He-Man and Spin

He-Man is on Netflix. I remember He-Man as being the most awesome thing ever when I was a kid. I tried watching it with my kids and it was awful and they were bored.

Sometimes the fond memories of things past should remain fond memories. D&D rules might be no different.

Please try to stay true to developing a quality game and don't try to exploit anachronism in a phony attempt to cater to a market segment.

I'm cautiously looking forward to see what comes out of all this.
He-Man is on Netflix. I remember He-Man as being the most awesome thing ever when I was a kid. I tried watching it with my kids and it was awful and they were bored.


I had the same experience with He-Man, Transformers, and GI Joe. I wanted to show my kid how they "really" were, not the movie remakes. Yeah, they sucked.

Sometimes nostalgia strongly tints our view of things. Much like how much I missed 2e until I flipped through some of my old books and realized what a giant mess the system was.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Other times the past lives up to the memories. We are currently having a blast with 1e Ad&d
I tried to read the D and D basic red book a couple years ago, because I was thinking of running it again.

It was un readable.

He-Man was the bomb! And Transformers are on the HuB along with GI Joe. The kids watch it every night! The kids watch Transformers, GI Joe, and then turn off the TV instead of watching the new computerized Transformers.
Before this gets into a nostalgia war...


Tastes and preferences are subjective.  Each of us has different experiences and different ideas about what we enjoy and what is fun.

As an example, I enjoy the original Transformers animated series as much now as I did when I was a kid.  I also still enjoy playing the BECMI version of Dungeons & Dragons.


However, I also enjoy Transformers: Animated (I have not yet seen Transformers: Prime, but it looks interesting) and I enjoy playing D&D 4th Edition.  

Having a preference for any version of D&D does not invalidate having a preference for another version.  They are all D&D and they are all fun for many people.            

All around helpful simian

Content has been removed due to violations of section 3, Baiting of the Code of Conduct.

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.  
I never liked He-Man. I thought it was chauvinistic and gave the wrong impression about men to little girls.

But what about She-Ra?

And I didn't like GI Joe because, even with all of those weapons blasting, nobody ever died.

Yeah, even as a kid I thought that was strange.

And I never liked Transformers because everybody else did.

That's an...interesting...reason.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
I never liked He-Man. I thought it was chauvinistic and gave the wrong impression about men to little girls.

But what about She-Ra?


It was feministic and gave the wrong impression about women to little boys... in my opinion, of course.


And the episodes that had He-Man and She-Ra together?
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
For a long time, I used to think Super Mario 3 was the best Mario game ever. Compared to World, I remember it had much coler items, and levels, and costumes, and enemies, and (gimmick) features and stuff. Then I realized how akward the jumping physics were in that game, and just how short all the stages were. From that point forward, Super Mario World was my favorite Mario game.
The 80's Transformers were really incredible designs and a hell of a toy to have. Transformers: the Movie also made millions of little boys cry as they watched their favorite toy heroes get murdered by Megatron. Ultron Magnus sure knows how to lead the autobots into ruin.

the new films are a big pile of doggy doo and everyone's a whirling pile of scrap metal 'cause it began as CG with no attachment to physical reality... but the toys are solid, they're all better designs than in the movie 'cause they actually had to transform without CG magic. They've got more titanic statures, with smaller heads and broad, solid chests.

The movie designs got better as the films went on though, Movie 3 optimus is a lot more solid than movie 1.



For a long time, I used to think Super Mario 3 was the best Mario game ever. Compared to World, I remember it had much coler items, and levels, and costumes, and enemies, and (gimmick) features and stuff. Then I realized how akward the jumping physics were in that game, and just how short all the stages were. From that point forward, Super Mario World was my favorite Mario game.


Now, I like the analogy suggested here.

I too grew up loving Super Mario 3.  I never had a SNES so I couldn't tell you about World, but what I can tell you is that when New Super Mario Bros. Wii came out, I was all after it because of the Nostalgia -- It was 2d, it had the koopalings, there was an item stash and "wandering monsters" (enemy roads) it didn't pretend to need a plot other than peach being randomly kidnapped for you to jump on goomba heads.  Man, even the overworld map was a blast from my favorite slice of past.  I played NSMBW and I loved it.

Then, I went back, I blew the dust out of my NES, and I sat down to play Super Mario 3.  And I noticed the awkward jumping physics, and the shortness of stages, I noticed all the flaws that it had and the new one, that initially sold me on being just like it, had quietly fixed in the background.  NSMBW had a paint job to match Mario 3, and in some ways it had the spirit... but under the hood there was a new system.  You still stomped goombas, and kicked shells.  It still pressed all the nostalgia buttons.  But under the hood it was something different and better.

I guess that's what I'm hoping next will be like: when I sit down and play it, it will be this thing that feels like I *remember* old editions feeling, that really is as good as the former stuff is when viewed through the rose colored glasses of nostalgia.

That would be just awesome.

