Storm Troopers, really so... weak? ***SPOILER FREE*** XD

Greetings!

I have a question about Imperial ST. I know that in the old 4,5 and 6 episodes they doesn't seem a really hard match no anyone. Always miss, weak armor against ewok stones... XD

I have readed a few info about them via books, novels and wookiepedia. Yes, I know that they are elite of the Empire, better than the grey ones from the army with one of the best armors among the galaxy, but... does this show its potential on theyr NPC stats?

In book and other sources they are deadly soldiers, far away from clones, ARC troopers or the 501, but awesome , or at least more than the "one hit KO" troops that appears on the old movies.

Any idea or comment about that? Anyone uses a different version of ST?

Thanks! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
The basic NH4 Stormtrooper is a useful package.  At low levels it armor and Reflex Defense 16 make it a tough nut to crack.  At higher level the feat that allow them to automatically aid another on attack can keep them hitting.  They also work in squads (CWCG) and in all honesty based on most of the evidence you see they really were NOT all that strong.

Now while I like the basic Stormtroopers I do have stronger, specialized troopers for other uses although I generally don't increase the CL all that much if possible.  Perhaps the strongest Stormtrooper I'd consider using "in mass" would be a very basic Elite Trooper build that is NH8/Soldier1/EliteTrooper1.  These guys are only CL4 but have a very good BAB and Elite Trooper lets them take a hit without going down immediately.
 
Ok so, one more question. I you would't have to consider a balance between ST and players, you will consider that this NH 4 troopers are good enough to match with the stories about them (not the old movies XD) and consider them as the true elite soldiers from the Galactic Empire?

Thank you! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Compared to the average citizen, the Storm Troopers ARE elite! 4 whole levels, a decent attack bonus, and armor to boot. Stormtroopers have no trouble messing up jawas, but bring them into a forest full of stealthy, trained Ewok hunters, they might get their butts kicked. 
Now the thing is that most troopers aren't heroes, plain and simple. You put your average ST up against your average hero, and watch the hero get the drop on the ST. This is because it makes a good story! 
There are, of course, exceptions. Timothy Zahn's more recent writings are about the Hand of Judgement, a group of particularly exceptional troopers. Not necessarily because of their skills, though they are indeed skilled, but because of their courage. They have heroic hearts, and that's why it's fun to read hundreds of pages about their exploits.
Of course that still doesn't keep a level 20 Jedi Master from being able to lop some heads off when necessary, but you get the idea, yes? 
I never listen to the Order 66 Podcast. Winner of You Build the Character #27 - Cad Bane
Ok so, one more question. I you would't have to consider a balance between ST and players, you will consider that this NH 4 troopers are good enough to match with the stories about them (not the old movies XD) and consider them as the true elite soldiers from the Galactic Empire? 

I may reserve the term "true elite soldier" for more veteran (and thus higher leveled) versions of the Stormtrooper but to what is likely the average galactic citizen the Stormtrooper is pretty tough.

Now while I consider the basic CL 1 Stormtrooper to be fine I will often use the CL 2 versions alongside them and when more experienced troops would be encountered.  To make things more interesting I'd also consider throwing in Stormtrooper Officer/Elite types with groups of lower level troopers but don't make them any different visually.  Your players my cry "FOUL" if they encounter a group of troopers where one is actually a lot better then the others but you don't tell them which one it is, and if they somehow get lucky and drop it immediately you can often just pass those stats off to a different trooper.
Interesting.

Maybe I haven't got the proper "hero concept" that Saga wants to give us.

From my point of view a level 1 hero cannot face a "elite army and well trained soldier of the galactic empire".

"Hero" its more a "mental state" and a "destiny fact" than skills or level fact. Maybe I doesn't understood the "Saga idea".

In our game sessions we use to gave a different focus to characters, they really are like normal people with a incredible spirit that let them made awesome things.

A hero begins with all 10 at stats the same way a commoner, but the main difference its character concept. That the hero tries to stop the "bad guy from the empire" punishing an innocent alien child and the commoner just simple "walks without do anything".

After a few heroic things "our" hero get awesome stats and becomes a trully galactic hero.

So, I like the concept that in his/her "early days" a new "hero" fears confront a single stormstrooper doing a "hand by hand" fight.

Not sure if I expressed properly my point of view.

And thanks again for your help and points of view ;) 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Interesting.

Maybe I haven't got the proper "hero concept" that Saga wants to give us.

From my point of view a level 1 hero cannot face a "elite army and well trained soldier of the galactic empire".

"Hero" its more a "mental state" and a "destiny fact" than skills or level fact. Maybe I doesn't understood the "Saga idea".

In our game sessions we use to gave a different focus to characters, they really are like normal people with a incredible spirit that let them made awesome things.

A hero begins with all 10 at stats the same way a commoner, but the main difference its character concept. That the hero tries to stop the "bad guy from the empire" punishing an innocent alien child and the commoner just simple "walks without do anything".

After a few heroic things "our" hero get awesome stats and becomes a trully galactic hero.

