Two Weapon Fighting question (3.5E)

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Hello everyone,
I'm sorry but this is going to be about the 3rd edition rules...  Embarassed

I am confused about the 3.5E  Two Weapon Fighting rules.  Some of my players are saying it works by giving you an extra free attack with your offhand anytime.  Even if you move that turn.  

However, when I read the PHB under Full Attack, it says: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

So the way I'm reading this is that, if you want to get an attack with your offhand, you need to make a full attack by not moving (or taking a 5ft step).

Am I right on this or am I missing something?

Thanks for your help!  Laughing
No, you're right, to benefit from extra attacks you must make a full attack action.
You are correct, they need to do a full-round action, so they could use a 5 foot step at the most.
Thanks a lot guys.  Laughing
There are some specific exceptions to that (various Tiger Claw maneuvers from the Tome of Battle, for example), though none of them would allow an unlimited bypass.
Alright I'll keep that in mind.
To expand on that question, when they have two weapon fighting abilities and multiple attacks (i.e. 6th lvl fighter with a BaB of +6,+1) is the attacks "main hand, main hand, off hand" or "Main hand, off hand, main hand, off hand"?

We've had this dicussion multiple times in our various games and there is usually arguments between at the people who've DMed in the past. 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

i've always assumed it's up to the player.

like he has a 1d8 longsword
and another 1d8 longsword....
but lets say ones got fire enchant and ones ice.

he know the troll there filghting takes extra fire so he decides to take the majority of his attacks with his fire sword but he must atleast make one attack with his ice sword..or else it's not really two weapon fighting.


thats how anyone who ive ever played with has it done 
I don't think it matters which weapon you choose as the "off-hand" or the "main hand", but if you have a +6/+1 that means the main hand makes 2 attacks, your off-hand still only makes 1. That's is why the description for "improved two-weapon fighting" is "gain second off-hand attack". Second because you only have 1 before that.

Then when you get greater two-weapon fighting, you get a third off-hand attack, but you don't just get it for free.

In the longer feat description, it describes the normal state "Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon."
A single extra attack. Not extra attacks. Not "one extra attack per main-hand attack." One. Single. Attack.

So yeah, you're in the right again. By this point I'm assuming you have a rogue in the party who -really- likes doing ludicruous amounts of sneak attack damage :p What does he think will happen when he gets greater two-weapon fighting? He'll get 3 off-hand attacks per main-hand attack? I lol'd.
ahhh i believe there is a feat that allows both attacks to be made with a single attack roll, in 1 action. Two weapon rend maybe? My books aren't at my house right now, but i think its in complete warrior. higher level feat, if memory serves.
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You are Red/Blue!
ahhh i believe there is a feat that allows both attacks to be made with a single attack roll, in 1 action. Two weapon rend maybe? My books aren't at my house right now, but i think its in complete warrior. higher level feat, if memory serves.



Two Weapon Rend - After damaging a enemy with both weapons you do an extra 1d6 + 1 1/2 your strength.
Two Weapon Pounce - At the end of a charge you may make attack with both your primary and secondary off-hand weapon.  The +2 attack and -2 for two weapons cancel out.
Two Weapon Attack of Opprotunity - When doing a sneak attack you are able to make an attack with each of your weapons.  Normal penalties apply.

Then there is Improved two weapon where you get 2 attacks with off hand -2, -7
Then Greater Two Weapon with 3 attacks -2, -7, -12

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I stand corrected, maybe I  was thinking of that pounce one... anyway, excellent job.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
To expand on that question, when they have two weapon fighting abilities and multiple attacks (i.e. 6th lvl fighter with a BaB of +6,+1) is the attacks "main hand, main hand, off hand" or "Main hand, off hand, main hand, off hand"?

We've had this dicussion multiple times in our various games and there is usually arguments between at the people who've DMed in the past. 



All attacks by a single character are made in the order of highest attack bonus to lowest attack bonus, regardless of the source of the attack. If the attacks are made with equal attack bonus, the main attack comes first.
What you want is the feat called Dual Strike. I use it in combo with Two Weapon Rend on my Dwarf Ranger. Big note on this is you can not use this on a Charge, as it is a Standard Action. If you want to Charge and use Two Weapon Rend, get Two Weapon Pounce.

(Complete Adventurer,  p. 108) (Fighter bonus Feat, General Feat)
 
 You are an expert skirmisher skilled at fighting with two weapons. Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to attack with both while moving through a chaotic combat or fighting a running battle.