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For a long time, I used to think Super Mario 3 was the best Mario game ever. Compared to World, I remember it had much coler items, and levels, and costumes, and enemies, and (gimmick) features and stuff. Then I realized how akward the jumping physics were in that game, and just how short all the stages were. From that point forward, Super Mario World was my favorite Mario game.


Now, I like the analogy suggested here.

I too grew up loving Super Mario 3.  I never had a SNES so I couldn't tell you about World, but what I can tell you is that when New Super Mario Bros. Wii came out, I was all after it because of the Nostalgia -- It was 2d, it had the koopalings, there was an item stash and "wandering monsters" (enemy roads) it didn't pretend to need a plot other than peach being randomly kidnapped for you to jump on goomba heads.  Man, even the overworld map was a blast from my favorite slice of past.  I played NSMBW and I loved it.

Then, I went back, I blew the dust out of my NES, and I sat down to play Super Mario 3.  And I noticed the awkward jumping physics, and the shortness of stages, I noticed all the flaws that it had and the new one, that initially sold me on being just like it, had quietly fixed in the background.  NSMBW had a paint job to match Mario 3, and in some ways it had the spirit... but under the hood there was a new system.  You still stomped goombas, and kicked shells.  It still pressed all the nostalgia buttons.  But under the hood it was something different and better.

I guess that's what I'm hoping next will be like: when I sit down and play it, it will be this thing that feels like I *remember* old editions feeling, that really is as good as the former stuff is when viewed through the rose colored glasses of nostalgia.

That would be just awesome.



This made me smile, I will admit.  It's like playing New SMB on the DS; it reminds me of the old SMB games, but it's better.

Kind of like the best praise I can give Twilight Princess (Gamecube version, not Wii, because Link is supposed to be left-handed, goddammit) is, "it's the best Zelda game I've played since "A Link to the Past". 

The theme to that game's credits still makes me cry to this day.

Though I suppose for me, it's strange, because besides 4th, the only experience I've had with D&D is the video games, and the ones I actually enjoyed the most were Demon Stone and Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance.  So perhaps that's where my nostalgia would kick in.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
i think what we need is a stable platform upon which to build upon with the wisdom we've garnered since the days of Skeletor and Dolph Lundgren. Basically, we have to figure out what about Old D&D made us comfortable, but try to remember the stuff about it we didn't like and wanted to change.

Then we can look at later editions, and see where newer people found stability, and uncertainty. I had an old equation about game design theory:

The more complex a game, the less likely people will play it, but the longer they will stick with it
The more simple a game, the more people will play it, but the shorter the run

As much as people dislike Old D&D systems like BECMI and grognard AD&D, they lasted longer than any other. Something is very telling about Pathfinder too. People felt there was more to be accomplished with the 3e/3.5e, so pathfinder succeeded. 4e had a shorter run, but also in some ways, was more simplistic. It advertised simplicity and a new, community centered way of playing, and many new people liked it, as well as some others looking for a change of pace. Yet it was designed for less lengthy play. When I asked about 210 sessions from level 1-30+, people balked at the idea of spending years playing one character or campaign.

I've seen reruns of thunder cats and transformers, and even Jem and the Starlights. Honestly, some of these shows are smart even today, and others more silly. My wife and I watch some of these reruns from time to time since she missed so many of them being from another Continent, and is often shocked at the lessons hidden within. Aesops fables had stories of conflict, but also lessons built in. I miss stories with lessons.
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One of my favorite episodes of the original Transformers is The Golden Lagoon.  It's a great little morality play on the tragedy of war.

Here's the episode in three parts

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_8foTnJkIo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAAoz515FA8&feat...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhMGUWrdt8U&feat...

The God Gambit was also excellent.
Other times the past lives up to the memories. We are currently having a blast with 1e Ad&d



This.

It's not nostalgia that keeps us playing pre-3rd. We've tried them all, but we PREFER the older systems.


What these guys said.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

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I think that Howard's Conan stories can proudly hang with any modern fantasy lit.

I loved me some Dukes of Hazzard as a kid; but having watched some as an adult, they are terrible.

Star Wars A New Hope still tickles my gizzard.

What were once funny Friends episodes now seem dated.

Asimov's Foundation series is still a spectacular read.

Galaga was my favorite arcade game back when arcades existed.  It sucks now.

Everyone should watch Warren Beatty in Bonnie and Clyde.  Awesomeness.

Muppet Babies, you are no Fineas and Pherb.

Want a solid foundation for understanding economics?  Read Smith's Wealth of Nations.

Yes, I agree that He Man is awful.

My kids laugh their heads off at Tom and Jerry cartoons that were made before I was even born.

Conclusion.  Not everything that is old rests purely on nostalgia.  Conversely, some things that I like in my mind due to nostalgia are terrible when I revisit them.  Hence, an argument against nostalgia is a hollow argument.  Intellectual properties can be judged on their own merit without worrying whether nostalgia plays a part or not.
For the most part, I'm a pretty simple, straight-forward kinda guy.  I like to be able to sit back and not over-think things.  Star Wars was/is great (blasters and star fighters, and it's easy to tell the good guys from the bad).  James Bond in the 80s-90s was awesome (beautiful women, big explosions, car chases).  I like buddy cop movies of all kinds (Alien Nation, Lethal Weapon, Turner & Hooch even).