So, I like the concept that in his/her "early days" a new "hero" fears confront a single stormstrooper doing a "hand by hand" fight.

Not sure if I expressed properly my point of view.

And thanks again for your help and points of view ;) 





I really like this view, a lot!!!

I find inspiration in this, my friend, Thank you :D
You are welcome! {#emotions_dlg.smile}

I'm glad to hear that, and I hope that this helps you and other people too. As always say, its only my personal "point of view", but, I like it :P

Because of this point of view we adapted our Saga games to a more accurated and flexible leveling and character developement, where we simlply exchange/eliminate classes and level system and use the Mutants & Mastermind d20 systems to level/build up chars (look at my signature). 

We still use Saga system for the rest. 

I have to say that we are creating a new (from zero) SW 100% system inspired on series/movies that reflects the pure effect of SW world.

Not balanced, not op, just SW. That's the real reason about the ST question. I would like to know so many visions as I can about ST stats and how they are represented un game systems.

Again my personal point of view about "hero definition" comes here to play.

Well, thanks again ;) 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Interesting.

Maybe I haven't got the proper "hero concept" that Saga wants to give us.
Show


From my point of view a level 1 hero cannot face a "elite army and well trained soldier of the galactic empire".

"Hero" its more a "mental state" and a "destiny fact" than skills or level fact. Maybe I doesn't understood the "Saga idea".

In our game sessions we use to gave a different focus to characters, they really are like normal people with a incredible spirit that let them made awesome things.

A hero begins with all 10 at stats the same way a commoner, but the main difference its character concept. That the hero tries to stop the "bad guy from the empire" punishing an innocent alien child and the commoner just simple "walks without do anything".

After a few heroic things "our" hero get awesome stats and becomes a trully galactic hero.

So, I like the concept that in his/her "early days" a new "hero" fears confront a single stormstrooper doing a "hand by hand" fight.
Not sure if I expressed properly my point of view.

And thanks again for your help and points of view ;) 

That's an eye openning bit of information.

Forgive my simplification but it seems to me like you're having characters start with the non-heroic class (SECR 277-278) and having them earn the right to become heroes.  It's an interesting idea that could work for some people.  I see it as having everyone start in Non-heroic but after a level or three they can "trade in" all those levels and rebuild as a first level heroic character.  Most of the time an NH2 or NH3 should easy convert into the first level of a heroic class; any lost BAB or skill modifier can usually be made up for with the heroic stats.  I'll just note here that the "average" stats are 10.5 and not 10 which often translates to 11x3,10x3 or a 13,12,11,10,9,8 array; the nonheroic character should get PB 15 for stats which is far below the PB 25 that the book gives heroes.  Now all of this is just my attempt to put what I see in SAGA game terms.

To your character with NH1 as its class a basic Stormtrooper IS going to be something to fear.  If he shoots at you there is a very good chance you'll die; +4 attack vs REF 10 hits 75% of the time and the average damage of a 3d8 rifle is far more then your hitpoints and likely more then your Damage Threshold.  If you shoot back you're likely going to have a hard time hitting (+0 BAB vs REF 16 means hitting just 25% of the time) and while average pistol damage may drop a Stormtrooper (ave 3d6 = 10.5 > 10 hitpoints) it doesn't "kill" the Stormtrooper because you don't overcome its DT.


Now just one more thing that is almost completely unrelated: what does the ;) represent?  I'm sorry if I'm being sensitive about this but my posts haven't been completely supportive and in previous threads (not by you) I've been called something akin to a destroyer of creativity.  Getting thanked with a smile is certainly nice but getting thanked with a wink triggers a possible sarcasm alarm.
I love your "trade in" idea concept. With old d20 we use a similiar method. I'm aware that to a lot of people won't like the idea I have about "hero concept", thay they prefer "a rambo-like-type" character from the beginning. 

Again your are true with your explanation comparing the ST againt de level 1 NH. Above a 75% of possibilities to being killed by a ST. Thats the idea I wanted to share with people/players.

I want to them see (at the beginning) a ST as a possible death and a "I have to hide or run away" more than a "look! 35x3 XP Squad and a 600x3 credits utility belt and cool light armor" XDD

And about ";)" it wasn't my intention sorry. I simply want to add a "gentle" smile on my posts, I use to use them. Sorry if it bother you, I will consider next time I refer to you. And thanks Steven for all the good tips you always use to give on my posts.

I consider myself a "veteran" from RPG, not an expert or a "master of the universe". Also I have a big lack of knowledges about SW universe (I haven't read so much books) so I deeply thank your opinions and suggestions (and from the other ones too).

I love to learn new things and new points of view. Experience and diversity uses to make use wiser.

So thanks to you and the other people in the forum that uses to help other ones.

