.



So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?


Color me flattered.

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.



So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?



The original intent was to give some extra omph to Dark Sun characters.  They give a smattering of things:  Commonly an encounter power (which is usually not as good as a common encounter power, but better than an at-will) plus some other bonuses at first level.  Sometimes, like in the case of the Fey Beast Tamer or Alchemist themes, they instead give things like a useful pet or a feat for free plus augmentations.

Also, they have powers that can be taken in place of common class utilities, giving more variance to a character's overall build.

Some themes are more about power, while others are very much roleplaying thematic, such as the scholar theme, which gives more skill training and languages in knowledge skills as you level up.

They are varied and different, and give another layer upon which to create a unique character.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]

So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?



They're basically the heroic tier analogues of paragon paths. Most give you an encounter power and a couple of neat little bonuses to start. As you level, they also give you a couple of other features, often bonuses to skills or enhancements to the theme power or theme feature you already have. Several odd themes give at will, or even daily powers from the start. Several even give you a summon or companion.

Of particular note, you can also swap class utility powers of certain levels for one of several theme utility powers tied to your theme. The Dark Sun themes are unlike other themes in that they also have encounter and daily powers to swap out as well, which scale depending on your level.

Here's a good example of what themes look like:

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/excer...

EDI Ninja'd. Man do I get distracted easily.




So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?



They're basically the heroic tier analogues of paragon paths. Most give you an encounter power and a couple of neat little bonuses to start. As you level, they also give you a couple of other features, often bonuses to skills or enhancements to the theme power or theme feature you already have. Several odd themes give at will, or even daily powers from the start. Several even give you a summon or companion.

Of particular note, you can also swap class utility powers of certain levels for one of several theme utility powers tied to your theme. The Dark Sun themes are unlike other themes in that they also have encounter and daily powers to swap out as well, which scale depending on your level.

Here's a good example of what themes look like:

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/excer...

EDI Ninja'd. Man do I get distracted easily.






One even gives you access to wizard utlity spells in place of your own utilities without needing to multiclass.

Ok, so what I'm getting from this is that they're kits, more or less. That's cool. I would think a starting number of 2 per class would be good, and then a few that can be considered cross-class or universalist choices. Local Hero used to be very popular kit with zero-to-hero type fighters and rangers, maybe they could do something with it.
Color me flattered.

LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

Show
Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

No, themes are generally applicable to any class, while a small number are race restricted.
They are loosely like kits though, they empower well...themetic characters.

For instance, a monastary shouldn't exclude fighters just because fighters are devote enough to be called Paladins/Clerics/Whatever.  Soo, a monastic fighter still has some overlap with clerics, yet is still defined mostly by skill at arms and not following a specific god. 
For example, there's a theme called the Knight Hopitalier that is open to any class that would like a healing power.  A paladin could take it to augment their lay on hands ability, while a fighter could take it to show an inate talent with healing.  There's themes for Samurai, Wizard Aprentices, etc.  but only a short few are restricted in some way.  Most are open and free for general use.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Ah, so that's what themes are. They sound like a great idea.
Ah, so that's what themes are. They sound like a great idea.



Yeah. They're one of the best ideas introduced into 4e in a while. Unforutantely, they laid off the man who created them this past Christmas.
I would like to see a set themes for both where and status of birth.

Like
Desert, Forest, Mountains, Urban
and
Royal, Noble, Chilvarlic, Peasent 
THose are bit broad, I mean the desert environs had like 3-4 themes from darksun.

And the nobility theme could be rather culture dependent. I mean Darksun had a theme specifically for "Noble getting off his fat dead butt", that was a psionic theme, not appropriate for say the latest ir' Morgrave heir to attend the university in Sharn.
I was just pondering... would "sub-themes" have any mechanical effect, or just be for flavor?

For example, if 'Soldier' is a theme, its sub-themes might be things like 'Infantry', 'Cavalry', 'Commander/Tactician', and so on. 'Scholar' (or, alternately, 'Academic') could have sub-themes of 'Experimenter', 'Theorist', and 'Professor'.

Would these just be for flavor, or would they make sense as something mechanically relevant? I could imagine each of them giving different benefits. For example, 'Experimenter' might give a way of connecting knowledge checks with the use of other skills; 'Theorist' could allow for synergy between knowledge skills; 'Professor' might allow you to grant allies temporary skill ranks/proficiencies in skills you have.