I never liked the X-Files.  All those aliens and conspiracies, too much thinking, and David Duchovny is not funny.  All I really wanted was to see Agent Scully in a bikini, just once ;).

Some things have changed as I've gotten older.  Back in the day, I enjoyed the Thundercats.  Tried to watch 'em on DVD recently and didn't get through a single episode.  The 2011 series has been really fun though.  As a kid, I thought Back to the Future was pretty cool; as an adult, I can't get into the movies    . . . at all.

= = =

The one thing that tickles my nostalgia bone, every time, is D&D.  It's a pretty straight-forward game ('kill monsters and take their stuff') but at the same time it can be complex with worlds of make-believe to imagine and explore.  Just the right balance for me ;).  D&D has been a longtime hobby, nothing else even comes close.

I just wish I had the time and energy to invest in the game, like I did when I was younger.  I stick to classes I'm most familiar with for instance, so that play is smooth as possible.  I've thought about playing a monk but that's about it.  It seems so 'hard' now to ask questions at the table or to even dig into a class on my own (without actually playing it).  I've gotten more than a little complacent with age I guess.
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The 80's Transformers were really incredible designs and a hell of a toy to have. Transformers: the Movie also made millions of little boys cry as they watched their favorite toy heroes get murdered by Megatron. Ultron Magnus sure knows how to lead the autobots into ruin.

the new films are a big pile of doggy doo and everyone's a whirling pile of scrap metal 'cause it began as CG with no attachment to physical reality... but the toys are solid, they're all better designs than in the movie 'cause they actually had to transform without CG magic. They've got more titanic statures, with smaller heads and broad, solid chests.

The movie designs got better as the films went on though, Movie 3 optimus is a lot more solid than movie 1.






Yeah, but Hot Rod opening the matrix and turning into Rodimus Prime was such an awesome scene. Great cast of voices, great soundtrack. Overall awesome movie. Michael Bay should be ashamed of himself. Peter Cullen as Optimus is really nice, but the movies themselves are bleh. Using The Touch at some point in the first film would have at least been a nice show of respect for what he was doing. Megatron is such a small part in them, too.

Ok... I've travelled way too far into nerdville now. Gonna go get breakfast and look for ways to restore my man card. :P

Really excited about going to see John Carter. Maybe a little off-topic for the whole He-man, nostalgia debate- but one of the most iconic characters in our D&D homebrewed world is named Tardos Mors. 
...

Yes, I agree that He Man is awful.

My kids laugh their heads off at Tom and Jerry cartoons that were made before I was even born.

Conclusion.  Not everything that is old rests purely on nostalgia.  Conversely, some things that I like in my mind due to nostalgia are terrible when I revisit them.  Hence, an argument against nostalgia is a hollow argument.  Intellectual properties can be judged on their own merit without worrying whether nostalgia plays a part or not.

He-Man was always awful, but that didn't mean it wasn't awesome.  That's how I feel about every edition of D&D, it's D&D and that'll always be awesome.

Aside, I think if your (or my) kids watched a better than average episode of He-Man and then walked into the playroom where your peak collection of He-Man toys was fully assembled with all the pieces in some about to throw down good v evil battle in front of castle grayskull set up.  If you asked them what they thought of that He-Man episode a couple hours later they'd say it was awesome. 



Yeah, but Hot Rod opening the matrix and turning into Rodimus Prime was such an awesome scene. Great cast of voices, great soundtrack. Overall awesome movie. Michael Bay should be ashamed of himself. Peter Cullen as Optimus is really nice, but the movies themselves are bleh. Using The Touch at some point in the first film would have at least been a nice show of respect for what he was doing. Megatron is such a small part in them, too.

Ok... I've travelled way too far into nerdville now. Gonna go get breakfast and look for ways to restore my man card. :P



This man has good taste.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

It was really cool to go back through this thread and see the different points of view on nostalgia.

I started the game with 1E really. I was 14 and my first DM thought 2E wasn't that great. As we played we continued to add components of 2E but the most frequently used books were the PHB and the Unearthed Arcana.

I know where all those books are though if I ever wanted to revisit the previous editions again.

I have a couple of questions.

What is it that OSRIC, 1E, or 2E enthusiasts feel that they will get from a new edition that they can't just get from what's already out there?

How subtle of a change does it have to be for it to move past the line of the product having a 1E/2E feel into being completely uninteresting to you?
First, I love OSRIC. It has made me excited about... well, strangely D&D again. I have even bought old AD&D books to add to my collection and use with OSRIC.

Why am I interested in 5e? Because I have hope that it will bring back the excitement that I found in 1e and 2e. The excitement that I personally did not feel (and this is only my opinion) in 4e.

So I am trying to be positive and am looking forward to a new and exciting version of the game. If I do not like it, OSRIC and 1e are waiting for me.  
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