Take care! 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
The idea of "trading in" levels is one I've used for a few things.  I suggest doing that with your PCs if they start in non-heroic because, to put things mildly, the non-heroic class sucks.  Starting in NH means PB 15 for stats (I use PB 28 for heroes) and no triple/max hit points.  The open starting feat selection has some merit but a relatively limited selection although WP (Advanced melee), WP (Heavy), and Skill Focus aren't normally options for starting in a heroic class.  With just one trained skill I'll often leave many NH NPCs with INT 8; if they need additional trained skills that is what the feat is good for.

Although I don't know if it can be found anymore I once wrote a thread showing how you can start a Sith Lord (defined as character who can use a Force Secret) at CL 7 and then move it up to CL 14 without actually changing his level.  He'd start as a NH10/SA2/SL2 and by trading NH levels for heroic levels would eventually make it to a fully heroic 14th-level character. 

One big "cheat" I used was to change the starting level into a heroic level; this provided a stat increase and more feats/trained skills.  Normally, you need three full levels of NH for a +1 CL but I figure that's only true if you start in non-heroic; when adding NH levels after a heroic first level I basically bump the NH contribution to CL by +1.  Normally a NH6/Soldier1 is CL 3 but I figure a Soldier1/NH6 is CL 4 due to all the extra things it starts with at first level.  While it is "basically" a +1 bump it is more accurate to say I value NH levels a NH2/+1CL for the first six levels of NH and then use the 3:1 ratio after that.  Looking at that Stormtrooper there is a massive difference between looking at it when starting in NH compared to starting in Soldier.

I get but the ;) normally implies some kind of hidden message or a deeper meaning.  I was just trying to figure out what I might have been missing. 
It is a matter of perception is the way I play it.  If there is a squad of stormtroopers around it usually means there are hundreds to thousands more nearby (same system).  The PCs might be able to handle an encounter with a squad or two of STs but hundreds of them? or thousands?  It helps to instill that mentality into your players early on in the game.  At higher levels my players know they should still run, because where there is one trooper there is most likely many, many more.

To drive that point home use the troopers tactics.  From watching the Clone Wars series the troopers are not dumb and can be quite effective with the right direction (the sacking of the Jedi temple for one instance).  Use Coordinated Attack and auto-fire when necessary and don't be afraid to throw wave after wave at the PCs.  That will make the players think twice about engaging STs. 
Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. Winner of the Winner of You Build the Character #34: Padme Amidala
Greetings!

Yes, I consider that option too but I will also to implement the "hero-from-zero" idea. Thanks, I like this idea, its one of the main reasons but, I mean that a lonely ST will be enough to scare a recently created player.

I will run like a crazy if a mad/corrupt police/soldier with a gun comes to me after stopped him/her to kill/attack an inocent XD 

I don't have any weapon proficeny and combat Feats... and also have REALLY bad physical stats... and... XD but even if I have Martial Arts I... sincerelly I won't confront him/her. Maybe in a future if I gain/level up enough XD

Of course, the main motivator must be "hmm... they have integrated comms right? we cannot mess with those troopers or some more will come" but I like to create some more "realistic" scenary in situations like this.

Probably to my "heroe" vision, but, I would like to create this kind of "patches". I don't care so much about difficulty and "balance". 

A level 0 baker with bakery skills that tries to confront a few bandits from stealing or hurting someone, is a hero to me... but I suggest to Mr. Baker to run a lot if ST comes XD

By the way, do you sugest any tactics, based on clone wars, that probably ST/clones will use or area-attacks and Coordinated Attack will be enough to treat them as a threat? 

Thanks Tremayne!

Steven, the post you gave me a few months ago with all your house rules still active and updated?

I saw a few of them REALLY interesting. 
Have you ever tried to smile?
57690938 wrote:
If I had to choose one word to describe you, it would be "unorthodox". Yea - that's pretty much it. Not an insult, of course. :D
Star Wars HEAVY MOD (M&M) Adaptation http://www.mediafire.com/?b2e9e176n9ck9ia
Conceptually, the Storm Troopers actually match up well with a real world example.  The Roman Legionaire.  In their time and in their element, the Roman Legions were the elite soldiers of all the ancient western world.  Nobody could stand up to them in the field.  Yet there were times when all that training and equipment would fail them.  Such as when lured into a dense forest populated by furry barbarians... hmmmm.
To err is human. To fail a Fear save is unforgivable! IMAGE(http://statcdn.worldoftanks.com/comcom_v2/uploads/signatures/wotuserbar04.jpg)
Exactly.  Because the Romans could not adopt their traditional battle formations in the Teutoburg Forest, the German barbarians were able to use guerilla tactics to whittle away at the Romans before routing them.

Nice reference to Ewoks Smile
Winner of the You Make the... Contest #9: Jedi Padawans Winner of the You Build the Character#33:  EU Bounty Hunters Winner of the You Build the Character #37:  The Empire Strikes Back Winner of the "Ultimate Dream Builds #1: The Underworld" I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.

Exactly.  Because the Romans could not adopt their traditional battle formations in the Teutoburg Forest, the German barbarians were able to use guerilla tactics to whittle away at the Romans before routing them.

Nice reference to Ewoks Smile



AHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA
I Love it