Of course, these could always be distinct themes in and of themselves.
Distinct themes would be my inclination.
I was just pondering... would "sub-themes" have any mechanical effect, or just be for flavor?

For example, if 'Soldier' is a theme, its sub-themes might be things like 'Infantry', 'Cavalry', 'Commander/Tactician', and so on. 'Scholar' (or, alternately, 'Academic') could have sub-themes of 'Experimenter', 'Theorist', and 'Professor'.

Would these just be for flavor, or would they make sense as something mechanically relevant? I could imagine each of them giving different benefits. For example, 'Experimenter' might give a way of connecting knowledge checks with the use of other skills; 'Theorist' could allow for synergy between knowledge skills; 'Professor' might allow you to grant allies temporary skill ranks/proficiencies in skills you have.

Of course, these could always be distinct themes in and of themselves.



Sub themes could in fact simply be chosen features of a theme.  For example, picking a Soldier theme, and then picking one of the following features: Infantry, Cavalry, etc.  It would give themes a bit more character granularity, and they could always have a "default" feature pre-picked for those who don't want to screw with picking their feature.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Ah, so that's what themes are. They sound like a great idea.



Yeah. They're one of the best ideas introduced into 4e in a while. Unforutantely, they laid off the man who created them this past Christmas.



WHich, in turn, is generally considered to have been a bad idea.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Who was laid off? 

Actually i love the idea of themes. I think they are somehow connected to the 2e kits and to the careers of Warhammer FRPG.

These months i am for a low magic, gritty and "realistic" mood.

I would love to have themes for various near real life proffesions. So except for commoner/noble i would like themes for merchants, swindlers, messengers, sailors, spies, prostitutes, couchers, blacksmithers/carpenters/leather workers (proffesion type themes), musicians, (city) guards, hunter, etc etc...

However, because i don't think all these will gonna be represented, the thing that i would like most is to make easy rules for creating themes.  
Who was laid off? 

 



Rich Baker.
Who was laid off? 

 



Rich Baker.



Isn't the one who co-designed Birthright and World Building Guidebook(WBG) from 2e??? Both works still are very influential in my games! Actually my new campaign setting was build with the help of WBG and has way too much Birthright fluff in there. Too pity was laid off
Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.



So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?






they are 4e's version of kits. That's what I got out of it.
Options are Liberating
Themes represent what your character was before becoming an adventurer. Apparently these will be in core in D&DN.

What themes do you absolutely have to have in core? What themes do you want to see, but in a later book? Something like Sailor would probably belong in a sea-based adventure setting, for example.



So, question, I've never tinkered with themes - how much mechanical impact do they have on a character? How do they work, exactly? Are they like the backgrounds in some of the 4th edition books, or are they that plus some?






they are 4e's version of kits. That's what I got out of it.



More like Herioc Tier Paragon paths or Epic Destinies but with one major differance, officially you can retrain them.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

i would like to see a theme for a collage/school wizard.
(they might have sub choices black,red and white)

state sanctioned priest.
marridges and the like performed by the character are legaly binding.
 
The large majority of 4E themes have no prerequisites, and are designed to be usable by any class - e.g. if they have any powers that use attributes, those powers use "primary attribute" rather than "strength".

Here's one vote that this is a good thing which should be continued.

This doesn't mean there can't be class- or race-specific themes; just that they shouldn't be the norm.

That is, unless themes are siloed and some of the silos are used for Hybrid Talent, Multiclass, or Class Feature Options. THOSE themes, obviously, should be class-specific.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I'd like to see a martial artist theme.  I don't want to be shoehorned into the monk class just because I want to play a character who fights like Bruce Lee or Jet Li.

I definitely also want a swasbuckler theme.  I'm not a heavy armor type person.  I like fighters and rangers and other melee characters who wear little or no armor but defend themselves through sheer combat prowess.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.




they are 4e's version of kits. That's what I got out of it.



More like Herioc Tier Paragon paths or Epic Destinies but with one major differance, officially you can retrain them.




I don't know what any of that means. Can you explain in AD&D terms?
Options are Liberating
I think some archetypes ought be a complete core class, or sub-classes with special gameplay or game mechanics.

Some presige classes from the complete arcane could be good spellcaster themes, but some archetypes like ninja, samurai, gladiator (from Arthas) or knight oughtn´t be only a theme.   