Prerequisite


Improved Two Weapon Fighting (PH),  Two- Weapon Fighting,   



Benefit


As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons' attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand, you take a -4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a -10 penalty. Each weapon deals its normal damage. Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each weapon attack.


Special


When you make this attack, you apply precision- based damage (such as from sneak attack) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the weapon in your primary hand deals extra critical hit damage; your offhand weapon deals regular damage. A fighter may select Dual Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.


I don't think it matters which weapon you choose as the "off-hand" or the "main hand", but if you have a +6/+1 that means the main hand makes 2 attacks, your off-hand still only makes 1. That's is why the description for "improved two-weapon fighting" is "gain second off-hand attack". Second because you only have 1 before that.

Then when you get greater two-weapon fighting, you get a third off-hand attack, but you don't just get it for free.

In the longer feat description, it describes the normal state "Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon."
A single extra attack. Not extra attacks. Not "one extra attack per main-hand attack." One. Single. Attack.

So yeah, you're in the right again. By this point I'm assuming you have a rogue in the party who -really- likes doing ludicruous amounts of sneak attack damage :p What does he think will happen when he gets greater two-weapon fighting? He'll get 3 off-hand attacks per main-hand attack? I lol'd.



It totally matter which hand is off hand and which is main hand, because off hand is half Str (round down) damage vs full Str damage for main hand.
For weapons, they would need to either fight with two light weapons or have the Oversized Off Hand Weapon Feat or the weapon damage is different. If they /are/ using two light weapons or the OOHW feat with two identical weapons, then it does not matter which hand is the 'main' hand. They still have to declair if the weapons are different in any way to avoid confusion. 

Otherwise the rest is correct.

To be frank, it is easier for the player to actually just roll one dice at a time or roll 2 dice per set (with the dice being different and one declaired to be off hand). Remember that a full on Fighter BAB character with all three TWF feats will end up with 7 attacks a turn at lvl 16.   

It totally matter which hand is off hand and which is main hand, because off hand is half Str (round down) damage vs full Str damage for main hand.



Well, yes, but it doesn't really matter which weapon you hold in the off-hand and which in the main hand as long as you apply the right strength bonus when hitting with only one. When you hit with both it doesn't matter which one was where at all, unless the target has some kind of damage reduction that'd be greater(not equal to) one of your hits if it was the off-hand, but not if it is the main hand.
 

Thus

  If they /are/ using two light weapons or the OOHW feat with two identical weapons, then it does not matter which hand is the 'main' hand.

. I had that covered.

As for the rest of your post, it still matters. You just don't roll two dice and pick which one is main hand after the fact, irregardless of damage reduction. If you roll a critical, your probably going to be getting damage through and thus it still matters. If it is something like a Golem or Bodak that ignores Criticals, well, then this just isn't your fight and you should switch to a single weapon and use it with two hands. And you better make sure that weapon isn't a light weapon then because you can't use a light weapon with two hands to get the 1.5 Str bonus.


  
i just gotta say....i was glad the OP posted this Q cuz i was really wondering about this too.   one of my players were making two attacks on a standard attack.  shame on him....shaaaame.  lol 

i shall now know for next time and shall correct him on this.  
 

Thus

  If they /are/ using two light weapons or the OOHW feat with two identical weapons, then it does not matter which hand is the 'main' hand.

. I had that covered.

As for the rest of your post, it still matters. You just don't roll two dice and pick which one is main hand after the fact, irregardless of damage reduction. If you roll a critical, your probably going to be getting damage through and thus it still matters. If it is something like a Golem or Bodak that ignores Criticals, well, then this just isn't your fight and you should switch to a single weapon and use it with two hands. And you better make sure that weapon isn't a light weapon then because you can't use a light weapon with two hands to get the 1.5 Str bonus.



You are so keen on finding mistakes in what I say and proving that you're right that you don't even bother actually reading what I say. Instead you build up a strawman, attack that and declare yourself the winner.


I never said you didn't have to know which of your dicerolls was which for the attack. You'll notice I quoted a part of your post where you were talking about DAMAGE. If you hit with both of your weapons, it is irrelevant which one was the off-hand, since you can just apply a total of twice your strength bonus to the overall damage. The only way this doesn't apply is with damage reduction, in the situation I described.


So yeah, very nice write-up about attack rolls, crits and using 2handed weapons(not sure why you started on that, since I definitely didn't say it didn't matter what weapon you'r eusing when fighting 2handed...). I'm just not sure how it relates to my post about damage rolls after the attacks have already been resolved, when I never said you wouldn't declare which one was the off-hand at that point.


There'll be enough people disagreeing with you on a forum, mate, no reason to create imaginary adversaries on top of that.

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