"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Here's what I'm getting from WotC, and I don't really like it.
Themes will be a stand in for classes in other PHBs other than one, like the avenger is the divine assassin, rouge, etc., the invoker is divine wizard, warden is primal fighter, so you would take the primal gaurdian theme for a fighter to get the feel of the warden. Also, because of the positive responsive to kits, kits might be what I jusr described, and themes would be simmilar to what has been descrided here. I could be wrong.
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Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.



they are 4e's version of kits. That's what I got out of it.



More like Herioc Tier Paragon paths or Epic Destinies but with one major differance, officially you can retrain them.




I don't know what any of that means. Can you explain in AD&D terms?



It's similar to class kits.
I would like to see a "self-forged" style theme, IE gain a mechanical arm/leg. It would work well for Ebberon and would be pretty flavorful.



they are 4e's version of kits. That's what I got out of it.



More like Herioc Tier Paragon paths or Epic Destinies but with one major differance, officially you can retrain them.




I don't know what any of that means. Can you explain in AD&D terms?



AD&D didn't really have anything comparable to Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies, so ... not really.
Short version (well, short-ish); at Level 11 you get a Paragon Path; this doesn't replace your class, it exists alongside it as sort of an 'add-on'.  At level 21, you get an Epic Destiny, same deal.  You're still, say, a cleric, but you're also a Divine Oracle (PP) and Chosen Of Whoever (ED).

A theme is basically an 'add-on' that you apply at 1st level.  Unlike Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, you can change your theme when you level up via the retraining rules.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'd like to see a martial artist theme.  I don't want to be shoehorned into the monk class just because I want to play a character who fights like Bruce Lee or Jet Li.



Reflavoring is a wonderful thing.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
No a martial artist theme would be awesome if you wanna run a wuxia-ish game. That way the characters can play whatever class they want but still be appropriate to the campaign theme.

I'd like themes to exist alongside races instead of classes. Themes could represent cultures, regions, cities, and occasionally "outlooks on life". 

So instead of "Blacksmith", which should be an NPC class, (that probably isn't written up and just implied through some sort of commoner or smith class) we have themes like ...

 Roman, Parisian, Woodsman, Desert Herdsman, Thief, Exile, or Gambler.

I could even get behind the idea that people can take more than one, or even as many as they want. I say this stuff, because I favor a huge amount of simpler than 4e classes. So I wouldn't want themes to interact too much with what you class gives.

If every race gives -skill ability, minor ability, major ability.  You could say themes replace specific things regardless of race. "The gambler theme always replaces the racial skill bonus. Instead you can roll 2d20 X times a day on skill checks picking your result". Then so long as you don't have another theme trying to replace your skills you can take more than one if you want.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"


I'd like themes to exist alongside races instead of classes. Themes could represent cultures, regions, cities, and occasionally "outlooks on life". 

So instead of "Blacksmith", which should be an NPC class, (that probably isn't written up and just implied through some sort of commoner or smith class) we have themes like ...

 Roman, Parisian, Woodsman, Desert Herdsman, Thief, Exile, or Gambler.

I could even get behind the idea that people can take more than one, or even as many as they want. I say this stuff, because I favor a huge amount of simpler than 4e classes. So I wouldn't want themes to interact too much with what you class gives.

If every race gives -skill ability, minor ability, major ability.  You could say themes replace specific things regardless of race. "The gambler theme always replaces the racial skill bonus. Instead you can roll 2d20 X times a day on skill checks picking your result". Then so long as you don't have another theme trying to replace your skills you can take more than one if you want.




That is a well expressed idea.  I particularly like the themes associated with cultures and regions.

As far as some of the themes I noticed earlier, like vampires and pixies, they are fine, but I do have a gripe with them: They interfere directly with the world and/or party chemistry if people are actually playing their characters.  I see this probably because I'm old school.  But, a traditional paladin and a vampire should not exist side by side and fight with one another without some sort of consequence.  This is kind of the WOW generation of thinking.  We're all here to just kill things and get loot rather than play our characters.  That may seem a bit harsh and perhaps jaded, but it appears true when I contrast older games I've played to the ones now.

So if they do decide to add all the "oddies" I would hope they do so with some logical context.  I mean, it seems silly to have a 10th level fighter sit there and kill a thousand orcs in his life and then suddenly be fighting next to one.  And yes, you could work it in via story (I have), but it should be rare - not commonplace.
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